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[Archived]Oera Linda Book and the Great Flood


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#9121    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 11:13 PM

Firstly Abe, I do not 'want' to attach anything to Egypt etc, it's fairly obvious to me, if we are looking at Neptune, Minerva etc, that these cows with golden corns will relate to the Sun God...or we can forget about any reference that seems to be a Greek/Roman God imo.

The Magyar were like Egyptian priests so it would be likely imo they would share some kind of religious culture - that of the Sun cow. Your golden horns are great but there is no 'ky' attached to them.

Second, my blather on Balder and Freya comes from trying to work out exactly what Frya is, sorry that's going OT - but it all relates to the Juul so is kinda OLB related in the long run. My mission is to see if anything mentioned in Norse inc. language went into other cultures - so my posts may contain references and info that is not interesting to you or seems connected - but it is - that's OK, just bypass it if you like.

3rdly - I think your idea is good for the collection of ideas for a word but I think it would be very hard, since we all have such different ideas. I can be concise when I want to be.

Edited by The Puzzler, 29 December 2011 - 11:14 PM.

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#9122    Abramelin

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 11:29 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 29 December 2011 - 11:13 PM, said:

Firstly Abe, I do not 'want' to attach anything to Egypt etc, it's fairly obvious to me, if we are looking at Neptune, Minerva etc, that these cows with golden corns will relate to the Sun God...or we can forget about any reference that seems to be a Greek/Roman God imo.

The Magyar were like Egyptian priests so it would be likely imo they would share some kind of religious culture - that of the Sun cow. Your golden horns are great but there is no 'ky' attached to them.

Second, my blather on Balder and Freya comes from trying to work out exactly what Frya is, sorry that's going OT - but it all relates to the Juul so is kinda OLB related in the long run. My mission is to see if anything mentioned in Norse inc. language went into other cultures - so my posts may contain references and info that is not interesting to you or seems connected - but it is - that's OK, just bypass it if you like.

3rdly - I think your idea is good for the collection of ideas for a word but I think it would be very hard, since we all have such different ideas. I can be concise when I want to be.

-3- At least we could post a CORRECT transliteration; even that first step was messed up by dear old Ottema.

As far as I know everyone agreed he made many mistakes while transliterating.

And the transliteration is the bases of everything else.

I also think we could agree on the translation into English: instead of translating - for instance - Kadik into Cadiz, we just post "Kadik", we don't say "Mediterranean" but "Middle Sea", and so on.

We leave the interpretation to others, or post what we all think it could mean in footnotes.

-2- I didn't say that what you posted was not interesting to me, I just didn't get your point.

-1- What you thought was obvious is nothing but the intention of those who created the OLB. Even a Knul falls into that trap.

And "ky" is nothing else but Old Frisian and Old Germanic and Old Dutch for 'cows'.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 December 2011 - 11:34 PM.


#9123    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 11:42 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 December 2011 - 11:29 PM, said:

-3- At least we could post a CORRECT transliteration; even that first step was messed up by dear old Ottema.

As far as I know everyone agreed he made many mistakes while transliterating.

And the transliteration is the bases of everything else.

I also think we could agree on the translation into English: instead of translating - for instance - Kadik into Cadiz, we just post "Kadik", we don't say "Mediterranean" but "Middle Sea", and so on.

We leave the interpretation to others, or post what we all think it could mean in footnotes.

-2- I didn't say that what you posted was not interesting to me, I just didn't get your point.

-1- What you thought was obvious is nothing but the intention of those who created the OLB. Even a Knul falls into that trap.

And "ky" is nothing else but Old Frisian and Old Germanic and Old Dutch for 'cows'.
I know that ky is cows, what do you think cows with golden horns is then? I know, you think it means an empty promise - but why would it mean that? I told you the answer. Promising an 'afterlife' or eternal life was not actually going to happen.

Hathor is a solar cow.

Hathor (Egyptian: Ḥwt-Ḥr, "Mansion of Horus"),[1] is an Ancient Egyptian goddess who personified the principles of love, beauty, music, motherhood and joy.[2] She was one of the most important and popular deities throughout the history of Ancient Egypt. Hathor was worshiped by Royalty and common people alike in whose tombs she is depicted as "Mistress of the West" welcoming the dead into the next life.[3] In other roles she was a goddess of music, dance, foreign lands and fertility who helped women in childbirth,[3] as well as the patron goddess of miners.[4]

The cult of Hathor pre-dates the historical period and the roots of devotion to her are, therefore, difficult to trace, though it may be a development of predynastic cults who venerated the fertility, and nature in general, represented by cows.[5]

Hathor is commonly depicted as a cow goddess with head horns in which is set a sun disk with Uraeus. Twin feathers are also sometimes shown in later periods as well as a menat necklace.[5] Hathor may be the cow goddess who is depicted from an early date on the Narmer Palette and on a stone urn dating from the 1st dynasty that suggests a role as sky-goddess and a relationship to Horus who, as a sun god, is "housed" in her.[5]

The Ancient Egyptians viewed reality as multi-layered in which deities who merge together for various reasons, whilst retaining divergent attributes and myths, were not seen as contradictory but complementary.[6] In a complicated relationship Hathor is at times the mother, daughter and wife of Ra and, like Isis, is at times described as the mother of Horus, and associated with Bast.[5]

The cult of Osiris promised eternal life to those deemed morally worthy. Originally the justified dead, male or female, became an Osiris but by early Roman times females became identified with Hathor and men with Osiris.[7]

The Ancient Greeks identified Hathor with the goddess Aphrodite and the Romans as Venus.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor

Considering a Magi type caste were the Egyptian priests, I see no reason why the Magyar were not offering up a Hathor type Goddess to the Fryans.

Edited by The Puzzler, 29 December 2011 - 11:44 PM.

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#9124    Abramelin

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Posted 29 December 2011 - 11:54 PM

Puzz, "promising cows with golden horns" is an ancient Dutch proverb.

It means nothing but an empty promise.

And *I* told you that from the start of this discussion about that sentence in the OLB.

Find me another, older, and foreign (= not European) source of that proverb, and you will fail.

It's like the English "hook, line and sinker" saying: you won't find it in any other language or culture.


#9125    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 12:30 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 December 2011 - 11:54 PM, said:

Puzz, "promising cows with golden horns" is an ancient Dutch proverb.

It means nothing but an empty promise.

And *I* told you that from the start of this discussion about that sentence in the OLB.

Find me another, older, and foreign (= not European) source of that proverb, and you will fail.

It's like the English "hook, line and sinker" saying: you won't find it in any other language or culture.
It became a quote that meant an empty promise, I don't don't doubt that - you do have a history before the Dutch proverb came along you know...think about why it means an empty promise and why it became a proverb that meant that.

It's probably an ancient proverb because as the OLB tells us this is exactly what happened, to Northern Europe, according to the OLB.

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
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#9126    Abramelin

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 12:41 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 December 2011 - 12:30 AM, said:

It became a quote that meant an empty promise, I don't don't doubt that - you do have a history before the Dutch proverb came along you know...think about why it means an empty promise and why it became a proverb that meant that.

It's probably an ancient proverb because as the OLB tells us this is exactly what happened, to Northern Europe, according to the OLB.

No. YOU think about why it became a proverb about an empty promise.


#9127    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 12:58 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 30 December 2011 - 12:41 AM, said:

No. YOU think about why it became a proverb about an empty promise.
I told you why, there is no afterlife. What was promised from the cows with golden horns, didn't materialise. It was an empty promise.

Proverbs usually have a reason for becoming a proverb to start with.

Even if it means empty promise by the time the OLB is written and used in the book in that manner, it doesn't mean that the Solar Cow wasn't bought into Nth. Europe by Easterners c. 2000BC. That would be the original meaning of the proverb imo.

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
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#9128    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 03:25 AM

They found on Knossos the cow/bull with golden horns. It also has a sun on his head.

http://books.google....n horns&f=false

The Golden Horn at the Bosphorus. http://www.livius.or.../bosphorus.html

The concept is way more ancient than the Dutch proverb although I don't doubt the proverb comes from it.

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
Flagpole Sitta - Harvey Danger

#9129    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 04:38 AM

Wish-fulfilling Cow
Cows represent the All-good.  The image of fruits of nature emerging from a cow's horn -- a horn of plenty -- is tied to the Cow of Plenty of Indian mythology, whose name is Surabhi.  She belonged to the Vedic sage, Vasishtha.  

Kamadhenu is the sacred cow as she relates to Hindu ritual.  Her 5 gifts are sacred offerings.  They are:  milk, curds (yoghurt,)  butter, urine (considered a pure substance that can serve as medicine,) and manure (which is used for plastering walls and floors, and which, dried, is used as fuel.)   She also gives us a further gift, her offspring -- a calf, the source of further cattle.

The Mahabharata (ch. 76, 77, 83) on the sacredness of cows.
In the Himalayan tradition, butter is sculpted to make offerings such as tormas, and it also provides the oil that fuels butterlamps.  

Ghee, clarified butter, is the very essence of cow.  As such, it is the substance that, in India, is used to bath sacred images.

-------

Indo-europeans carried the notion of a cosmic cow with them to northern Europe, for in the mythology of the Eddas, Audhumla ("Without Impurity") was the creator of humankind.  From a stone, she licked Man into being over a period of three days.  She was created from ice-melt at the beginning of time, and preserves herself while sustaining the status quo by licking the salt and hoar frost which would otherwise build up on Niflheim, abode of the gods.  The titans or Ymir feed on her milk.
http://www.khandro.n...al_cow_bull.htm

--------

Hathor again:
Goddess Hathor in a red dress wears the headress of a sun disk and cow's horn.
RED dress, cow's horns, sun disk.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hathor


So, in the end is just our views on what it is - you see it as a recent proverb inserted only but I see it as a proverb used, but it pertains to a true event from the past - when the origin of the proverb was taking place.

Edited by The Puzzler, 30 December 2011 - 04:42 AM.

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
Flagpole Sitta - Harvey Danger

#9130    granpa

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 05:47 AM

surely the horns represent the crescent moon.

http://religion.wiki.../wiki/Auðumbla

http://religion.wiki...iki/Gavaevodata

the primordial ox is a hermaphrodite, having both milk (Ibd 43.15) and semen (Ibd 94.4).

I have cooked you a meal, cut it into little pieces, and set it before you  but I'm not going to chew it for you
And no one is forcing you to eat it. If you dont want it then dont eat it.

I am not a big believer in science by combat.
Arguing doesn't establish who is right. Arguing only establishes who is the better arguer.

#9131    Alewyn

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 06:56 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 29 December 2011 - 09:39 PM, said:

And now I will repeat an idea I had months ago:

We all, Puzz, Alewyn, Otharus, Knul, me, and anyone else able to read the OLB (the original text, not the translation made by Sandbach or a Tony Steele) should get together and publish a new and improved transliteration, and translation into English of the OLB.

A good idea. If you and/or Otharus could send me your private e-mail addresses by PM, I could forward you my attempt at revising the previous translations. The file is some 560kB and 67 A4 pages. I cannot post it here and I doubt it whether I could post it on your PM's. Perhaps we could try that.

This could then serve as a starting point and you and Otharus can chop and change as you see fit.


#9132    Knul

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 07:14 AM

If you want to know more of the proverb 'promise cows with golden horns' you should trace back the story of Pygmalion.

Ovidius

[Metamorphoses X, 243-267] Pygmalion


(270-279) De zeer drukbezochtefeestdagen van Venus braken aan op Cyprus. Jonge koeien met vergulde gekromde horens werden samen gedood door op hun sneeuwwitte nek te slaan, en de wierook rookte. Nadat Pygmalion zijn ambt vervuld had, ging hij bij het altaar staan en schuchter zei hij: "Goden, als jullie alles kunnen geven, wens ik dat er een vrouw is," (hij durfde niet 'een ivoren maagd' zeggen) "die gelijkt op mijn ivoren beeld." Omdat de gouden Venus zelf aanwezig was op haar feest, merkte ze waar die wensen om vroegen, en als voorteken van een bevriende godheid werd de vlam driemaal opnieuw aangestoken en ze leidde hem door de lucht.



Edited by Knul, 30 December 2011 - 07:20 AM.


#9133    Abramelin

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 10:19 AM

View PostAlewyn, on 30 December 2011 - 06:56 AM, said:

A good idea. If you and/or Otharus could send me your private e-mail addresses by PM, I could forward you my attempt at revising the previous translations. The file is some 560kB and 67 A4 pages. I cannot post it here and I doubt it whether I could post it on your PM's. Perhaps we could try that.

This could then serve as a starting point and you and Otharus can chop and change as you see fit.

OK Alewyn I will.

A bit late to say this, but I just found out Overwijn really transliterated every underscore and point in the text too.

An example:

(53) jefta kâter.inne alsa hête thju fâm thêr burch.fâm to goda burch was. kât was
stolte änd hâchfârande thêrvmbe ne lêt hju nên rêd ni follistar anda moder ne frêja.
men thâ tha burch.hêra thät fâta. thâ svndon hja selva bodon nêi tex.lând nêi thêre
moder thâ. minna alsa was thêre moder.is nôme. lêt âla tha stjûrar mânja änd âl et
ôthera jongk.folk fon âst. fly.land änd fon tha Dênne.markum. ut thesse tochte is
thju skydnese fon wodin bern sa.r vppa burgum writen is änd hir êskrêven . . . anda
alder.gâmude thêr reste en alde sêkäning. sterik was sin nôme änd tha hrop vr sina
dêda was grât. thisse alde rob hêde thrê nêva. wodin thene aldeste hêmde to
lumka.mâkja by thêre e.mude to âst fly.land by sin eldrum t.ûs. ênes was er hêrman
wêst
.

But what he also did (I removed it from the quote) is give a name like "âst. flyy.land" an extra -y- to stress the way it should be pronounced according to him:  -yy- is pronounced as (English) -ee- (in Dutch it would be -ie- ).

++++++

EDIT:

Alewyn, did you start with transliterating the original script, and after that make a translation?

.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 December 2011 - 10:34 AM.


#9134    Abramelin

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 10:25 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 December 2011 - 12:58 AM, said:

I told you why, there is no afterlife. What was promised from the cows with golden horns, didn't materialise. It was an empty promise.

Proverbs usually have a reason for becoming a proverb to start with.

Even if it means empty promise by the time the OLB is written and used in the book in that manner, it doesn't mean that the Solar Cow wasn't bought into Nth. Europe by Easterners c. 2000BC. That would be the original meaning of the proverb imo.

But there is no hint at an 'afterlife' or a 'hereafter' in the text at all. You only bring it in, and that will add to the already existing confusion:

The principal men and their cleverest sons made up to the wanton daughters of the Finns; and their own daughters, led astray by this bad example, allowed themselves to be beguiled by the handsome young Finns in derision of their depraved fathers. When the Magy found this out, he took the handsomest of his Finns and Magyars, and promised them cows with golden horns to let themselves be taken prisoners by our people in order to spread his doctrines.

1) iemand koeien met gouden horens beloven (=iets moois beloven maar niet nakomen)
2) koeien met gouden horens beloven (=het onmogelijke beloven
)

http://www.woorden.o... horens beloven

Translation:
1) to promise someone cows with golden horns (= promise something beautifull but not live up to it)
2) to promise cows woth golden horns (= to promise the impossible)


-

koeien met gouden horens beloven (v.)
gouden bergen beloven, valse hoop wekken


http://dictionary.se... beloven/nl-nl/

Translation:
to promise mountains of gold, to rouse false hope

.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 December 2011 - 10:36 AM.


#9135    Abramelin

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Posted 30 December 2011 - 10:49 AM

View Postgranpa, on 30 December 2011 - 05:47 AM, said:

surely the horns represent the crescent moon.

http://religion.wiki.../wiki/Auðumbla

http://religion.wiki...iki/Gavaevodata

the primordial ox is a hermaphrodite, having both milk (Ibd 43.15) and semen (Ibd 94.4).

There you go: is it a Lunar Bull/Cow or  Solar Bull/Cow?

And does it clear up anything from the OLB text? No.



The worship of the Sacred Bull throughout the ancient world is most familiar to the Western world in the biblical episode of the idol of the Golden Calf. The Golden Calf after being made by the Hebrew people in the wilderness of Sinai, were rejected and destroyed by Moses and his tribe after his time upon the mountain peak (Book of Exodus). Marduk is the "bull of Utu". Shiva's steed is Nandi, the Bull. The sacred bull survives in the constellation Taurus. The bull, whether lunar as in Mesopotamia and Egypt or solar as in India, is the subject of various other cultural and religious incarnations, as well as modern mentions in new age cultures.

http://en.wikipedia....ull_(mythology)

.

Edited by Abramelin, 30 December 2011 - 10:51 AM.