11638 replies to this topic

[lilthor]

Not to deviate from the direction of the thread but ...

What is known of the archaeology of the larger burcht mounds like found at Leiden?  Have they ever been excavated to any extent?

If they date to 800 CE, what was at those sites during the 3-4k years prior to that?  One could imagine they long held raised structures of some kind for observation and even escape from floods (for a few}.

In 800 CE they perhaps decided they could see better and save more people by raising the ground and then building a tower.

But what artifacts might be found buried in the strata of such huge mounds?  And at the very bottom, maybe the foundation ruins of a citadel (hex shaped, of course)?

[Otharus]

lilthor, on 24 January 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

If they date to 800 CE, what was at those sites during the 3-4k years prior to that?  

One could imagine they long held raised structures of some kind for observation and even escape from floods (for a few}.

Very good question.

Although not much was found indeed, it is hard to imagine that this most strategic and fertile delta was NOT inhabited all those millennia.

My guess is that for ages there was plenty of excellent oakwood (perfect for ships, pole-houses, watch-towers etc., but very flammable in times of war), untill the area was almost completely deforested and the bog-soil (result of age-old forrests) shrinked to become lying below sealevel.

[The Puzzler]

lilthor, on 24 January 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

Not to deviate from the direction of the thread but ...

What is known of the archaeology of the larger burcht mounds like found at Leiden?  Have they ever been excavated to any extent?

If they date to 800 CE, what was at those sites during the 3-4k years prior to that?  One could imagine they long held raised structures of some kind for observation and even escape from floods (for a few}.

In 800 CE they perhaps decided they could see better and save more people by raising the ground and then building a tower.

But what artifacts might be found buried in the strata of such huge mounds?  And at the very bottom, maybe the foundation ruins of a citadel (hex shaped, of course)?

I think it's a really interesting thought, it seems to me, as per the Baltic theory which stems from the Ertebolle culture, which this next article is about but mentions also another closely related people in the Netherlands, the part mentioned is now dry. The landscape lends itself to so much build up and washing away, I think it very possible that more can be found. To me, these early cultures would have developed into the Nordic Bronze Age cultures of the same areas.

In the 1960s and 1970s another closely related culture was found in the (now dry) Noordoostpolder in the Netherlands, near the village Swifterbant and the former island of Urk. Named the Swifterbant culture (5300 - 3400 BC) they show a transition from hunter-gatherer to both animal husbandry, primarily cows and pigs, and cultivation of barley and emmer wheat.[1] During the formative stages contact with nearby Linear Pottery culture settlements in Limburg[disambiguation needed ] has been detected. Like the Ertebølle culture, they lived near open water, in this case creeks, riverdunes and bogs along post-glacial banks of the Overijsselse Vecht. Recent excavations[2] show a local continuity going back to (at least) 5600 BC, when burial practices resembled the contemporary gravefields in Denmark and South Sweden "in all details", suggesting only part of a diverse ancestral "Ertebølle"-like heritage was locally continued into the later (Middle Neolithic) Swifterbant tradition (4200 - 3400 BC).

http://en.wikipedia....ebølle_culture
http://en.wikipedia....Noordoostpolder


Bronze Age research on settlements in the Netherlands:
http://leidenuniv.ac...e_Low_Countries
Page 8 and 10 mentions West Frisian archaeological attempts.

Edited by The Puzzler, 24 January 2012 - 09:21 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 23 January 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

If you go look on the etymologyonline site, you'll read the same for "cattle" : cash.

There you go then. That is what I think too.

JRTHA BÀRDE ... ALLET DJARA KWIK ÀND ALLE.T ÀRGE KWIK

The Earth made all dear/good (living -things everything/alive - sudden life) and all bad (living everything - life).

That is what I'd generally put for a translation to this particular part.

Edited by The Puzzler, 24 January 2012 - 09:30 AM.

[Abramelin]

lilthor, on 24 January 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

Not to deviate from the direction of the thread but ...

What is known of the archaeology of the larger burcht mounds like found at Leiden?  Have they ever been excavated to any extent?

If they date to 800 CE, what was at those sites during the 3-4k years prior to that?  One could imagine they long held raised structures of some kind for observation and even escape from floods (for a few}.

In 800 CE they perhaps decided they could see better and save more people by raising the ground and then building a tower.

But what artifacts might be found buried in the strata of such huge mounds?  And at the very bottom, maybe the foundation ruins of a citadel (hex shaped, of course)?

This is no deviation of the thread, Lilthor, it fits perfectly.. think "OLB citadels".

Most of these burchts started as a defence against the water (river and/or sea) and the invading Vikings. At first they were nothing but a ringed wall made of clay and stones and a mound with people living inside the ring or right outside it. Later on a kind of (wooden) watchtower was erected on the edge of the ring, and the last stage was known as a motte-and-bailey castle made from brick with a moat around it.

http://en.wikipedia....rcht_van_Leiden

http://en.wikipedia....d-bailey_castle



And these structures are never older than maybe a 1000-1200 years.

They have done extensive research in many of these socalled "vliedburchts" or "vliedbergs" (refuge mounds) in many places in The Netherlands.

A good way to search for these structures online is by using "ringwalburcht" :

http://www.google.nl..._G2I8fsOfqrnasO



When you enter that word in this thread (or motte or or only ringwall) you will find where we discussed this.

+++

EDIT:

Oh, and archeologists did dig to the bottom of the remnants of those structures.

The oldest ones started as nothing but 'terps' (artificial mounds).

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vliedberg
http://nl.wikipedia....van_vliedbergen

.

Edited by Abramelin, 24 January 2012 - 10:51 AM.

[Abramelin]

The Puzzler, on 23 January 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

Weird.

My post #9613


I haven't checked it - I just went to open up the Oera Linda book site on angelfire and this message came up on my computer:

This website has been reported as unsafe
oeralinda.angelfire.com

We recommend that you do not continue to this website.
Go to my home page instead

This website has been reported to Microsoft for containing threats to your computer that might reveal personal or financial information

Just in case any of you try to open it, I have had that warning for some unknown reason.

Puzz, I think you use Windows7 and IE9, and most probably a new update for IE9 has been installed on your computer.

Go to Tools > Internet Options > and so on. Check if the settings of your browse history ( >> Cookies) have been reset after the update. If so, set it back to how it was.

I can again visit the angelfire site: http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

.

Edited by Abramelin, 24 January 2012 - 11:49 AM.

[The Puzzler]

Abramelin, on 24 January 2012 - 11:27 AM, said:

Puzz, I think you use Windows7 and IE9, and most probably a new update for IE9 has been installed on your computer.

Go to Tools > Internet Options > and so on. Check if the settings of your browse history ( >> Cookies) have been reset after the update. If so, set it back to how it was.

I can again visit the angelfire site: http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

.

I do use Windows 7, probably IE9, ok, I'll check it out, thanks.

EDIT:  When I open it now,(the link you gave) I didn't change anything - it says pdf - download in a big green box...?

Edited by The Puzzler, 24 January 2012 - 01:15 PM.

[Abramelin]

Try blocking pop-ups ("Tools" again).

I don't see that notification about a pdf or green box.

[Knul]

The Puzzler, on 24 January 2012 - 09:28 AM, said:

There you go then. That is what I think too.

JRTHA BÀRDE ... ALLET DJARA KWIK ÀND ALLE.T ÀRGE KWIK

The Earth made all dear/good (living -things everything/alive - sudden life) and all bad (living everything - life).

That is what I'd generally put for a translation to this particular part.

Kwik is a general term for animals, which are divided in useful (djara) and not useful (arge).

[Abramelin]

IN THE YEAR ONE THOUSAND AND FIVE AFTER ATLAND WAS SUBMERGED, THIS WAS INSCRIBED ON THE EASTERN WALL OF FRYASBURGT.



Fon thisse kêning is hyr en skryver aefterbilêwen fon rên Fryas blod, baern to thêre nêie have fon Athênia aend hwat hyr folgath het er vs fon ovir Athênia skrêven, thêrut mêi maen bisluta ho wêr thja Moder Hel-licht sproken heth, thâ hja sêide thaet Fryas sêda to Athênia nên stand holde ne kvste.

Van deze koning is hier een schrijver achter(ge)bleven van rein Fryas blood, (ge)boren in de nieuwe haven van Athenia en wat hier volgt heeft'r ons over Athenia geschreven, daaruit mag men besluiten hoe waar de Moeder Hel-licht gesproken heeft, daar zij zeide dat Fryas zeden tot Athenia niet stand houden aan de kusten.

There was left behind by this king a writer of pure Frya’s blood, born in the new harbour of Athens, who wrote for us what follows about Athens, from which may be seen how truly the mother Hel-licht spoke when she said that the customs of Frya could never take firm hold in Athens.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/

It is suggested that "Hel-licht" is a personal name, but it must mean nothing but "bright light", like the mother spoke the clear bright truth or something.

[Otharus]

Abramelin, on 24 January 2012 - 04:10 PM, said:

It is suggested that "Hel-licht" is a personal name, but it must mean nothing but "bright light", like the mother spoke the clear bright truth or something.

Both interpretations are valid.

[Van Gorp]

Abramelin, on 24 January 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

This is no deviation of the thread, Lilthor, it fits perfectly.. think "OLB citadels".

Most of these burchts started as a defence against the water (river and/or sea) and the invading Vikings. At first they were nothing but a ringed wall made of clay and stones and a mound with people living inside the ring or right outside it. Later on a kind of (wooden) watchtower was erected on the edge of the ring, and the last stage was known as a motte-and-bailey castle made from brick with a moat around it.

http://en.wikipedia....rcht_van_Leiden

http://en.wikipedia....d-bailey_castle



And these structures are never older than maybe a 1000-1200 years.

They have done extensive research in many of these socalled "vliedburchts" or "vliedbergs" (refuge mounds) in many places in The Netherlands.

A good way to search for these structures online is by using "ringwalburcht" :

http://www.google.nl..._G2I8fsOfqrnasO



When you enter that word in this thread (or motte or or only ringwall) you will find where we discussed this.

+++

EDIT:

Oh, and archeologists did dig to the bottom of the remnants of those structures.

The oldest ones started as nothing but 'terps' (artificial mounds).

http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vliedberg
http://nl.wikipedia....van_vliedbergen

.

'Terp' sounds familiar. 'tEurp we say when talking about our 'Dorp', village.
Seems logical to me that this has become the center of the village.

Er-Op: Aarde, Clay (Er) Op

BTW: Flanders (Vlaanderen) is said to come also from Vlye-Landers (Vloeien/Vlieën).

Abramelin: with your knowledge ... did you come across the meaning of land coming from 'to land'?
Land(ers) could be interpreted as "the people that landed on the shore (where you 'land')"

[Otharus]

For the dutch-language readers (sorry, no time to translate yet), here's a relevant chapter from:

Friesche Oudheden ~ Afbeeldingen van Merkwaardige Voorwerpen van Wetenschap en Kunst, gevonden in de Archieven, Kerken, Kasteelen, Terpen enz. van Friesland.
Published by the Friesch Genootschap (1875).
Page 48-50

http://images.tresoa...he_Oudheden.pdf


(part left out by me)



BTW, the preceding chapter ("De Staf- of Runenkalender") is very interesting too...

Edited by Otharus, 24 January 2012 - 09:40 PM.

[Otharus]

Van Gorp, do you know this book?

Belgisch Museum vd Nederduitse Tael- en Letterkunde en de Geschiedenis des Vaderlands (1837) by Willems

http://books.google....epage&q&f=false

It's on my to read-list it.

[Abramelin]

Van Gorp, on 24 January 2012 - 07:22 PM, said:

'Terp' sounds familiar. 'tEurp we say when talking about our 'Dorp', village.
Seems logical to me that this has become the center of the village.

Er-Op: Aarde, Clay (Er) Op

BTW: Flanders (Vlaanderen) is said to come also from Vlye-Landers (Vloeien/Vlieën).

Abramelin: with your knowledge ... did you come across the meaning of land coming from 'to land'?
Land(ers) could be interpreted as "the people that landed on the shore (where you 'land')"

Based on my "knowledge", I'd advise you to go study linguistics, or just read up upon it.

What you are doing now is near to what a simpleton would come up with.

And I don't think you are a simpleton.

But yeah, "dorp" is etymologically linked to "terp".