11638 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

Apol, Adela’s husband; three times a sea-king; Grevetman of Ostflyland and Lindaoorden. The towns Liudgarda, Lindahem, and Stavia are under his care.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/


OK, so the Halbertsma's had a dog called Apol.

We see his son Binnert portrayed as a young boy, so that might give us an idea when Halbertsma created this 'grevetman Apol'.

Apol, a guard dog; they must have taken him on walkies to Leeuwarden, the Lindenoord mansion of the Van Haren family, and Stavoren, and let him 'mark' the linden-trees he encountered, lol. No doubt he was also fond of swimming, retrieving sticks from the water ("sea-king").


+++++++++++++

EDIT:

Binnert Willem Anne Halbertsma was born 06 APR 1833 in Deventer, and died 10 JUN 1861 in Amsterdam.

http://wc.rootsweb.a...ollema&id=I9990



•ID: I9983
•Name: Binnert Willem Anne Halbertsma
•Sex: M
•Birth: 06 APR 1833 in Deventer 1
•Death: 10 JUN 1861 in Amsterdam 2
•Burial: 13 JUN 1861 Amsterdam 2
•Occupation: luitenant-ter-zee 2e kl..
•Change Date: 29 MAR 2006

Father: Justus \ Joost \ Joast \ Hiddes Halbertsma b: 23 OCT 1789 in Grouw
Mother: Johanna Iskjen Hoekema b: 06 APR 1794 in Workum c: 16 APR 1794 in Workum

http://wc.rootsweb.a...ollema&id=I9983


And click on all the names of the Halbertsmas here:
http://wc.rootsweb.a...ollema&id=I9990

.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 November 2011 - 01:53 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Alewyn, on 30 November 2011 - 09:21 AM, said:

If the essay by Cornelis over de Linden to his grandson Cornelis III is anything to go by, he only knew about his Frisian descend from hearsay or family lore. According to him, he went to Friesland for the first time in his life in 1867.

“Toen ik van Harlingen hoorde, dacht ik, nu heb je, om zoo te zeggen, tot aan het andere eindje van de wereld geweest, en Friesland, vanwaar men zegt dat uw voorouders afstammen, heb je nooit gezien”.

When I heard Harlingen, I thought “Here you have, so to say, been to the other end of the world and Friesland, where people say your ancestors came from, you have never seen.”

It is also apparent that, despite the family tradition mentioned above, he did not see himself in the first place as a Frisian but rather as a Hollander. Note the following “them and us” type of sentiment:

“Daar hij het handschrift zelf gezien had, vond ik die vraag zoo gek, dat ik mij ging verbeelden, dat die Friezen een loopje met mij namen.”

“As he had seen the manuscript, I found the question ridiculous and thought the Frisians were taking me for a ride”.

From the aforementioned, it thus sounds unlikely that C.o.d.L. had much incentive to identify with the Frisians or to have promoted their cause.

If, however, one regards the whole OLB as a very elaborate hoax, the above evidence is not permissable..

What you say seems to fly in the face of this account:

Fragment of the letter from Cornelis Over de Linden to Eelco Verwijs of 7 October 1867, introducing the manuscript, now known as OLB. (My improvised translation, from "De Gemaskerde God", page 237; from now on I'll refer to this book as DGG.)

Dear sir!
When in my childhood I visited my grandparents in Enkhuizen, and my grandfather (he was a master carpenter) spoke to me in confidence, he used to say: "You speak fancy now, but you must remember that we are not of Hollandic, but of pure Frisian blood, when you're older I'll explain all that, because your father doesn't care about it.

This came from the search function, from one of Otharus posts and I clearly recall it.


I don't think it's a 'very elaborate hoax'. It only has to be written by Halbertsma, his brother and with the grandfather involved to bring the Oera Linda name into it, he's the one pushing it onto Cornelis the whole time.

Cornelis would also be innocent of any knowledge or lying, he would have been completely oblivious to the writing.

----------------

Apol the dog Abe? lol You're kidding! Now that would be a co-incidence indeed.

Edited by The Puzzler, 30 November 2011 - 02:30 PM.

[Abramelin]

Abramelin, on 30 November 2011 - 01:43 PM, said:

Apol, Adela’s husband; three times a sea-king; Grevetman of Ostflyland and Lindaoorden. The towns Liudgarda, Lindahem, and Stavia are under his care.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/


OK, so the Halbertsma's had a dog called Apol.

We see his son Binnert portrayed as a young boy, so that might give us an idea when Halbertsma created this 'grevetman Apol'.

Apol, a guard dog; they must have taken him on walkies to Leeuwarden, the Lindenoord mansion of the Van Haren family, and Stavoren, and let him 'mark' the linden-trees he encountered, lol. No doubt he was also fond of swimming, retrieving sticks from the water ("sea-king").


+++++++++++++

EDIT:

Binnert Willem Anne Halbertsma was born 06 APR 1833 in Deventer, and died 10 JUN 1861 in Amsterdam.

http://wc.rootsweb.a...ollema&id=I9990



•ID: I9983
•Name: Binnert Willem Anne Halbertsma
•Sex: M
•Birth: 06 APR 1833 in Deventer 1
•Death: 10 JUN 1861 in Amsterdam 2
•Burial: 13 JUN 1861 Amsterdam 2
•Occupation: luitenant-ter-zee 2e kl..
•Change Date: 29 MAR 2006

Father: Justus \ Joost \ Joast \ Hiddes Halbertsma b: 23 OCT 1789 in Grouw
Mother: Johanna Iskjen Hoekema b: 06 APR 1794 in Workum c: 16 APR 1794 in Workum

http://wc.rootsweb.a...ollema&id=I9983


And click on all the names of the Halbertsmas here:
http://wc.rootsweb.a...ollema&id=I9990

.

A bit more about Halbertsma's dog Apol:

Maar vooreerst genoeg over de prediker, die lak had aan de deftigheid
van zijn hervormde collega's in toga, en die volgens de verhalen zijn hond
Apol, met een bef voor, de straat opjoeg om daarvan blijk te geven. Dit
speelde zich af in de stad, waarheen hij in 1821 was beroepen en waar hij was
gearriveerd om er tot zijn dood toe te blijven.

English:


But for now enough about the preacher who didn't give a damn about the pompous behaviour of his reformed collegues in their gowns, and who according to stories chased his dog Apol out on the streets with a pair of starched bands around its neck to demonstrate his dislike. This occurred in 1821 in the city to which he was called and where he would stay until his death.

http://www.historisc...B4D78F/0/07.pdf

This is an example of how his 'collegues' were dressed back then:



.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 November 2011 - 02:59 PM.

[The Puzzler]

So it appears to me Halbertsma himself was a Frisian who lived and died in the Netherlands. His sentiments imo match basically what the grandfather said about speaking fancy, but they were both Frisians, not Hollanders - a reason for writing this book and becoming a specialist on Frisian itself., his families lines there in those links are Amsterdam etc...

Halbertsma studied the Nordic languages, especially his native Frisian, and became a specialist on Gysbert Japiex (1603-1666), a Frisian poet.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 30 November 2011 - 02:13 PM, said:

Apol the dog Abe? lol You're kidding! Now that would be a co-incidence indeed.

Now you understand why I loved that line from this grandson of Over de Linden, telling us that late at night "two learned gentlemen" came around to visit his grandfather, and the three of them often roared with laughter!

When I found out about Halbertsma's dog being called "Apol", I nearly choked, hahaha !!

Knul, on 26 November 2011 - 10:56 PM, said:

Van der Mey has tried to identify members of the Frisian Society under names, which are recorded in the OLB. We have no idea, who are meant by Storo, Enoch (eenoog ?), Apol, Abelo, Dunros etc. This aspect has not yet been investigated.

I wonder how Halbertsma called his cat and chickens, lol.

"Eenoog" ("One-eye"), the cat?

Btw, Menno, the word for eye in the OLB and the Old Frisian dictionary is "age".



.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 November 2011 - 03:27 PM.

[The Puzzler]

He was a Mennonite. A Christian group.

The Mennonites are a group of Christian Anabaptist denominations named after the Frisian Menno Simons (1496–1561), who, through his writings, articulated and thereby formalized the teachings of earlier Swiss founders. The teachings of the Mennonites were founded on their belief in both the mission and ministry of Jesus Christ, which they held to with great conviction despite persecution by the various Roman Catholic and Protestant states.


These forerunners of modern Mennonites were part of the broad reaction against the practices and theology of the Roman Catholic Church known as the Protestant Reformation. Its most distinguishing feature is the rejection of infant baptism, an act that had both religious and political meaning since almost every infant born in western Europe was baptized into the Roman Catholic Church. Other significant theological views of the Mennonites developed in opposition to Roman Catholic views or to the views of other Protestant reformers such as Martin Luther and Huldrych Zwingli.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mennonite

Menno Simons (1496 – 31 January 1561) was an Anabaptist religious leader from the Friesland region of the Low Countries. Simons was a contemporary of the Protestant Reformers and his followers became known as Mennonites. "Menno Simons" (/ˈmɛnoː ˈsimɔns/) is a dutchification; his actual, Frisian name was Minne Simens (/ˈmɪnə ˈsimn̩s/).
http://en.wikipedia....ki/Menno_Simons

'Dutchification', that's a good word.

These people are against exactly what the OLB is talking about.

[Knul]

Alewyn, on 30 November 2011 - 01:09 PM, said:

Some well-known conspiracy theories:
1. “The Holocaust never happened”
2. “ Lee Harvey Oswald did not kill Kennedy”,
3. “The Americans never landed on the moon”, and
4. “The Oera Linda Book is a Hoax”

In every case the facts far outweigh the speculation and conjecture of those advancing their individual conspiracy theories. It is, nevertheless, astonishing how many people (and those that preach these conspiracies) actually believe these.

Halbertsma’s so-called involvement was first raised a hundred years after the Oera Linda Book surfaced. In the 19th century nobody even considered him to be a suspect. Yet, now, him being the mastermind behind the creation of the OLB, is being flaunted as fact. At the same time we are continuously being told that the guys in the 19th century “were not stupid/fools”.

The inconsistencies in the arguments of the conspiracy / hoax theorists just never seem to stop.

It has been decided in 1876-1877 that the OLB is a hoax and that has been accepted widely. Your 4. should read 'The Oera Linda Book is not a Hoax" to compare it with 1. never, 2. not, 3. never. Just a matter of logic.

[Knul]

Abramelin, on 30 November 2011 - 03:19 PM, said:

Now you understand why I loved that line from this grandson of Over de Linden, telling us that late at night "two learned gentlemen" came around to visit his grandfather, and the three of them often roared with laughter!

When I found out about Halbertsma's dog being called "Apol", I nearly choked, hahaha !!



I wonder how Halbertsma called his cat and chickens, lol.

"Eenoog" ("One-eye"), the cat?

Btw, Menno, the word for eye in the OLB and the Old Frisian dictionary is "age".



.

You never know. It has also been said, that the names refer to his sons.

[The Puzzler]

If that line you gave is in context to Cornelis' overhearing his own Grandfather and the 2 learned men (who could be Brothers H) saying that, then, yes, that is what I'd say they were talking about.

I don't think it's Haverschmidt or anyone else invloved, I believe Halbertsma would have been very familiar with all knowledge on the Frisian language.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 30 November 2011 - 03:50 PM, said:

You never know. It has also been said, that the names refer to his sons.

You mean that Petrus, Hidde, Watse, Tjalling and Binnert were Storo, Enoch, Apol, Abelo, and Dunroos.

Well, you'll have to admit that it's another bloody coincidence that of all people it is Halbersma who had a dog called "Apol", and already in 1821.

And not only that, but read what he used his dog for.

Btw, I found 'an' Abelo:

Abelo Tamminga, a 'zijlrechter':

http://books.google....iesland&f=false

A 'zijlrechter' was a supervisor of sails, sluices and seawalls:

http://books.google....lregter&f=false

.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 November 2011 - 04:14 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 30 November 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

If that line you gave is in context to Cornelis' overhearing his own Grandfather and the 2 learned men (who could be Brothers H) saying that, then, yes, that is what I'd say they were talking about.

I don't think it's Haverschmidt or anyone else invloved, I believe Halbertsma would have been very familiar with all knowledge on the Frisian language.

I'd like to know who these "two learned men" were.

This grandson - Floris August Over de Linden -  must have seen photos of all the socalled 'suspects' later in his life, so he could have recognized them.

http://www.krul.org/...1070935737.html

.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 November 2011 - 04:27 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 30 November 2011 - 04:18 PM, said:

I'd like to know who these "two learned men" were.

This grandson - Floor -  must have seen photos of all the socalled 'suspects' later in his life, so he could have recognized them.

Was the grandson Cornelis' overhearing his grandfather (a suspect imo) and 2 men?

Or are you talking of someone different?

I mean was it Cornelis who you mean was listening to his grandfather?

[Abramelin]

It's this Floris:

Otharus, on 06 November 2011 - 09:23 AM, said:

Yes, you <skipped> it (Letter of Riek Mulder-Pomper, signed Santpoort, 7 Oct. 1965):


Letter signed Santpoort, 7 Oct. 1965 from Riek Mulder-Pomper.

(From 1917 she had shared house with the widow of a grandson of Cornelis I, Floris August Over de Linden (1863-ca.1910), who had lived in the house of his grandfather in the 1860-s)

"... as a very little child he was brought to his grandfather. This grandfather must have been a very funny man, who was fooling everyone around and was always telling strange stories and said things that make you laugh. In one summer a few 'learned doctors from Leeuwarden', as the grandfather called them, came to visit, and took him out to go sailing. But there was a day, that the grandfather no longer joined, but was writing all day on big sheets of paper. He had fun, but never wanted to tell the little boy why. In the evening the 'learned doctors' came and grandfather would read to them what he had written during the day. Then they laughed loudly, and Floor had heard them shout: they'll be surprised and they'll never believe it! Years later, when he heard about the controversy around the book and had a good think about it, he went to his oldest brother Cor [= Cornelis III] (there was also a sister Brecht) and told him, that it was all nonsense, as he himself had seen Grandfather write the book [aged 5 or 6 years old!].
But Cor had become furious and had said, that he had no clue, that he should mind his own business, and keep his mouth shut, because after all the book said that they descended from kings! So he kept it for himself, he no longer could ask his grandfather, who had already passed away, and therefore he informed his wife about it. And Mrs. O.d.L. told me, probably because she thought, that at least someone should know. But first I had to solemnly promise her to never speak about it with anyone 'because of the sensitivity of the family'."

Jensma:
This note creates a difficulty though. Because the children arrived in Holland a long time after Verwijs had written the state officials and for more than one-and-a-half year had tried to introduce the manuscript into the world. One would say, that the witness report about Floris can therefore not be true. At second thought though another, much better explanation presents itself, namely that Over de Linden had not completely finished the manuscript in the beginning of 1869 and that the events that Floris remembered occurred not before the summer of 1869.

[Footnote:]
In his report [to state officials!!!] about the manuscript of 1867 Verwijs wrote, that it 'contains about 200 pages in 4, the last part of which apparently is missing though...'. The usual interpretation of this is obviously that the OLB ends at page 210 in the middle of a sentence which (indeed) suggests that part is missing. But one can also interpret it, that the last part was missing and therefore still had to be made or finished. Based on existing writings that still needed editing, he estimated the expected size of the book at 200 pages.

[The Puzzler]

Is the 'grandfather' Cornelis I  in that story Cornelis' grandfather?

-------------

Got it, so he could have been involved in writing it. I reckon it's right, it's Justus H. Halbertsma and his brother as well as Cornelis' grandfather.

Edited by The Puzzler, 30 November 2011 - 04:54 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 30 November 2011 - 04:43 PM, said:

Is the 'grandfather' Cornelis I  in that story Cornelis' grandfather?

Dang...lol.

This is not my territory, but as far as I get it, Floris' grandfather is THE Cornelis Over de Linden with whom the whole story started.

http://www.krul.org/...1070935737.html



Vader (father): over de Linden, Floris August

grootvader (grandfather): Linden, Cornelis over de  
grootmoeder {grandmother): Visser, Trijntje Johanna