11638 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

One thing we can now be pretty sure of is that "makia" in "Lumka-makia" could very well have meant 'sword':

The sword in Anglo-Saxon England: its archaeology and literature - Hilda Roderick Ellis Davidson

http://books.google.... -mafia&f=false


==

But then we still have the "Lumka" part of the name.

The Lexicon Frisicum not of much help, it only says that it is derived from "Lumme" :

"Friesch woordenboek (Lexicon frisicum)" http://www.archive.o...rngoog_djvu.txt

M. Lumke, Lumcken. Verkl. van Lumme.
Zie Lumme.
V. Lumkje.

M. Lumme, Lumma, Lum. Verg. Lume,
Ljumme, Lommc.

V. Lumke, Lumcke, Lumme, Lump-
Jen. In den Zoh. ook Lummigje, Lum-
migjen, Lummige, volgens den Friso-
sassischen vorm Lummechien, Lummegien,
in Drente inheemsch.

=

Here somone says it means "bodice":

lumke, belichje (betekent lijfje in het fries), / bodice

http://forum.scholie...p/t-431064.html

Hmmm...

=

Here it is said to have been derived from "Ludmilla":

Lumke. LEUDI: Leudomalla. S. Ludmilla † 927, Wed. Ma. in Boheme. B. 16 Sept. V, 339

From:

Nederlandsche doopnamen naar oorsprong en gebruik
Door J. J. Graaf
Oud-deken en -pastoor van Ouderkerk a/d Amstel
Bussum—Paul Brand 1915

http://www.gutenberg...9-h/25089-h.htm
Or here (loads faster): http://www.gutenberg...089/25089-8.txt

Well, that possibility looks promising:

Czech:
Ludmila R. (lumka) ID 54605
http://www.mimibazar....php?user=54605


lumka
ludmila batova
http://pnp.post.sk/lumka

So what does Ludmilla mean:

Ludmilla is een Engelse meisjesnaam (= English girl's name).

De betekenis van de naam is `verdienstelijkheid, stijl`./ >> merit, style

http://babybytes.nl/...eisjes/Ludmilla
http://www.allebabyn...amen/l/ludmilla


=

Does it mean that? Not according to this site:

Ludmilla, Lida, Ludmila, Mila, Milina, Loudomille - Bemind door het volk (Slavische lind: volk en mila: bemind)
Lida - Van edele afkomst of geliefd door het volk >> From noble ancestry or loved by the people (Slavic: lind=people, mila= loved)

( from the same site: Freya - Heerseres (Grieks)/ female ruler - Greek !!! )

http://mens-en-samen...es-met-k-l.html

==

So... what could "Lumka-makia" mean?

-1- Shining sword
-2- Sword of merit, stylish sword
-3- Sword of noble descent; better: royal sword
-4- Sword loved by the people ??
-5- Bodice sword ????

(Btw: the oldest bodices were made with baleens... remember the whales? Lumk-makia = Lemmer? Lemmer = whalebutcher? Kamakia=harpoon? Jeesh... Lumka-makia: bodice-maker?? LOL)


.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 January 2012 - 02:57 PM.

[Abramelin]

And we have a sixth possibility:

-6- lukewarm sword

[Abramelin]

The word "makia" meaning "sword" was found in an inscription in Vimose, Denmark, n/w of Odense.

Interesting place.....



Finds from Vimose, Funen, Denmark, include some of the very oldest datable Elder Futhark runic inscriptions in late Proto-Germanic or early Proto-Norse from the 2nd to 3rd centuries AD.


Vimose Comb (ca. 160, considered the oldest datable runic inscription altogether): harja
Vimose Buckle (ca. 200) aadagasu =? ansuz-a(n)dag-a(n)su / laasauwija =? la-asau-wija;
Vimose Chape (ca. 250): mariha || ala / makija; possibly "Mari (the famous one) is the sword of Alla"
Vimose Woodplane (ca. 300) talijo gisai oj: wiliR la o / tkbis: hleuno: an: regu
Vimose Sheathplate (c. 300): awgns; possibly "son/descendant of Awa"
Vimose Spearhead: agnio

http://www.enotes.co...se_inscriptions

=

Pics of a reconstructed sword of Vimose:

http://www.roemische...ert_Vimose.html

=

Vimose - or Allese Bog – is northwest of Odense on the island of Funen. Many weapons and other items of military equipment were discovered in the bog by peat diggers in the 19th century. The find was unearthed in the mid-19th century and contains close to 6,000 objects. Most are items of military equipment sacrificed during seven different ceremonies in the period from the year 0 until 600. However, other periods ranging from the Stone Age until the Middle Ages are also represented. About 10 percent of the weapons were produced in the Roman Empire and imported to Scandinavia. The rest were made by local weaponsmiths. The find is exhibited at the National Museum of Denmark and museums in the city of Odense.

http://www.kulturarv...B/vimose/images

=

In Vimose at Fyn they have found a long ring-mail and a yard-long sword. That may be of Parthian origin, since we see pictures of riders with that protection and a toped headgear. They also gave their horse a cover as protection so the equipage was like a tank on four legs. Their speciality was the bow with double bows. They were very skilled and could shoot in all directions. Their tactic was to be a swarm of bees and they also pretended fleeing and came back again … not forgetting the Sarmatian swords came to Southern Scandinavia already in first millennium BC … or did the North export to the South?

http://freepages.his...ils4/0horse.htm

==

Swords galore:

http://www.vaidilute...aillu-1-09.html

==

When were those objects found near Vimose? Between 1845 and 1853 and by Conrad Engelhardt.

The birth of prehistoric chronology: dating methods and dating systems in nineteenth-century Scandinavian archeology - Bo Gräslund

http://books.google....century&f=false


Just in case someone thought these finds could not have been known by someone in the middle of the nineteenth century.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 January 2012 - 03:58 PM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 18 January 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

And we have a sixth possibility:

-6- lukewarm sword

I think the 1st possibility is lumka-makia = to warm/hot/burn make. Since makia is in the Frisian Dictionary as make and lumka is an obvious Nordic word for 'to warm'.

Also, sword is in the OLB as swêrd, so I hardly think 'makia' is meant to be makija/sword in the OLB.

mak-ia 70 und häufiger?, mek-k-ia, mait-ia, meit-ia, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd.
machen, reparieren, bauen, festsetzen, gerichtlich entscheiden, freisprechen,
verurteilen, beschuldigen, verklagen, erklären, erweisen, unter etwas bringen,
pfänden; ne. make (V.), repair (V.), build (V.), decide, accuse (V.), declare;

- also decide, accuse and declare in a form as well.

Looking closely at makia above, I see - maaikjen, V., machen; L.: Hh 68b, Rh 914b - I could almost see this in the word 'machete'/large sword.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/machete - it doesn't say that, still...maaikjen/machen/makija seem very similar.

I do not however think the word makia in the OLB is sword for the reasons I gave.

[The Puzzler]

In regard to wopa too, it's in the Frisian Dictionary as hropa.

hropa:
hræ-p-a 20, afries., st. V. (7)=red. V.: nhd. rufen; Vw.: s. bi-*, *tæ-, ðt-, wi-ther-;
Hw.: vgl. ae. hræpan, anfrk. ruopan, as. hræpan, ahd. ruofan*; Q.: E, H, R, B, Jur;
E.: germ. *hræpan, st. V., rufen, schreien; s. idg. *ker- (1), *kor-, *kr-, V.,
krächzen, krähen, Pokorny 567; W.: nfries. roppen, roffen, V., rufen; W.: saterl.
ropa, V., rufen; L.: Hh 47b, Rh 829a

hropere:
hræ-p-ere 1, afries., st. M. (ja): nhd. Rufer; ne. caller; Vw.: s. tæ-*; Hw.: vgl. ahd.
ruofõri*; E.: s. hræ-p-a; L.: Hh 47b, Rh 829a

hropinge:
hræ-p-inge 2, ræ-p-inge, afries., st. F. (æ): nhd. Rufen, Vorladung, Berufung,
Appellation; ne. summons (Pl.), appellation; Vw.: s. bi-*, wi-ther-; Hw.: vgl. ahd

wopa - same word as hropa which could be red, caller or summons (call to arms).

I'll give my translation of this whole OLB 'wopa' part tomorrow, I'm not quite done, but done for tonight.  

Edited by The Puzzler, 18 January 2012 - 04:59 PM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 18 January 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

I think the 1st possibility is lumka-makia = to warm/hot/burn make. Since makia is in the Frisian Dictionary as make and lumka is an obvious Nordic word for 'to warm'.

Also, sword is in the OLB as swêrd, so I hardly think 'makia' is meant to be makija/sword in the OLB.

mak-ia 70 und häufiger?, mek-k-ia, mait-ia, meit-ia, afries., sw. V. (2): nhd.
machen, reparieren, bauen, festsetzen, gerichtlich entscheiden, freisprechen,
verurteilen, beschuldigen, verklagen, erklären, erweisen, unter etwas bringen,
pfänden; ne. make (V.), repair (V.), build (V.), decide, accuse (V.), declare;

- also decide, accuse and declare in a form as well.

Looking closely at makia above, I see - maaikjen, V., machen; L.: Hh 68b, Rh 914b - I could almost see this in the word 'machete'/large sword.

http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/machete - it doesn't say that, still...maaikjen/machen/makija seem very similar.

I do not however think the word makia in the OLB is sword for the reasons I gave.

I hope you reread what I underlined...

I'll give you a hint: Is there a "Lumka" in the OLB that means "warm"? No, it's old Norse.

So, lol, I cannot use an old Norse word for sword, but you can use an old Norse word for warm.

==

OK, the rest of 'makia' has been posted already when we discussed that word before.

'Machete' has a different etymology, but...

Os. swerd; ohd. swert (nhd. Schwert); ofri. swerd (nfri. swurd); oe. sweord (ne. sword); on. sverð (nzw. svärd); alle ‘zwaard’, < pgm. *swerda-.

Er bestonden in het Germaans meerdere woorden voor (verschillende typen?) zwaard: pgm. *sahs (zie → mes), pgm. *heru- zoals in os. ohd. heru, oe. heoru, on. hjörr, got. hairus en pgm. *mēkija- zoals in Oernoords mākija [2e eeuw; inscriptie van Vimose] en got. mekeis ‘zwaard’, on. mækir, oe. mǣce, os. māki en het Germaanse leenwoord in het Fins miekka ‘zwaard’.
Lit.: W. Krogmann (1931), in: Zeitschrift für Vergleichende Sprachforschung 59, 204

("Oernoords" = ancient, or very old Norse, and from the 2nd century)

http://www.etymologi...efwoord/zwaard1


This Dutch site not only gives several forms for sword from several Nordic languages, but also tells us there were other words for different types of swords.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 January 2012 - 05:21 PM.

[lilthor]

Lumka

Leuko meaning white (Greek)

Illuminate meaning to make bright

Could it mean "white sword" or "bright sword"?


No, I am not suggesting "light saber"...

[Abramelin]

"Lumka" : pick out the one you like:

Lumanā > Lummen (1200 Lumna): leu-m- ‘modder’.>> MUD

het substraatwoord (subtrate word) lum- ‘modder’/mud

http://www.dbnl.org/...l01_01_0002.php


leem (grondsoort) / (type of soil) clay, loam, mud
http://www.etymologi...trefwoord/leem1


loam
O.E. lam "clay, mud, mire, earth," from P.Gmc. *laimaz (cf. O.S. lemo, Du. leem, Ger. Lehm), from PIE root *lai-/*li- "to be sticky" (see lime (1)). As a type of highly fertile clayey soil, it is attested from 1664.

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

lime (1)
"chalky mineral used in making mortar," from O.E. lim "sticky substance, birdlime, mortar," from P.Gmc. *leimaz (cf. O.N. lim, Du. lijm, Ger. Leim), from PIE base *(s)lei- "slime, slimy, sticky" (cf. L. limus "slime, mud, mire," linere "to smear;" O.E. slim "slime;" Skt. linati "adheres to, slips into, disappears;" Gk. alinein "to anoint, besmear;" O.Ir. leinam "I follow," lit. "I stick to"). Lime is made by putting limestone or shells in a red heat, which burns off the carbonic acid and leaves a brittle white solid which dissolves easily in water.

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

lame (adj.)
O.E. lama "crippled, lame; paralytic, weak," from P.Gmc. *lamon (cf. O.N. lami, Du., O.Fris. lam, Ger. lahm "lame"), "weak-limbed," lit. "broken," from PIE base *lem- "to break; broken," with derivatives meaning "crippled" (cf. O.C.S. lomiti "to break," Lith. luomas "lame"). In M.E., "crippled in the feet," but also "crippled in the hands; disabled by disease; maimed." Sense of "socially awkward" is attested from 1942. Noun meaning "crippled persons collectively" is in late Old English.

lumber (v.)
"to move clumsily," c.1300, lomere, probably from a Scandinavian source (cf. dial. Swed. loma "move slowly," O.N. lami "lame"), ultimately cognate with lame (adj.).

http://www.etymonlin...searchmode=none

loom (n.)
O.E. geloma "utensil, tool," from ge- perfective prefix + -loma, of unknown origin. Originally "implement or tool of any kind" (cf. heirloom); thus, "the penis" (c.1400-1600). Meaning "a machine in thich yarn or thread is woven into fabric" is from 1404.

loom (v.)
1540s, perhaps from a Scandinavian source (cf. dial. Swed. loma, E.Fris. lomen "move slowly"), perhaps a variant from the root of lame (adj.); first used of ships

http://www.etymonlin...owed_in_frame=0

lummel zn. ‘lomperik, sukkel’(lubberhead)
Nnl. lummel ‘lomperik’ [1705; WNT].
Wrsch. ontleend aan Nederduits lummel ‘lomperik’ en/of Hoogduits Lümmel ‘id.’ [16e eeuw; Kluge], afleiding van Middelhoogduits lüeme ‘slap’ (weak) < Oudhoogduits luomi ‘mild, vriendelijk’ (mild, friendly), zie → loom.
♦ lummelen ww. ‘luierend zijn tijd verdoen’(to mooch about). Nnl. lummelen [1889; WNT]. Afleiding van lummel.

lummel (lubberhead), sluit het gemakkelijkst aan bij ndd. lumm ‘mat, slap’, dat wellicht evenals zaans lom ‘loom, stram’ en ouder-nnl. lomme(n) ‘sukkel, sul’ met loom (zie dat woord Suppl.) in — eventueel jongere — ablaut staat. Vgl. verder nog keuls läumele, läumere ‘langzaam rollen’ (Holthausen GRM. 8, 249), noorw. dial. luma ‘staan te hangen’, lume ‘lummelig, log persoon’ (Falk Ark. 41, 128), die bij dezelfde woordgroep zouden kunnen behoren, maar ook zeer wel jonge formaties kunnen zijn.


http://www.etymologi...refwoord/lummel



Lam (verlamd/lame), van den Germ. wt. Lam = krachteloos (weak) zijn. Verwant is loom (lethargic)
en belemmeren (to hinder); het Mnl. lemen bet.: lam maken, van leme = verlamming. Zie Leemte.

http://www.etymologi.../trefwoord/loom


"Lam maken/makia" = to make lame, to paralyze.

"Loom maken/makia" = to make one feel lazy, to make one feel without energy

"Loma maken/makia = to make one move slowly

"Loom maken/makia" = to make (a) tool(s)

"Lumme maken/makia" = maybe something like: 'to make something of loam?

"Lime maken/makia" = to produce lime (chalk/glue)

Puzz's suggestion: to make warm (and so on), or better, to warm up (something)


+++++++++++++++++++


No wonder all the translators of the OLB left this name, Lumka-makia, untranslated and didn't have a single clue where to locate this city, lol.


.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 January 2012 - 07:00 PM.

[Abramelin]

lilthor, on 18 January 2012 - 06:50 PM, said:

Lumka

Leuko meaning white (Greek)

Illuminate meaning to make bright

Could it mean "white sword" or "bright sword"?


No, I am not suggesting "light saber"...

Lol, I didn't even see you there.

But yes, that's something I suggested earlier: Shining Sword; LUME(N) - light, shiny , MAKIA = sword.
And by another etymology: sword of merit, stylish sword, royal sword


Maybe the next 10 pages will be about Excalibur and King Arthur, lol.

Don't forget: the Vimose sword was an offering found in a lake.


++++++++++++++++

EDIT:

Merlin took Arthur to a magic lake when the sword from the stone was broken in a fight. At the lake, an arm clothed in white samite reached up from the center of the lake holding a shining sword with a golden hilt studded with jewels, a jeweled scabbard, and a belt. A beautiful maiden known as the Lady of the Lake offered Arthur the sword, which she named Excalibur, as a gift, then she summoned a wondrous barge that took the King across to the lake. As Arthur buckled on Excalibur, Merlin told him to guard the scabbard well because its power would protect the King no matter how much he was wounded.

http://iusd.org/vv/L...es/Page4053.htm


Egbertyne = Shining Sword - female - English

http://www.baby-name.../egbertyne.html
http://www.baby-name...aning/tyne.html

Wtf?! "'Excalibur' means "shining sword". Perhaps it was like a beacon towards a better England."
http://uk.answers.ya...09092110AA5l035

Nah: http://tech.groups.y...t/message/46985


Or?

So endeth the story of the winning of Excalibur, and may God give unto you in your life, that you may have His truth to aid you, like a shining sword, for to overcome your enemies; and may He give you Faith (for Faith containeth Truth as a scabbard containeth its sword), and may that Faith heal all your wounds of sorrow as the sheath of Excalibur healed all the wounds of him who wore that excellent weapon. For with Truth and Faith girded upon you, you shall be as well able to fight all your battles as did that noble hero of old, whom men called King Arthur.

http://www.2020site....ur/calibur.html
http://www.candlelig...word-chapter-3/


Merlin reminded him, that the Scabbard was more important the sword for when it is at your side, you shall bleed no blood, nor feel any pain. "Who is she" Whispered Arthur. As Arthur stood up upon the shore gazing into the still waters, he suddenly saw a most strange site: rising out of the middle of the lake was an arm draped in smoke white silk, holding a loft a shining Sword!"Behold" said Merlin "this is the sword of which I spoke".

http://www.megaessay...aper/45893.html

====

And then I could remind you all of what I wrote about the Alans, a Sarmatian tribe who wandered through Europe and ended up in Brittany (and elsewhere, like North Africa)) and may have introduced the legend of Arthur and that sword (one of their legends was about a sword stuck in stone), and I could remind you all that according to one link in one of my recent posts someone said the Vimose sword may well have been a Sarmatian sword (also because of other finds in Vimose)... but I won't.

I wonder what Goffe Jensma had to say about Lumka-makia. I guess he didn't say much about it, heh...

.

Edited by Abramelin, 18 January 2012 - 07:49 PM.

[Knul]

The Puzzler, on 18 January 2012 - 07:12 AM, said:

About son and sunu/sunum/svnvm...

  u-stems
          Masc.                       Fem.
                        Sg.
N  sunu (son)feld (field)  duru (door) hand (hand)
G  suna         felda          dura           handa
D  suna         felda          dura           handa
A  sunu         feld            duru           hand
                        Pl.
N  suna         felda          dura           handa
G  suna         felda          dura           handa
D  sunum      feldum       durum         handum
A  suna         felda          dura           handa


Also:

Here it is seen clearly how Old English lost its final -s in endings: Gothic had sunus and handus, while Old English has already sunu and hand respectively. Interesting that dropping final consonants is also a general trend of almost all Indo-European languages. Ancient tongues still keep them everywhere - Greek, Latin, Gothic, Old Prussian, Sanskrit, Old Irish; but later, no matter where a language is situated and what processes it undergoes, final consonants (namely -s, -t, often -m, -n) disappear, remaining nowadays only in the two Baltic languages and in New Greek
http://babaev.tripod.../grammar41.html

The matter is that pural dative is used instead of plural nominative/accusative, sunum instead of suna.

Edited by Knul, 18 January 2012 - 10:06 PM.

[Abramelin]

Knul, on 18 January 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

The matter is that pural dative is used instead of plural nominative/accusative, sunum instead of suna.

I posted about that before, but who really reads that stuff, eh?

Linguistics is not kid's play.

[Abramelin]

Just for the record, this is what I posted a while ago concerning "Lumka-makia":

Lymke afgeleid van Limme (Volk) >> Lymke, derived from Limme (people/folk)
Limke afgeleid van Limme (Volk) >> Limke, deribed from Limme (people/folk)
Lemke afgeleid van Lam (Bos) >>> Lemke, derived from Lam (woods/forest)

Post 6549, page 437

http://www.unexplain...=184645&st=6540

I don't think this was of any real help for finding out the meaning of that damn name.

[Otharus]

"Het is alleszins de moeite waard van het OLB, als van een echte geschiedbron, kennis te nemen,
indien men zich voor de oude vaderlandse geschiedenis interesseert.

Het is bovendien de moeite waard, de methodes, waarmee het HS in de loop van ruim 100 jaar
werd verguisd en het publiek gedesinformeerd, aan een nader onderzoek te onderwerpen,
indien men zich voor zuivere denk-en discussiemethodes interesseert.

Tenslotte is het altijd de moeite waard, de reputatie van achtenswaardige lieden,
die ten onrechte voor falsificateur of mystificateur gehouden zijn, te repareren,
indien men de normen van het maatschappelijk verkeer wil hooghouden."

- - - - - -

(inprovised translation)

"It is by all means worth the effort,
to learn from the OLB, as if it were a real historical source,
if one is interested in old history.

Above that it is worth the effort,
to research the methods used in over a 100 years,
to revile the manuscript and disinform the public,
if one is interested in pure methods of thinking and discussing.

Ultimately it is always worth the effort,
to repair the reputation of respectable people,
that have been falsely accused of being forgers and lyars,
if one wants to uphold a society of high ethical values."

- - - - - -

's-Gravenhage, 5 September 1989.

Mr. N. Luitse

Conclusion of OLB-Lecture for a society in The Hague.

- - - - - -

Alewyn or anyone else, can you make a better translation?

[Otharus]

Yesterday at Tresoar, the Frisian archive of treasures, I read some of the letters that Cornelis Over de Linden wrote to Jan Ottema.

It is clear to me that these gentlemen trusted and respected eachother.

If the manuscript was a forgery, and Over de Linden was one of the forgerers, he has not just lied to Ottema; he would have ruined Ottema's carreer and life in a most heartbreakingly evil way.

This is utterly unlikely.

Cornelis Over de Linden was a good man.

I suspect him of one little lie only:
He did not received the manuscript from his aunt Aafje, but got or took it from her daughter, his cousin Cornelia Kofman-Reuvers.

Edited by Otharus, 19 January 2012 - 11:03 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 18 January 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

Just for the record, this is what I posted a while ago concerning "Lumka-makia":

Lymke afgeleid van Limme (Volk) >> Lymke, derived from Limme (people/folk)
Limke afgeleid van Limme (Volk) >> Limke, deribed from Limme (people/folk)
Lemke afgeleid van Lam (Bos) >>> Lemke, derived from Lam (woods/forest)

Post 6549, page 437

http://www.unexplain...=184645&st=6540

I don't think this was of any real help for finding out the meaning of that damn name.

I'll tell you what I reckon concerning makija as sword. That word does not connect to makia. It comes from MACE, as in club, weapon. Mattock comes from the same word

I found this link which has the actually runic writing, it says MACIA.
http://books.google....ymology&f=false

Now, the OLB is clearly makia, it's in East Flyland, there is no reason for this word in the OLB to be anything other than make, place of making...

WHat did they make, lumka. Admittedly lumka comes through Old Norse not Frisian that I know yet, as to heat, but to fire or burn something, fire working area, which may have produced swords certainly but another thing I'm thinking of that you need red hot heat to make, and is another lm word is lime. Lime works. I haven't actually found any limeworks in East Flyland but it wouldn't surprise me. They seem common in England and there is Bronze Age limeworks on Gotland (I have to do more checking on that later).

Edited by The Puzzler, 19 January 2012 - 11:14 AM.