11638 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 29 November 2011 - 09:17 PM, said:

That is just "another coincidence"... right?

There are too many "coincidences" in this whole OLB thing.

Yes, there is alot. Well, you know what? I think it's quite possible that this JH Halbertsma did write it. I've been following him through as you have been mentioning him but there was so much being added indepth intricicies of a hoax theory it was hard to sort out what he was all about. I've been thinking long and hard lately, hence my few posts, more just deciding...

After all this time I am not convinced this OLB is genuine. It appears too contrived to me, information added for no reason to co-incidently explain connections - just too contrived, look that word up if you don't know it. My old dictionary: devised, invented, managed, artificed. Too set up, too planned.

For that reason it has me constantly challenging it's authenticity.

Now, on the other hand, statements by Ottema seem to really lean towards it's authenticity in age. But people are clever and I don't think it would have been imposible to get hold of old ink and/or paper, if you knew the right people and were in the right circles. So I think it's possible that is is written recently, on and using older paper and ink.


----------------

I found this info today of JH Halbertsma, so simple after all the other stuff. You might recall I said I thought Gysbert Japiex could have written the OLB but then I decided with the mention of 1806 he might be too early but look who Halbertsma was a fan of...needless to say this has gone a long way to have me thinking that Halbertsma did indeed write it. Not only that I think he shows inclinations to have wanted this information to be out there, being a Christian Mennonite imo is also a reason for his motives. He had also had a previous attempt at trying to show origins. He knew he could influence Frisian life.

Halbertsma, Justus Hiddes (1789-1869)
Justus Hiddes Halbertsma, born 23 October 1789, at Grouw, died 14 February 1869 at Deventer, served as Mennonite pastor at Bolsward 1814-1821, and Deventer 1821-1856, when he resigned to devote himself to writing. One of his works was De Doopsgezinden en Hunne herkomst (Deventer, 1843), in which he attempted  to prove a Waldensian origin for  the Mennonites. The book is of value for its information on the liberal ideas of Halbertsma and many Mennonites of his time. The book also contained some sermons, which were sharply criticized by Samuel Muller in the Dutch periodical Vaderlandsche Letteroefeningen of 1843 and 1844 (reprint, Beoordeeling van eenige Kerkredenen van  H. H., Amsterdam, 1844).

Halbertsma studied the Nordic languages, especially his native Frisian, and became a specialist on Gysbert Japiex (1603-1666), a Frisian poet. He cooperated with his brothers Eeltje, who was a physician in Grouw, and Tjalling, in publishing Frisian verse and tales, which were eagerly read and thus influenced Frisian life. He also translated the Gospel of Matthew into Frisian (1858). The complete Frisian works of the Halbertsma brothers were published in 1871 titled Rimen en Teltsjes (5th ed., Leeuwarden, 1918).
http://www.gameo.org...iddes_1789_1869

Haverschmidt probably had a hand in it too.

I'll call them H & H.

------------

In saying that, I do think ALOT of the story is based in truth, of what he knew to be Frisian history and possible knowledge of the real Over de Linden genealogy from information given by the Grandfather, who was the real instigator behind Cornelius even having it in the start.

I actually believe much of it at the same time, I think it's possible it can be alot of truth in it, of the Frisian history. It's like Plato wrote Atlantis "strange but true".

I think Cornelius was actually oblivious to it all. 1867 he received it. Halbertsma died 2 years later. C's grandfather may have had it first, given to him by Halbertsma (and Haverschmidt) after the 3 of them created it.

Basically it was written by H & H just prior to 1867 - given or written for his grandfather even by the 2 men, that's why the Linden name is used, with permission from grandfather. One of my first posts here had grandfather as a suspect and often my first gut feelings are right.

Grandfather and H & H organised this OLB book, and subsequently it was passed onto Cornelius, unaware it was a created book, therefore he did not lie at all - he would have genuinely thought it was what he was told it was.


Anyone got an opinion on that?

Edited by The Puzzler, 29 November 2011 - 11:36 PM.

[Knul]

The Puzzler, on 29 November 2011 - 11:32 PM, said:

Yes, there is alot. Well, you know what? I think it's quite possible that this JH Halbertsma did write it. I've been following him through as you have been mentioning him but there was so much being added indepth intricicies of a hoax theory it was hard to sort out what he was all about. I've been thinking long and hard lately, hence my few posts, more just deciding...

After all this time I am not convinced this OLB is genuine. It appears too contrived to me, information added for no reason to co-incidently explain connections - just too contrived, look that word up if you don't know it. My old dictionary: devised, invented, managed, artificed. Too set up, too planned.

For that reason it has me constantly challenging it's authenticity.

Now, on the other hand, statements by Ottema seem to really lean towards it's authenticity in age. But people are clever and I don't think it would have been imposible to get hold of old ink and/or paper, if you knew the right people and were in the right circles. So I think it's possible that is is written recently, on and using older paper and ink.


----------------

I found this info today of JH Halbertsma, so simple after all the other stuff. You might recall I said I thought Gysbert Japiex could have written the OLB but then I decided with the mention of 1806 he might be too early but look who Halbertsma was a fan of...needless to say this has gone a long way to have me thinking that Halbertsma did indeed write it. Not only that I think he shows inclinations to have wanted this information to be out there, being a Christian Mennonite imo is also a reason for his motives. He had also had a previous attempt at trying to show origins. He knew he could influence Frisian life.

Halbertsma, Justus Hiddes (1789-1869)
Justus Hiddes Halbertsma, born 23 October 1789, at Grouw, died 14 February 1869 at Deventer, served as Mennonite pastor at Bolsward 1814-1821, and Deventer 1821-1856, when he resigned to devote himself to writing. One of his works was De Doopsgezinden en Hunne herkomst (Deventer, 1843), in which he attempted  to prove a Waldensian origin for  the Mennonites. The book is of value for its information on the liberal ideas of Halbertsma and many Mennonites of his time. The book also contained some sermons, which were sharply criticized by Samuel Muller in the Dutch periodical Vaderlandsche Letteroefeningen of 1843 and 1844 (reprint, Beoordeeling van eenige Kerkredenen van  H. H., Amsterdam, 1844).

Halbertsma studied the Nordic languages, especially his native Frisian, and became a specialist on Gysbert Japiex (1603-1666), a Frisian poet. He cooperated with his brothers Eeltje, who was a physician in Grouw, and Tjalling, in publishing Frisian verse and tales, which were eagerly read and thus influenced Frisian life. He also translated the Gospel of Matthew into Frisian (1858). The complete Frisian works of the Halbertsma brothers were published in 1871 titled Rimen en Teltsjes (5th ed., Leeuwarden, 1918).
http://www.gameo.org...iddes_1789_1869

Haverschmidt probably had a hand in it too.

I'll call them H & H.

------------

In saying that, I do think ALOT of the story is based in truth, of what he knew to be Frisian history and possible knowledge of the real Over de Linden genealogy from information given by the Grandfather, who was the real instigator behind Cornelius even having it in the start.

I actually believe much of it at the same time, I think it's possible it can be alot of truth in it, of the Frisian history. It's like Plato wrote Atlantis "strange but true".

I think Cornelius was actually oblivious to it all. 1867 he received it. Halbertsma died 2 years later. C's grandfather may have had it first, given to him by Halbertsma (and Haverschmidt) after the 3 of them created it.

Basically it was written by H & H just prior to 1867 - given or written for his grandfather even by the 2 men, that's why the Linden name is used, with permission from grandfather. One of my first posts here had grandfather as a suspect and often my first gut feelings are right.

Grandfather and H & H organised this OLB book, and subsequently it was passed onto Cornelius, unaware it was a created book, therefore he did not lie at all - he would have genuinely thought it was what he was told it was.


Anyone got an opinion on that?

Unfortunately Haverschmidt denied dec. 1875. You find his letter on www.rodinbook.nl. Besides I am not aware of contacts between Haverschmidt and Halbertsma. The contacts of Halbertsma were mainly international. That the name of Haverschmidt has been mentioned is because he was a minister for a short time in Den Helder and because he shared the same ideas influenced by Volney as had Cornelis over de Linden and Ernest Stadermann and many others. The ideas may have influenced Halbertma as well, though I did not locate the book in his library. I think the ideas of Haverschmidt and Halbertsma did not differ that much as far as Roman priests/church are concerned. Verwijs was a common friend of Haverschmidt and Halbertsma, but again Verwijs denied in 1876 in the Oprechte Haagsche Courant, but his denial was not accepted for a long time.

Edited by Knul, 30 November 2011 - 02:18 AM.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 29 November 2011 - 09:17 PM, said:

That is just "another coincidence"... right?

There are too many "coincidences" in this whole OLB thing.

Yes, there are many 'conincidenses'. So I found, that J.H. Halbertsma published in 1922 on the word 'od'. You remember the discussions on Od. His translation would be woede, kwaad (meaning the devil), which comes close to Ottema's haat (hatred). Similarly in Od-in, W-od-an. Kolyn describes the Frisians as furious.

I met Jacques Fernaut at a SEM-meeting in Bakel (Breda).

I intend to put the text on my website, but that will take some time. He has added a text by Olauf Rudbeck, called Atlantica I (Uppsala och Stockholm) n.y. Maybe you can find that text online.

New challenge: I am not so much content with the translation of radbvwade = snel gebouwd (hastely builded). I suppose, that there is a connection with the name of Radboud, Redbad. Any idea ?

Edited by Knul, 30 November 2011 - 02:27 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Knul, on 30 November 2011 - 01:36 AM, said:

Unfortunately Haverschmidt denied dec. 1875. You find his letter on www.rodinbook.nl. Besides I am not aware of contacts between Haverschmidt and Halbertsma. The contacts of Halbertsma were mainly international. That the name of Haverschmidt has been mentioned is because he was a minister for a short time in Den Helder and because he shared the same ideas influenced by Volney as had Cornelis over de Linden and Ernest Stadermann and many others. The ideas may have influenced Halbertma as well, though I did not locate the book in his library. I think the ideas of Haverschmidt and Halbertsma did not differ that much as far as Roman priests/church are concerned. Verwijs was a common friend of Haverschmidt and Halbertsma, but again Verwijs denied in 1876 in the Oprechte Haagsche Courant, but his denial was not accepted for a long time.

If I take Haverschmidt out, the conclusion I gave above still stands, just Halbertsma and the grandfather. (With Halberstma's brother probably involved too.)

Edited by The Puzzler, 30 November 2011 - 02:50 AM.

[Otharus]

It would be interesting to know if Halbertsma and Over de Linden had a shared ancestry and therewith cultural background. It might explain similar interests and ideas they seemed to have had.

Here's a first rough setup of that of Halbertsma:

(* = birth; + = death; X = marriage; father is number doubled; mother number doubled plus 1)

1 Joost Halbertsma, * 23 oct 1789, Grouw; + 27 feb 1869, Deventer
- - -
2 Hidde Halbertsma , * 1 aug 1756, Grouw; + 17 jan 1809, Grouw; Master-baker and trader, captain of a brigade; X 18 may 1788, Grouw
3 Ruurdtje Binnerts, * jun 1767, Grouw; + 14 dec 1809, Grouw
- - -
4 Joost Halbertsma, * 16 aug 1723, Gorredijk; + 26 jun 1788, Grouw; trader in Grouw; X 28 dec 1749, Grouw
5 Berber Dirks, * 7 feb 1716, Grouw; + 8 jul 1802, Grouw
6 Tjalling Binnerts
7 Geertje Eeltjes
- - -
8 Hidde Halbetsma, * 20 feb 1685, Dokkum; + 21 dec 1762, Gorredijk; silversmith; X 7 mei 1713, Vledder
9 Romkjen Sinnema, * 19 mar 1689, Beesterzwaag; + 21 aug 1760, Gorredijk
10 Dirk Jelmers
11 Tetje Symons
[...]
- - -
16 Dr Scipio Halbetsma, * ca 1645, Kollum; + 1700, Westdongeradeel at Ternaard; Advocate for court Friesland, fiscal of Dokkum, procureur and subst.-secretary of Westdongeradeel at Ternaard; X 18 apr 1669, Dokkum
17 Catharina Rinia Stinstra, * Dokkum; + after 15 dec 1693
18 Jacobus Sinnema
19 Hiltje van Boelens
[...]
- - -
32 Hidde Buwes, * ?; + between 16 jun and 2 oct 1666; taylor, clothtrader in Kollum, owner of land and houses in Ee, Engwierum, Oldwolde, Augustinusga, Kollumerpomp and Kollum; X before 9 may 1634
33 Wytske Sipckes Halbetsma, * 10 oct 1614, Kollum; + before 16 jun 1666
34 Joost Rinia Stinstra
35 Antje Hendricks Stinstra
[...]
- - -
64 Buwe Hiddes, living in Ee between 1597-1623, owner of land and houses in Ee, Tibma, Anjum and Engwierum; + between 16 oct 1623 and 6 may 1626; X before 26 aug 1607
65 Yck Luytzen
66 Sipcke Lubbes Halbetsma
67 Gerck Hendrix
[...]

Source: http://www.cervantes....HTM#P8697F5888

Edited by Otharus, 30 November 2011 - 08:01 AM.

[Alewyn]

Otharus, on 30 November 2011 - 07:08 AM, said:

It would be interesting to know if Halbertsma and Over de Linden had a shared ancestry and therewith cultural background. It might explain similar interests and ideas they seemed to have had.

If the essay by Cornelis over de Linden to his grandson Cornelis III is anything to go by, he only knew about his Frisian descend from hearsay or family lore. According to him, he went to Friesland for the first time in his life in 1867.

“Toen ik van Harlingen hoorde, dacht ik, nu heb je, om zoo te zeggen, tot aan het andere eindje van de wereld geweest, en Friesland, vanwaar men zegt dat uw voorouders afstammen, heb je nooit gezien”.

When I heard Harlingen, I thought “Here you have, so to say, been to the other end of the world and Friesland, where people say your ancestors came from, you have never seen.”

It is also apparent that, despite the family tradition mentioned above, he did not see himself in the first place as a Frisian but rather as a Hollander. Note the following “them and us” type of sentiment:

“Daar hij het handschrift zelf gezien had, vond ik die vraag zoo gek, dat ik mij ging verbeelden, dat die Friezen een loopje met mij namen.”

“As he had seen the manuscript, I found the question ridiculous and thought the Frisians were taking me for a ride”.

From the aforementioned, it thus sounds unlikely that C.o.d.L. had much incentive to identify with the Frisians or to have promoted their cause.

If, however, one regards the whole OLB as a very elaborate hoax, the above evidence is not permissable..

[Otharus]

To avoid a misunderstanding:

My interest in the ancestry of Halbertsma does not come from a suspicion that he might have created the manuscript, but rather, that he had a more than average interest in etymology and history, because his ancestors knew (some of) the content of it.

Cornelis' ancestors may not always have kept the manuscript a total secret. There may still be copies or other versions in private collections. Jan Over de Linden, Cornelis' great-grandfather may even have left Leeuwarden because he got in trouble talking or publishing about it. All speculation, I know. But we need that to keep our minds open for all different possible scenarios. I still hope to find out more about the OL genealogy.

Edited by Otharus, 30 November 2011 - 09:49 AM.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 30 November 2011 - 01:42 AM, said:

Yes, there are many 'conincidenses'. So I found, that J.H. Halbertsma published in 1822 on the word 'od'. You remember the discussions on Od. His translation would be woede, kwaad (meaning the devil), which comes close to Ottema's haat (hatred). Similarly in Od-in, W-od-an. Kolyn describes the Frisians as furious.

I met Jacques Fernaut at a SEM-meeting in Bakel (Breda).

I intend to put the text on my website, but that will take some time. He has added a text by Olauf Rudbeck, called Atlantica I (Uppsala och Stockholm) n.y. Maybe you can find that text online.

New challenge: I am not so much content with the translation of radbvwade = snel gebouwd (hastely builded). I suppose, that there is a connection with the name of Radboud, Redbad. Any idea ?

I will try to find the text by Rudbeck. But I have tried before many times, and I never found his work online.

And can you give us the sentence in the OLB with this "radbvwade"? I think you didn't spell it correctly.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 November 2011 - 10:58 AM.

[Alewyn]

Otharus, on 30 November 2011 - 09:48 AM, said:

To avoid a misunderstanding:

My interest in the ancestry of Halbertsma does not come from a suspicion that he might have created the manuscript, but rather, that he had a more than average interest in etymology and history, because his ancestors knew (some of) the content of it.

Cornelis' ancestors may not always have kept the manuscript a total secret. There may still be copies or other versions in private collections. Jan Over de Linden, Cornelis' great-grandfather may even have left Leeuwarden because he got in trouble talking or publishing about it. All speculation, I know. But we need that to keep our minds open for all different possible scenarios. I still hope to find out more about the OL genealogy.

Thanks for clarifying that.

[Abramelin]

Otharus, on 30 November 2011 - 09:48 AM, said:

To avoid a misunderstanding:

My interest in the ancestry of Halbertsma does not come from a suspicion that he might have created the manuscript, but rather, that he had a more than average interest in etymology and history, because his ancestors knew (some of) the content of it.

Cornelis' ancestors may not always have kept the manuscript a total secret. There may still be copies or other versions in private collections. Jan Over de Linden, Cornelis' great-grandfather may even have left Leeuwarden because he got in trouble talking or publishing about it. All speculation, I know. But we need that to keep our minds open for all different possible scenarios. I still hope to find out more about the OL genealogy.

After what we posted about Halbertsma's fanatical interest in anything Frisian (history, language, customs) I assume he would have hinted at there being some sort of 'ancient and unknown manuscript' about the history of the Frisians without disclosing exactly what or where it was.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 30 November 2011 - 10:41 AM, said:

I will try to find the text by Rudbeck. But I have tried before many times, and I never found his work online.

And can you give us the sentence in the OLB with this "radbvwade"? I think you didn't spell it correctly.

.

Raedbvwde Lyda. En store bâm kvn hju bűgja aend sahwersa hja run ne braek nęne blomstâl vnder hjara fyt.

Weldige Lyda. Haerd was hjra steme aend kręt hju ut grimme sâ run ek flux węi.            [p. 14]

[Knul]

Otharus, on 30 November 2011 - 07:08 AM, said:

It would be interesting to know if Halbertsma and Over de Linden had a shared ancestry and therewith cultural background. It might explain similar interests and ideas they seemed to have had.

Here's a first rough setup of that of Halbertsma:

(* = birth; + = death; X = marriage; father is number doubled; mother number doubled plus 1)

1 Joost Halbertsma, * 23 oct 1789, Grouw; + 27 feb 1869, Deventer
- - -
2 Hidde Halbertsma , * 1 aug 1756, Grouw; + 17 jan 1809, Grouw; Master-baker and trader, captain of a brigade; X 18 may 1788, Grouw
3 Ruurdtje Binnerts, * jun 1767, Grouw; + 14 dec 1809, Grouw
- - -
4 Joost Halbertsma, * 16 aug 1723, Gorredijk; + 26 jun 1788, Grouw; trader in Grouw; X 28 dec 1749, Grouw
5 Berber Dirks, * 7 feb 1716, Grouw; + 8 jul 1802, Grouw
6 Tjalling Binnerts
7 Geertje Eeltjes
- - -
8 Hidde Halbetsma, * 20 feb 1685, Dokkum; + 21 dec 1762, Gorredijk; silversmith; X 7 mei 1713, Vledder
9 Romkjen Sinnema, * 19 mar 1689, Beesterzwaag; + 21 aug 1760, Gorredijk
10 Dirk Jelmers
11 Tetje Symons
[...]
- - -
16 Dr Scipio Halbetsma, * ca 1645, Kollum; + 1700, Westdongeradeel at Ternaard; Advocate for court Friesland, fiscal of Dokkum, procureur and subst.-secretary of Westdongeradeel at Ternaard; X 18 apr 1669, Dokkum
17 Catharina Rinia Stinstra, * Dokkum; + after 15 dec 1693
18 Jacobus Sinnema
19 Hiltje van Boelens
[...]
- - -
32 Hidde Buwes, * ?; + between 16 jun and 2 oct 1666; taylor, clothtrader in Kollum, owner of land and houses in Ee, Engwierum, Oldwolde, Augustinusga, Kollumerpomp and Kollum; X before 9 may 1634
33 Wytske Sipckes Halbetsma, * 10 oct 1614, Kollum; + before 16 jun 1666
34 Joost Rinia Stinstra
35 Antje Hendricks Stinstra
[...]
- - -
64 Buwe Hiddes, living in Ee between 1597-1623, owner of land and houses in Ee, Tibma, Anjum and Engwierum; + between 16 oct 1623 and 6 may 1626; X before 26 aug 1607
65 Yck Luytzen
66 Sipcke Lubbes Halbetsma
67 Gerck Hendrix
[...]

Source: http://www.cervantes....HTM#P8697F5888

I have a complete genealogy of Halbertsma on my website rodinbook.nl. I make it available. It's to large to print here.

[Abramelin]

An Obbema suggests (among other things) that the contact between Cornelis Over de Linden and Joost Halbertsma could have taken place through Halbertsma's son who was a naval officer:



http://www.archiefle...linda,kleinzon#

++

EDIT:

On Knul's site I read just now this son is "Binnert Halbertsma" :

http://rodinbook.nl/...hronologie.html

.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 November 2011 - 12:38 PM.

[Abramelin]

“Carricaturen der
Halbertsma’s"

Ien fan de moaiste ôfbyldingen
is sûnder mis de tekening yn
kleur fan de hiele húshâlding
fan de Halbertsma’s. Joast is der
op ôfbylde, de mem, Johanna
Iskje Hoekema, de fiif soannen,
Petrus, Hidde, Watse, Tjalling
en Binnert, mar ek de hûn Apol,
de kat, de kanarje en de hinnen.

See page 8 of this PDF:
http://images.tresoa...etterhoeke1.pdf

English:

Caricatures of the family Halbertsma:

One of the nicest images is without a doubt the drawing in color of the whole Halbertsma household. Joast is shown, the mother, Johanna Iskje Hoekema, the five sons, Petrus, Hidde, Watse, Tjalling and Binnert, but also the dog Apol, the cat, the canary and the chickens.

Bwuahahahaha !!! Apol was the name of their dog !!!

And I will bet their cat was called "Adela" !!

The drawing from the PDF:


De hiele húshâlding fan Joast Halbertsma, tekene troch Petrus Halbertsma (?)
(The whole household of Joast Halbertsma, a drawing by Petrus Halbertsma (?))

.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 November 2011 - 01:27 PM.

[Alewyn]

Some well-known conspiracy theories:
1. “The Holocaust never happened”
2. “ Lee Harvey Oswald did not kill Kennedy”,
3. “The Americans never landed on the moon”, and
4. “The Oera Linda Book is a Hoax”

In every case the facts far outweigh the speculation and conjecture of those advancing their individual conspiracy theories. It is, nevertheless, astonishing how many people (and those that preach these conspiracies) actually believe these.

Halbertsma’s so-called involvement was first raised a hundred years after the Oera Linda Book surfaced. In the 19th century nobody even considered him to be a suspect. Yet, now, him being the mastermind behind the creation of the OLB, is being flaunted as fact. At the same time we are continuously being told that the guys in the 19th century “were not stupid/fools”.

The inconsistencies in the arguments of the conspiracy / hoax theorists just never seem to stop.