11638 replies to this topic

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 02 January 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

Puzz, I want you to read this and remember till this thread finally dies:

I do not think your contributions are a waste of time, NO, they make me think of possibilities.

I know some others here do have severe problems with your posts because you 'shoot with hail' and rarely on target.

You tackle 5 topics in one post, you post real TOMES, and you expect people to read all of that.

No Puzz, people skip, they just pick up from your posts what they happen to be interested in at the moment.

+++

EDIT:

You need to learn to focus.

I hope I do not sound like 'talking down on you', because I am not. Your posts have sent me on many searches. Maybe I should have stressed that more often.

But do not put alll your 'marbles' in one post.

Get that, goddamnit??

.

Yeah, I'll take it on board.  

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 02 January 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

I know what you showed, but we are looking for something unique, not what happens like 2 times a year. That is also why I posted about the astrological start of the Kali Yuga.

And then, this 'great conjunction' should be in a socalled water sign (Cancer/Scorpio/Pisces)

A conjunction of Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn.


And most importantly... all that based on my theory that the date of 2194 BC could very well be based on astrology, and based on how someone centuries ago (or just 150 years ago) would interpret such a 'great conjunction'. Or at least a conjunction between Jupiter and Saturn in a water sign. Then add to that the theory (Halley, Whiston, others) that that conjuction could have occurred during one of the visits of Halley's Comet, and we can narrow things down quite a bit.

.

You don't need the comet...

Let us go on to explain the nature of comets and the 'milky way', after a preliminary discussion of the views of others.

Anaxagoras and Democritus declare that comets are a conjunction of the planets approaching one another and so appearing to touch one another.

Some of the Italians called Pythagoreans say that the comet is one of the planets, but that it appears at great intervals of time and only rises a little above the horizon. This is the case with Mercury too; because it only rises a little above the horizon it often fails to be seen and consequently appears at great intervals of time.
http://classics.mit....rology.1.i.html

I think it's hard in today's sanitized scientific world where we know the exact of everything, to understand these concepts as they were interpreted in ancient times.

A conjunction of planets was declared a comet. Also said was a comet was one of the planets - maybe even Mercury as it was in accordance with what they saw.

As I said, we should be able to find this astronomical alignment of some kind right after the whole Summer had passed, ie; Autumn 2194BC.

Maybe a water sign but I think an Earth sign would make more sense - it wasn't just Flood that affected the world apparently.

Virgo The Virgin Earth Mutable Negative Mercury August 23 - September 22

Mercury is in Virgo at the Autumn Equinox 2194BC. It's an Earth sign. The end date falls at the Equinox. The Virgin Earth Mother, ruled by Mercury/Hermes.

All occurring in the Age of Taurus, the Bull. Another Earth sign.

Edited by The Puzzler, 03 January 2012 - 06:11 AM.

[Otharus]

Van Gorp, on 03 January 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:

These quotes were indeed coming from Adriaan Schrieck's work.

In fact the introduction of

"Van t'beghin der eerster volcken van Europen. In sonderheyt vanden oorspronck ende saecken der Neder-Landren.
Met betoon vande dwalinghen der Griecken ende Latinen op t'selve Beghin ende den ghemeynen Oorspronck."

The PDF can be downloaded here:
http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Two quick (OLB-related) finds from the intro:





Schrieck's etymology of "Atlantis" (achter-land = behind-land) is different of that of OLB.

I leave conclusions for later.

[Otharus]

More Atlantis in Schrieck (1614) p.75/912:



My first impression is that many of Schrieck's etymologies make less sense than the ones given and suggested in OLB.

But that does by no means mean that all of it is nonsense.

It is interesting that both Scandinavia (Sweden) and the Low counties seem to have had a tradition of proving that their language was the one of before the Babylonian confusion of speech.

More later.

[Otharus]

Schrieck about the "Vriesen" (liber VIII, p.254-255):

Edited by Otharus, 03 January 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 03 January 2012 - 06:06 AM, said:

You don't need the comet...

Let us go on to explain the nature of comets and the 'milky way', after a preliminary discussion of the views of others.

Anaxagoras and Democritus declare that comets are a conjunction of the planets approaching one another and so appearing to touch one another.

Some of the Italians called Pythagoreans say that the comet is one of the planets, but that it appears at great intervals of time and only rises a little above the horizon. This is the case with Mercury too; because it only rises a little above the horizon it often fails to be seen and consequently appears at great intervals of time.
http://classics.mit....rology.1.i.html

I think it's hard in today's sanitized scientific world where we know the exact of everything, to understand these concepts as they were interpreted in ancient times.

A conjunction of planets was declared a comet. Also said was a comet was one of the planets - maybe even Mercury as it was in accordance with what they saw.

As I said, we should be able to find this astronomical alignment of some kind right after the whole Summer had passed, ie; Autumn 2194BC.

Maybe a water sign but I think an Earth sign would make more sense - it wasn't just Flood that affected the world apparently.

Virgo The Virgin Earth Mutable Negative Mercury August 23 - September 22

Mercury is in Virgo at the Autumn Equinox 2194BC. It's an Earth sign. The end date falls at the Equinox. The Virgin Earth Mother, ruled by Mercury/Hermes.

All occurring in the Age of Taurus, the Bull. Another Earth sign.

It all depends on who wrote the OLB and when.

Someone from the 19th century had quite different ideas about astrology and comets than someone from say 2000 years ago.

If you read what a Halley assumed would happen if a comet (the one that bears his name) could cause or could have caused. then you'll see it is almost the disaster story of the OLB, and he didn't even practise astrology. Now combine that with what astrologers already believed in comets could cause, and you have the original story of the OLB disaster event. It's not just a flood, it's also earthquakes and erupting volcanoes and so on.

Btw, then still the sign of Pisces would be the best candidate according to many astrologers, even though it's 'just' a water sign.


-

You talk about atumnn, but the OLB mentions things already happening during the summer:

During the whole summer the sun had been hid behind the clouds, as if unwilling to look upon the earth. There was perpetual calm, and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and the marshes. The air was heavy and oppressive, and in men’s hearts was neither joy nor cheerfulness. In the midst of this stillness the earth began to tremble as if she was dying. The mountains opened to vomit forth fire and flames. Some sank into the bosom of the earth, and ....

+++++++++++++++

EDIT:

There's another thing to consider:

Uranus and Neptune were discovered in the 17th century, Pluto in the 20th.

Someone believing in astrology would have tried to calculate a 'disaster date' based on the 'lights' he or she knew, and before the 17th century that would have meant only Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn.

Someone from the mid-19th century would most probably also take the positions of Neptune and Uranus into consideration (and Halley's comet).

.

Edited by Abramelin, 03 January 2012 - 02:12 PM.

[The Puzzler]

I'll add more tomorrow but check the night sky when it is your way, Tuesday night, a beautiful Jupiter and Moon conjunction, it's above me now, with Orion, magical.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 03 January 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

I'll add more tomorrow but check the night sky when it is your way, Tuesday night, a beautiful Jupiter and Moon conjunction, it's above me now, with Orion, magical.

Thanks.... but it's raining cats and dogs here. These are the Netherlands, you know, lol.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 03 January 2012 - 01:52 PM, said:

It all depends on who wrote the OLB and when.

Someone from the 19th century had quite different ideas about astrology and comets than someone from say 2000 years ago.

If you read what a Halley assumed would happen if a comet (the one that bears his name) could cause or could have caused. then you'll see it is almost the disaster story of the OLB, and he didn't even practise astrology. Now combine that with what astrologers already believed in comets could cause, and you have the original story of the OLB disaster event. It's not just a flood, it's also earthquakes and erupting volcanoes and so on.

Btw, then still the sign of Pisces would be the best candidate according to many astrologers, even though it's 'just' a water sign.


-

You talk about atumnn, but the OLB mentions things already happening during the summer:

During the whole summer the sun had been hid behind the clouds, as if unwilling to look upon the earth. There was perpetual calm, and the damp mist hung like a wet sail over the houses and the marshes. The air was heavy and oppressive, and in men’s hearts was neither joy nor cheerfulness. In the midst of this stillness the earth began to tremble as if she was dying. The mountains opened to vomit forth fire and flames. Some sank into the bosom of the earth, and ....

+++++++++++++++

EDIT:

There's another thing to consider:

Uranus and Neptune were discovered in the 17th century, Pluto in the 20th.

Someone believing in astrology would have tried to calculate a 'disaster date' based on the 'lights' he or she knew, and before the 17th century that would have meant only Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter, and Saturn.

Someone from the mid-19th century would most probably also take the positions of Neptune and Uranus into consideration (and Halley's comet).

.

Found some time. It says 'During the WHOLE Summer...' - meaning imo the whole summer had passed, which would take you to Autumn. The calm appears to have still been there after the whole Summer had passed.

Yes, but in the days of the OLB it could have been thought that a comet did appear - as a conjunction took place ie; a conjunction took place - was thought to be a comet, possibly one with Mercury in it - so the effects that then appear globally were put down to a comet in later times but no comet would have been needed. Although I do understand what you mean. I think if the OLB writers had been referring to this idea they would have mentioned a comet. Even though the effects are what is described by Halley etc. the event itself would not have had to have been a comet. It appears it built up for some time and the odd weather conditions at least 3 months prior to it were some kind of warning, which is another reason it doesn't sound like a comet to me.

Read again what Plato says here:

I mean to say, he replied, that in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals;
http://classics.mit....to/timaeus.html

What sounds like a story of a cometary impact is really a Declination of the bodies moving in the Heavens - and a great conflagration of things apon the Earth WHICH RECURS AFTER LONG INTERVALS.

This occurance, the declination in the Heavens, is known and is a cycle and RECURS after long intervals.

What exactly is a declination?

What Is Declination?

Planets travel in a 360 degree circle around the Sun, but they do not constantly stay at the same latitude. In fact, they are always moving up or down. These "ups and downs" are measured as the distance between a planet's current position and the earth's equator (as projected into the sky). This measurement is known as declination.
http://cafeastrology...clinations.html

As the planet moves around the Sun it's latitude changes in relation to the Earth, they move up and down - the measurement is taken on the Equator.

Therefore it seems to describe a movement of a particular planet - that declined down, after being noticeably higher in latitude.

This small change became a catastrophic cometary impact myth, the planet or star that was Phaethon most likely moved down so far in latitude it appeared to touch the Earth, fall into a far off river, it wasn't seen in the sky anymore. When this occurred, after long periods of time, conflagrations happened at this time.

This seems to be what might be being described by Plato.

It kinda reminded me of what they thought of comets though, portents of doom, bringing conflagrations.

Edited by The Puzzler, 03 January 2012 - 04:20 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Otharus, on 03 January 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

The PDF can be downloaded here:
http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

Two quick (OLB-related) finds from the intro:





Schrieck's etymology of "Atlantis" (achter-land = behind-land) is different of that of OLB.

I leave conclusions for later.

Interesting posts Otharus, not that I can read much of the next 2, never mind, see crops.  

[The Puzzler]

Check this out, maybe Alewyn had the right day, wrong year...
21st October 2194BC - NOT 2193BC. From Uppsala, Sweden.


NOTE: I added this new pic in an edit - I also think there was potential for an eclipse at this time.

I recall this part of a very indepth myth about exactly where Phaethon fell - notice the action in the Cybersky picture right at the claws of Scorpio?

There is a place in which the Scorpio’s claws curve in a double arc, with tail and legs on either side crossing two signs of heaven; sweating black venom, there before his eyes, circling its tail to strike, the creature lies. His senses reel; he drops the reins aghast. And when the reins fall loose upon their backs, the horses swerve away and, unrestrained, gallop through tracts of air unknown and race headlong, out of control, running amok amid the stars fixed in the vault of heaven, hurtling the chariot where no road had run.


I'll leave you with this, a nice nighttime tome for you all...this is the effect the declination in the Heavens (Phaethon's fall) caused. Comet or a recurring climate and Earth change in unison with a declination of a planet or star?

And now they climb to highest heaven, now plunge sheer in breakneck descent down to the earth. Luna [Selene the Moon] with wonder sees her brother’s team running below her own; the scalding clouds steam; the parched fields crack deep, all moisture dried, and every summit flames; the calcined meads lie white; the leaf dies burning with the bough and the dry corn its own destruction feeds. These are but trifles. Mighty cities burn with all their ramparts; realms and nations turn to ashes; mountains with their forests blaze. Athos is burning, Oete is on fire, and Tmolus and proud Taurus Cilix and the crest of Ide, dry whose springs were once so famed, and virgin Helicon and Haemus, still unknown, unhonoured. Aetne burns immense in twofold conflagration; Eryx flames and Othrys and Parnasos’ double peaks; Cynthus and Dindyma and Mycale and Rhodope, losing at last her snows, and Mimas and Cithaeron’s holy hill. Caucasus burns; the frosts of Scythia fail in her need; Pindus and Ossa blaze and, lordlier than both, Olympus flames and the airy Alpes and cloud-capped Appeninus. Then Phaethon saw the world on every side ablaze--heat more that he could bear. He breathed vapours that burned like furnace-blasts, and felt the chariot glow white-hot beneath his feet. Cinders and sparks past bearing shoot and swirl and scorching smoke surrounds him; in the murk, the midnight murk, he knows not where he is or goes; the horses whirl him where they will. The Aethiopes then turned black, so men believe, as heat summoned their blood too near the skin. Then was Libya’s dusty desert [the Sahara] formed, all water scorched away. Then the sad Nymphae bewailed their pools and springs; Boeotia mourned her Dirce lost, Argos Amymone, Ephyre Pirene; nor were Flumina (Rivers) safe though fortune’s favour made them broad and deep and their banks far apart; in middle stream from old Peneus rose the drifting steam, from Erymanthus Phegaicus too and swift Ismenos, and Caicus Teuthranius and the Tanais; Maeander playing on his winding way; tawny Lycormas, Xanthus doomed to burn at Troy a second time; Melas Mygdonius, that sable stream; the pride of Eurotas Taenarius. Eurphrates Babylonius burned, Phasis, Hister [Danube] and Ganges were on fire, Orontes burned and racing Thermodon; Alpheus boiled, fire scorched Spercheus’ banks. The gold that Tagus carried in his sands ran molten in the flames, and all the swans that used to charm the Maeonian banks with song huddled in mid Cayster sweltering. The Nilus in terror to the world’s end fled and his head, still hidden; this seven mouths gaped dusty, seven vales without a stream. The same disaster dried the Ismarian rivers, Hebrus and Strymon, dried the lordly flow of the Hesperian waters, Rhodanus [Rhode] and Rhenus [Rhine] and Padus [Po], and Thybris [Tiber], promised empire of the world. Earth everywhere splits deep and light strikes down into Tartara (the Underworld) and fills with fear Rex Infernus (Hell’s monarch) [Haides] and his consort [Persephone]; the wide seas shrink and where ocean lay a wilderness of dry sand spread; new peaks and ranges rise, long covered by the deep, and multiply the scattered islands of the Cyclades. The fishes dive, the dolphins dare no leap their curving course through the familiar air, and lifeless seals float supine on the waves; even Nereus, fathoms down, in his dark caves, with Doris and her daughters, felt the fire. Thrice from the waters Neptunus [Poseidon] raised his arm and frowning face; thrice fled the fiery air.
But Mother Tellus (Earth) [Gaia], encompassed by the seas, between the ocean and her shrinking streams, that cowered for refuge in her lightless womb, lifted her smothered head and raised her hand to shield her tortured face; then with a quake, a mighty tremor that convulsed the world, sinking in shallow subsidence below her wonted place, in solemn tones appealed : `If this thy pleasure and my due, why now, Summus Deum (Supreme God) [Zeus], lie thy dread lightnings still? If fire destroy me, let the fire be thine: my doom were lighter dealt by thy design! Scarce can my throat find voice to speak’ the smoke and heat were choking her. `See my singed hair! Ash in my eyes, ash on my lips so deep! Are these the fruits of my fertility? Is this for duty done the due return? That I endure the wounds of pick and plough, year-long unceasing pain, that I supply grass for the flocks and crops, sweet sustenance, for humankind and incense for you gods? But, grant my doom deserved, what have the seas deserved and shat they brother? Why shrinks that main, his charge, and form the sky so far recoils? And if no grace can save they brother now, nor me, pity thine own fair sky! Look round! See, each pole smokes; if there the fire should gain, your royal roofs will fall. Even Atlas fails, his shoulders scarce sustain the flaming sky. If land and sea, if heaven’s high palaces perish, prime chaos will us all confound! Save from the flames whatever’s still alive, and prove you mean Creation to survive!’
http://www.theoi.com...n/Phaethon.html

Edited by The Puzzler, 03 January 2012 - 05:07 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 03 January 2012 - 04:18 PM, said:

Found some time. It says 'During the WHOLE Summer...' - meaning imo the whole summer had passed, which would take you to Autumn. The calm appears to have still been there after the whole Summer had passed.

Yes, but in the days of the OLB it could have been thought that a comet did appear - as a conjunction took place ie; a conjunction took place - was thought to be a comet, possibly one with Mercury in it - so the effects that then appear globally were put down to a comet in later times but no comet would have been needed. Although I do understand what you mean. I think if the OLB writers had been referring to this idea they would have mentioned a comet. Even though the effects are what is described by Halley etc. the event itself would not have had to have been a comet. It appears it built up for some time and the odd weather conditions at least 3 months prior to it were some kind of warning, which is another reason it doesn't sound like a comet to me.

Read again what Plato says here:

I mean to say, he replied, that in mind you are all young; there is no old opinion handed down among you by ancient tradition, nor any science which is hoary with age. And I will tell you why. There have been, and will be again, many destructions of mankind arising out of many causes; the greatest have been brought about by the agencies of fire and water, and other lesser ones by innumerable other causes. There is a story, which even you have preserved, that once upon a time Paethon, the son of Helios, having yoked the steeds in his father's chariot, because he was not able to drive them in the path of his father, burnt up all that was upon the earth, and was himself destroyed by a thunderbolt. Now this has the form of a myth, but really signifies a declination of the bodies moving in the heavens around the earth, and a great conflagration of things upon the earth, which recurs after long intervals;
http://classics.mit....to/timaeus.html

What sounds like a story of a cometary impact is really a Declination of the bodies moving in the Heavens - and a great conflagration of things apon the Earth WHICH RECURS AFTER LONG INTERVALS.

This occurance, the declination in the Heavens, is known and is a cycle and RECURS after long intervals.

What exactly is a declination?

What Is Declination?

Planets travel in a 360 degree circle around the Sun, but they do not constantly stay at the same latitude. In fact, they are always moving up or down. These "ups and downs" are measured as the distance between a planet's current position and the earth's equator (as projected into the sky). This measurement is known as declination.
http://cafeastrology...clinations.html

As the planet moves around the Sun it's latitude changes in relation to the Earth, they move up and down - the measurement is taken on the Equator.

Therefore it seems to describe a movement of a particular planet - that declined down, after being noticeably higher in latitude.

This small change became a catastrophic cometary impact myth, the planet or star that was Phaethon most likely moved down so far in latitude it appeared to touch the Earth, fall into a far off river, it wasn't seen in the sky anymore. When this occurred, after long periods of time, conflagrations happened at this time.

This seems to be what might be being described by Plato.

It kinda reminded me of what they thought of comets though, portents of doom, bringing conflagrations.

Plato tried to explain that an ancient myth was actually an ancient heavenly phenomenon, but I am quite sure when he said "declination", he didn't mean an astrononical declination (distance from the ecliptic) because that doesn't change in such a dramatic way that people would have made up scary stories about it. The change of declination of fixed stars is even more hardly noticable.

Declination is here nothing but the noune of 'to decline', so it could be translated as 'a going down' or 'a lowering', or even deviate. Meaning: (the) celestial bodies left their normal celestial positions and caused 'conflagrations'. Aristotle believed Phaeton was (a) comet(s) or caused them to fall on earth.


http://en.wikipedia....g/wiki/Phaëton

But I found something else...

[Abramelin]

I was searching for yet another folk almanac ("Volksalmanak") for some explanation about the 2194 BC date.

Again I didn't find it (it's getting kind of frustrating that no one thought it a good thing to write down how they came to that date in their almanacs), but found this instead:

Vaderlandsche Letteroefeningen
Jaargang 1840

Het zevengestarnte, een van de heerlijkste
des zuidelijken hemels, stelde bij de Oosterlingen NOACH's arke voor.

http://www.dbnl.org/...03184001_01.pdf

Translation:
The Pleiades, one of the loveliest (constellations) of the southern skies, stood for Noah's Ark among the easterners.

OK, and from then on:

The Babylonian star catalogues name them MUL.MUL or "star of stars", and they head the list of stars along the ecliptic, reflecting the fact that they were close to the point of vernal equinox around the 23rd century BC. The earliest known depiction of the Pleiades is likely a bronze age artifact known as the Nebra sky disk, dated to approximately 1600 BC.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pleiades


The precise dating of the Nebra skydisk depended upon the dating of a number of Bronze Age weapons, which were offered for sale with the disk and said to be from the same site. These axes and swords can be typologically dated to the mid 2nd millennium BC (Unetice culture). Radiocarbon dating of a birchbark particle found on one of the swords to between 1600 and 1560 BC confirmed this estimate. This corresponds to the date of burial, at which time the disk had likely been in existence for several generations.

http://en.wikipedia..../Nebra_sky_disk

This Nebra skydisk is an interesting artefact and of a nice age...


From:
THE BIBLE AND THE PLEIADES
Gerardus D. Bouw, Ph.D.
http://www.geocentri...ns/pleiades.pdf

From time immemorial the Hebrews and the Christian Church
have linked the constellations to the truths of scriptures. The
Hebrews, for example, maintain that the constellation of Orion the
hunter, which they call Kesil, (meaning fool), was usurped by Nimrod
(Gen. 10:8-9) to immortalize himself in the sky. Indeed, most of the
pagan accounts of the Pleiades even have Biblical overtones. Thus
many ancients associate Taurus, the constellation in which the
Pleiades is found, with the flood of Noah, and they associate the
Pleiades with the ark. Related to that, some regard the Pleiades as
doves. Of course, we know Noah sent a single dove from the ark
(Gen. 8:8), not seven, but the connection is there nevertheless.

==

(..) day, and the Pleiades with the rain or start of the
rainy season, a theme associated with them around the world.

==

We find that tales of a missing Pleiad are world-wide.

==

The pervasiveness of the Pleiades as the spiritual center or seat of
the universe led Wright, in 1750, to propose that the Pleiades are at
the physical center of the universe. In 1846 this led to the suggestion
by Maedler that the whole universe revolved around Alcyone.


Here someone is quoting an interpretation by Velikovsky and I will try to find the original text interpreted by Velikovsky:

The Pleiades are called the Khima (or heap) in the Old Testament. Their connection to the story of Noah and the Biblical Great Flood first appears in the set of Jewish scriptures known as the Babylonian Talmud, or Tracta Berakhot. “When the Holy One decided to bring the Deluge on the Earth, He took two stars from Khima and (hurling them against the Earth) brought the Deluge on the Earth.”

http://consciousevol...leiades0211.htm

A site about Velikovsky (and the quote): http://www.varchive.org/itb/khima.htm

(Did Alewyn mention this in his book? I am not sure, and I can't find it in his book.)


More:

They shared the watery character always ascribed to the Hyades, as is shown in Statius' Pliadum nivosum sidus; and Valerius Flaccus distinctly used the word "Pliada" for the showers, as perhaps did Statius in his Pliada movere; while Josephus states, among his very few stellar allusions, that during the investment of Jerusalem by Antiochus Epiphanes, 170 B.C., the besieged suffered from want of water, but were finally relieved "by a large shower of rain which fell at the setting of the Pleiades." In the same way they are intimately connected with traditions of the Flood found among so many and widely separated nations, and especially in the Deluge-myth of Chaldaea.

http://www.constella...s/pleiades.html


=========

A nice read (well, for those who are called Puzzler and Abramelin, lol):

Mazzaroth; or The Constellations/
Frances Rolleston 1862

http://books.google....ge noah&f=false


http://books.google....AAJ&redir_esc=y

.

Edited by Abramelin, 03 January 2012 - 05:09 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 03 January 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

Plato tried to explain that an ancient myth was actually an ancient heavenly phenomenon, but I am quite sure when he said "declination", he didn't mean an astrononical declination (distance from the ecliptic) because that doesn't change in such a dramatic way that people would have made up scary stories about it. The change of declination of fixed stars is even more hardly noticable.

Declination is here nothing but the noune of 'to decline', so it could be translated as 'a going down' or 'a lowering', or even deviate. Meaning: (the) celestial bodies left their normal celestial positions and caused 'conflagrations'. Aristotle believed Phaeton was (a) comet(s) or caused them to fall on earth.


http://en.wikipedia....g/wiki/Phaëton

But I found something else...

I must do bed but one thing before I go. I could go on for hours more, but won't, I'll keep it for tomorrow...
Those mysterious Pleiades. Keep them for tomorrow too.

No, Aristotle did not think that at all - that Wiki article is worded badly.

It says: In Aristotle's Meteorology, Aristotle says, "...the stars...fell from heaven at the time of Phaethon's downfall."[9] Aristotle is saying Phaethon caused a meteor shower.
http://classics.mit....rology.1.i.html

Let's follow the reference to Aristotle's Meteorology and believe me, I looked hard until I found it - it really says this:

Let us now explain the origin, cause, and nature of the milky way. And here too let us begin by discussing the statements of others on the subject.

(1)Of the so-called Pythagoreans some say that this is the path of one of the stars that fell from heaven at the time of Phaethon's downfall. Others say that the sun used once to move in this circle and that this region was scorched or met with some other affection of this kind, because of the sun and its motion.


So in fact, Aristotle never 'says' the stars fell from Heaven at the time of Phaethons downfall or Phaethon was a comet - he says the Pythagoreans said the milky way was formed "of one of the stars that fell from Heaven at the time of Phaethon's downfall".

Edited by The Puzzler, 03 January 2012 - 05:54 PM.

[Abramelin]

Kimah - Pleiades - Flood


"Quite by "accident", I came across some History on Halloween that was at one time more well known. While doing some research on the Star of David, I ran across some talmudic references to the Pleiades and the Flood of Noah. When I looked further for other sources about this, I found that there is more ancient legend about this connection and the "missing" star of the Pleiades, than all other myths or legends of all the other constellations combined. Evidently, historians would agree that some kind of change occured in the Pleiades at the time of a worldwide catycismal event, for accounts of it are found in every culture, from native American to native Australian. The time of the flood is given in scripture as the 17th of the second month, which, in our calender year falls around the end of Oct/1st of Nov. ....The occurance of somekind of festival of the dead, or recognition of the Pleiades at this time of year, also goes back into ancient history, again, in nearly every culture.... thus the probable original source of Halloween. More reason that this is odd, is the extremely small size and dimness of this little cluster of stars, which is actually part of the constellation of Taurus the Bull, or "reem" as it is called in Hebrew. In several versions of the talmud, the Pleiades is additionally believed to be a possible location of God's sign in the future of the end times judgment.

In the course of this research I found that the geographic position of six of the seven churches of Rev. are nearly identical with the six visible stars of the Pleiades. ...and they are located on the "shoulder" of the Taurus mountains of Turkey in the same position as they appear in the constellation of Taurus. The connection has also been made betweeen the two because of the ref. in Amos 5 of the Pleiades (Kimah) as the seven stars, and the seven stars in Rev. as the messengers of the seven churches.

The Jewish sages, in some accounts believe that the change will be in the form of a Star of David. They are also the only ones who speak of the change associated with the flood as being TWO missing stars rather than one, as all the others. This is also interesting, in that now under a powerful telescope the very faint star named Estrope, which is generally not visible except under perfect conditions, is found to be a double star.



Read the rest of that post here:
http://www.christian...ndpost&p=213321


==============================

Maggid ben Yoseif / Jerusalem Torah Voice in Exile
Ancient Writings of Torah Sages
Predicted Change in Star Cluster Kimah


The Torah sages wrote that Hashem

"took two stars away from KIMAH and brought the flood!"

This is alluded to in at least four places in Talmud Rosh HaShana, 11b and Talmud Baba M'tzia, 106b.  It is also found in two other rabbinic writings: Ta'anith I bottom of 64a; and B'midbar Rabbah 10.  The word KIMAH itself is found in more than a dozen places in the Jerusalem Talmud, 10 places in the Babylonian Talmud, 16 places in Rashi’s commentary to the Babylonian Talmud and 16 places in the Tosefta to the Babylonian Talmud.  Every Orthodox rabbi and most non-Orthodox rabbis should be well familiar with this star-cluster and its relationship to the flood of Noah.

Here are a few of the most specific references:


And read the rest of that webpage here:

http://www.torah-voi...starcluster.htm

.

Edited by Abramelin, 03 January 2012 - 07:50 PM.