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Hyksos, Habiru, and the Hebrews


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#166    SlimJim22

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 09:01 PM

View Postdanielost, on 10 July 2010 - 07:58 PM, said:

the one thing that bothers me is that after sariah died.  abraham got remarried and had 12 more kids, what happened to them.

6 six with Keturah and 12 sons plus Mahalath descending from Ishmael. What is your understanding of the meaning of Ishmael?

http://en.wikipedia....9;s_family_tree

Did Abraham and Ishmael build the Kaaba as islam claims? What is the blackstone all about? Wasn't their something similar on Cyprus devoted to Aphrodite, the closest we to Apiru imo? Read that apiru may refer to non-israelite hebrews, dunno.

Can't find much on Keturah. Wiki seems to think it may be the line of Midianites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keturah

There are many groups that may be akin to the descendants of Abraham but there is so much info out there. Maybe Elamites or Ammorites, maybe Hurrians. I do not know but tradition says that the sons of Ishmael occupied Arabia as far as India and obviously we have the twelve tribes based around the area of the Tigris-Euphrates.

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#167    danielost

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 10:42 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 10 July 2010 - 09:01 PM, said:

6 six with Keturah and 12 sons plus Mahalath descending from Ishmael. What is your understanding of the meaning of Ishmael?

http://en.wikipedia....9;s_family_tree

Did Abraham and Ishmael build the Kaaba as islam claims? What is the blackstone all about? Wasn't their something similar on Cyprus devoted to Aphrodite, the closest we to Apiru imo? Read that apiru may refer to non-israelite hebrews, dunno.

Can't find much on Keturah. Wiki seems to think it may be the line of Midianites.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keturah

There are many groups that may be akin to the descendants of Abraham but there is so much info out there. Maybe Elamites or Ammorites, maybe Hurrians. I do not know but tradition says that the sons of Ishmael occupied Arabia as far as India and obviously we have the twelve tribes based around the area of the Tigris-Euphrates.


supposedly the black rock is where abraham was going to sacrifice isaac.  why this would be important to the arabs i dont know.


i think ishmeal means man made.  since it was abrahams will not gods will.

Edited by danielost, 10 July 2010 - 10:44 PM.

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#168    SlimJim22

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Posted 10 July 2010 - 10:54 PM

When the Amarna letters were translated, some scholars equated these Apiru with the Biblical Hebrews (Hebrew: עברים or עבריים, ʿIvrim, ʿIvriyyim). Besides the similarity of their spellings, the description of the Apiru attacking cities in Canaan seems to fit the Biblical account of the conquest of that land by Israelites under Joshua.

The photographs from the 1904 Breasted Expedition to Egypt, especially those of the battle of Kadesh incribed at Abu Simbel provide one of the first recorded mentions of the ha ibr u[7] in the context of an army that messengers rushed to fetch to the battle.

Scholarly opinion remains divided on this issue. Some scholars argue that the Hapiru were a component of the later peoples who inhabited the kingdoms ruled by Saul, David, Solomon and their successors in Judah and Israel. Rainey argues that Hapiru is a generic term for bandits, not attached to a specific population. He proposes that, in the Amarna letters, Hebrews are referred as Shasu.[8]


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Habiru

There are just so many conflicting theories on the net it can become very confusing unless the rigours of academia are properly followed. Hence in conclusion I must agree with Kmt's assertions. They do all seem to be mildly distinct but with a lot in common also. I stick by most of what I have said up to this point but my thoughts are inconclusive and decent evidence outside of what I have already posted is hard to come by. I do think there is a deeper meaning just out of reach as far as proof is concerned so enough is enough.

Reposting a really worthwhile link for all who missed it.

http://www.imninalu.net/Hyksos.htm

Alternative timeline

http://neros.lordbal...ChapterFive.htm

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#169    kmt_sesh

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Posted 11 July 2010 - 05:19 AM

View PostSlimJim22, on 10 July 2010 - 03:41 PM, said:

...

It seems the Elamites (one group of proto hebrews) had a pictographic script connected to the Indus script of the Harappan culture. This may suggest a common ancestry for both in the Dravidian culture.

...

The Elamites were not proto-Hebrews, nor did they have anything to do with the Hebrews. They were ethnically and linguistically completely unrelated. It is possible the Elamites were of distant Indian descent, but they were already a well-established and thriving culture in southwest Iran at the same time the proto-historical cultures of southern Mesopotamia were coalescing into the people we call Sumerian. And as with the Sumerians, the language spoken by the Elamites remains poorly understood and its scripts largely undeciphered.

Further, I don't see any relation between any of the earliest stages of Elamite scripts and the Indus Valley script. Yes, some characters bear similarities, but that doesn't mean anything. Were it this easy, then we could say that Egyptian hieroglyphs, early Sumerian cuneiform, Elamite, Indus Valley, Minoan hieroglyphs, Luwian, Meroitic, Aztec, Mayan, and other writing systems from around the world must all bear connections because some of their characters look kind of similar. That would be unrealistic, of course.

The nature of the Indus Valley script is still hotly debated. It is even more obscure and poorly understood than the earliest Elamite writing. Archaeology magazine recently had a very interesting article on the Indus Valley script. All attempts to make sense of it have failed, and many scholars don't believe it was a true written language in the first place. That's entirely possible.

Lately you're trying to make a lot of connections between cultures of India and the Hebrews. I just don't see this as possible. The origins of the Hebrews are not all that mysterious. They were definitely Western Semitic in ethnicity and language and, almost certainly, rose from among their Canaanite kin along the Levantine coast in the collapse of the Bronze Age. I don't see any identifiable connections with the peoples of India.

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#170    SlimJim22

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Posted 11 July 2010 - 07:22 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 11 July 2010 - 05:19 AM, said:

The Elamites were not proto-Hebrews, nor did they have anything to do with the Hebrews. They were ethnically and linguistically completely unrelated. It is possible the Elamites were of distant Indian descent, but they were already a well-established and thriving culture in southwest Iran at the same time the proto-historical cultures of southern Mesopotamia were coalescing into the people we call Sumerian. And as with the Sumerians, the language spoken by the Elamites remains poorly understood and its scripts largely undeciphered.

Further, I don't see any relation between any of the earliest stages of Elamite scripts and the Indus Valley script. Yes, some characters bear similarities, but that doesn't mean anything. Were it this easy, then we could say that Egyptian hieroglyphs, early Sumerian cuneiform, Elamite, Indus Valley, Minoan hieroglyphs, Luwian, Meroitic, Aztec, Mayan, and other writing systems from around the world must all bear connections because some of their characters look kind of similar. That would be unrealistic, of course.

The nature of the Indus Valley script is still hotly debated. It is even more obscure and poorly understood than the earliest Elamite writing. Archaeology magazine recently had a very interesting article on the Indus Valley script. All attempts to make sense of it have failed, and many scholars don't believe it was a true written language in the first place. That's entirely possible.

Lately you're trying to make a lot of connections between cultures of India and the Hebrews. I just don't see this as possible. The origins of the Hebrews are not all that mysterious. They were definitely Western Semitic in ethnicity and language and, almost certainly, rose from among their Canaanite kin along the Levantine coast in the collapse of the Bronze Age. I don't see any identifiable connections with the peoples of India.

Yes, due to the Saraswati river flowing near to Mesopatamia I see this as a convenient means of contact between people of the Indus with those of Sumer, Akkad and Elam. Could be much of east African coast had contact also. There is a some debate over the years into this area.

http://en.wikipedia....idian_languages

I understand it is hard to believe that there was contact so far a field but I don't find it that surprising if it were true, I'm not saying it was but considering how fertile the Indus valley was and how rich in gemstones, gold and incense it makes sense that there was a lot of trade. Maybe as far as Egypt even. I am not saying hebrews were not western semitic just that the picture is extrememly complex and that people of Cannaan may not have been too disimilar from the Dravidians or Harappans. They were not the same for sure but they may have shared ethnic or cultural traits .

http://pragati.natio...in-mesopotamia/

I have already conceded that from an archeological perspective there is not enough to support my line of thinking but from a spiritual perspective I have reason to think that the Indus valley civilzation had a much stronger powerbase than is accepted and had colonies of some kind in Mesopatamia. Abram probbaly being one in a line before him that rose to prominence due to the political setting of the time.

Have you been checking my links Kmt, I understand they are a bit much sometimes but some have stood out as being really good I thought. The one on the Hyskos and one on the Chaldeans. I can take solace in thinking there are many in the world who see the same connections as me but I respect your opinion greatly so will try and refrain from going over the same ground in future. I'll give it a rest for a while but thanks for this thread as it has helped me to learn a lot even if I don't agree with all I am learning.

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#171    Eldorado

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Posted 11 July 2010 - 08:32 AM

View Postdanielost, on 09 July 2010 - 07:36 PM, said:

tell that to somene with that name.

oh i dont know like daniel lee osterloh.

oh wait you just did.

Apologies, my friend.

So tell me, please...what does the Oriental name "Lee" mean?

Your name as above looks like it's the "meadow" variety of Lee. (lea) imo

Edited by Eldorado, 11 July 2010 - 08:46 AM.


#172    danielost

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Posted 11 July 2010 - 01:53 PM

View PostEldorado, on 11 July 2010 - 08:32 AM, said:

Apologies, my friend.

So tell me, please...what does the Oriental name "Lee" mean?

Your name as above looks like it's the "meadow" variety of Lee. (lea) imo

got it backward lee is eurapean.
li is a last name i dont know what it means.

i wasnt offended just pretended

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#173    Habiru-Hebrew speaker

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 12:24 PM

Hello
I wanted to note few things :
that the word that appears in the "Merneptah victory stela, dating to around 1207 BCE".
Is "Israel" (i.si.ri.ar/al),which is the first evidence we have today,to use that name.
In addition, as a Hebrew speaker I can contribute the following information:
in Biblical Hebrew language ,as the transmission of the language of those days, we can find few  Manifestations & lightting information regarding that topic -

The 2 similar words -"ever" & "ivri"(hebrew/hebrew man:

The word "Hebrew" pronouce in hebrew as - "ivri". (hebrew & roots :in Hebrew there is one root for evry word and every root is usually three letters contains &  on every single root meny diferent words are installed,so 1 root creatting some related words), the root of the 2 words pronounce as "ivri"(=hebrew man)& "ever"(= a side ,a bank,a part of ,an organ) is same root (the root -"ע.ב.ר" or - E'.V/b . r ).
the word "ivri" means also just simply gramerly the meaning of : someone who is like "ever" ,on of the ever's if we can say,or also-one of he's sones <(1. "ever"=ever ,2. ivr+I/y =of ever )same like in english stupid & stupidity, Bird & Birdy. Or in Hebrew. "tanach"(bible)&  "tanachi"(Biblical),or "ever" (ever) & "ivri"(some on of ever/one of hes sones,estr..) > its
Interestingly to see the gynulogy chain described Abraham's ancestors fathers (Genesis chapt-11-) the appearance  (the seventh behind him) the character of "ever" (Genesis chapt-11,vrs nom-16 ) .so may of course it's  possible  that he is an ancient  father of he's sons -"ivrim"(the Hebrews )so is true to say at least  in Hebrew grammar.also the next one ,the sone of "ever"(side,bank..)he's name was  "peleg"', which means in Hebrew : a branch ,a link,a split. So it's like something important happened in that point of the gynology, a new "link",branch was created.in the bible most of names have a clear language (hebrew) relation/meaning
That is possible that "ever" was an ancestor father of the Hebrews ,that Abraham w

Edited by Habiru-Hebrew speaker, 13 July 2010 - 12:59 PM.


#174    SlimJim22

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Posted 13 July 2010 - 03:09 PM

View PostHabiru-Hebrew speaker, on 13 July 2010 - 12:24 PM, said:

Hello
I wanted to note few things :
that the word that appears in the "Merneptah victory stela, dating to around 1207 BCE".
Is "Israel" (i.si.ri.ar/al),which is the first evidence we have today,to use that name.
In addition, as a Hebrew speaker I can contribute the following information:
in Biblical Hebrew language ,as the transmission of the language of those days, we can find few  Manifestations & lightting information regarding that topic -

The 2 similar words -"ever" & "ivri"(hebrew/hebrew man:

The word "Hebrew" pronouce in hebrew as - "ivri". (hebrew & roots :in Hebrew there is one root for evry word and every root is usually three letters contains &  on every single root meny diferent words are installed,so 1 root creatting some related words), the root of the 2 words pronounce as "ivri"(=hebrew man)& "ever"(= a side ,a bank,a part of ,an organ) is same root (the root -"ע.ב.ר" or - E'.V/b . r ).
the word "ivri" means also just simply gramerly the meaning of : someone who is like "ever" ,on of the ever's if we can say,or also-one of he's sones <(1. "ever"=ever ,2. ivr+I/y =of ever )same like in english stupid & stupidity, Bird & Birdy. Or in Hebrew. "tanach"(bible)&  "tanachi"(Biblical),or "ever" (ever) & "ivri"(some on of ever/one of hes sones,estr..) > its
Interestingly to see the gynulogy chain described Abraham's ancestors fathers (Genesis chapt-11-) the appearance  (the seventh behind him) the character of "ever" (Genesis chapt-11,vrs nom-16 ) .so may of course it's  possible  that he is an ancient  father of he's sons -"ivrim"(the Hebrews )so is true to say at least  in Hebrew grammar.also the next one ,the sone of "ever"(side,bank..)he's name was  "peleg"', which means in Hebrew : a branch ,a link,a split. So it's like something important happened in that point of the gynology, a new "link",branch was created.in the bible most of names have a clear language (hebrew) relation/meaning
That is possible that "ever" was an ancestor father of the Hebrews ,that Abraham w

So, Shem is described as "the father of all of the children of Eber". This seems like a bit of a strange statement. I agree with what you have said and am interested in your opinion on potential connections with the Abhiras of India and Avaris of the Hyksos. Also, as to Ophir being located in India.

Also, of interest I find some of the other descendants of Shem. Elam of the Elamites seems to be important as to the make up of ethnic populations in Mesopatamia but the name Arphacsad seems slightly out of place to me. Can you provide meanings for any other names that could be realted to explain how the descendants of Noah may have made up populations of the region?

This is also quite interesting, any thoughts?

http://www.spiritand...escendants.html

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#175    Habiru-Hebrew speaker

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 09:23 AM

hello slimjim
fierst let me pleaze coerct that, the pronaunciation acording to hebrew bible is -Ever- end not -eber-.
second, i didnt understand some of yr questions . u were saying : "So, Shem is described as "the father of all of the children of Eber" were this is tacking from ?

2-." I agree with what you have said and am interested in your opinion on potential connections with the Abhiras of India and Avaris of the Hyksos". i didnt meant to the abihiras of india but to the avidental name of a people in mesopothemya call afiru or abiru

"shem" is considering as the father of all semical (shemim in hebrew) people (today mostly arabs & jews , in past- all nations of mesopotemya,egypt ,the anciant middle east  people-phenicians end str..
shem in hebrew means : name
also its means in religious expretion : the name of god or just -God .
shem hade meny sones end they hade meny sones,- shem was1of them(grandson of shem ).
thats all i can relate to the hebrew language help about the name of -shem- .

slimjim can u plz help me ? :   i didnt understand - when i was searching the forum of -habiru hyxos..- the search gave me only this - my massage from last time end your replay . my questiones:
1-how can i get to the forum, like i did b4 ?
2- is it posible i opened a new forum section  without knowing ?  does otheres can see our replies ?  thanks end good day/nigt


#176    Habiru-Hebrew speaker

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 10:03 AM

in some "Midrash" (the Hebrew/jewish legend Literature) there are legend tells that Abraham, on his way from Mesopotamia to Canaan - preached the monotheism faith basic in diferant places. Actually he created this few centers of this belief.
It can connect with the islamic traditions of Abraham Temple built of tha kaabah.
also, I know that historians now know that this was a religious center also before the beginning of Islam, probably pagan tample of peoples  of Saudi Arabia.
The interesting thing is (and even many  Hebrew speakers did not notice it) that The pronunciation of the word kabah sounds like Hebrew pronunciation of "hakabah)/ " hakaba"(הקב"ה )"expression  to God(I do not know when it was tarted 2b in use). The phrase "HAKABAH" is an acronym of: the(ha) holy one (bah)(bah= kadosh<holy> bruch<blesseded>  hu<him/he  --->  so in another words :  הקב"ה  (hakabah)=
H-HA(the)  K-KADOSH(holy) B-BARUCH(blessed) H-HU(him/he) =The holy one/the holy one is the blessed one
ה=the -ha
ק=holy-kadosh
ב=baruch-blesseded
ה=hu- him /he
the letters pronunciation : ה-H  ק-K  ב-B ה-H

Edited by Habiru-Hebrew speaker, 26 July 2010 - 10:26 AM.


#177    Habiru-Hebrew speaker

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 10:33 AM

hello
if u ask about the name lee - what i can help with is that in hebrew the word lee
לי
means -for me .


#178    Habiru-Hebrew speaker

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 10:38 AM

hellow everyone
i am truing to replay to a sertain coments /people and i was expecting to see my replay next to the massage i was replaying to, but it's always appear at the and of list . can someone help ?
aufcource i am glad to help any qwuestions regardind mysteries of the bible and/or with the special relationes knolege the hebrew language gives as  and with the knolege i have at this language and some baces of knolege about jewdaism and the bible


#179    kmt_sesh

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 02:38 PM

View PostHabiru-Hebrew speaker, on 26 July 2010 - 10:38 AM, said:

hellow everyone
i am truing to replay to a sertain coments /people and i was expecting to see my replay next to the massage i was replaying to, but it's always appear at the and of list . can someone help ?
aufcource i am glad to help any qwuestions regardind mysteries of the bible and/or with the special relationes knolege the hebrew language gives as  and with the knolege i have at this language and some baces of knolege about jewdaism and the bible

Hello, Habiru-Hebrew speaker.

The newest post in a thread will always appear at the very end. It will not be grouped next to or below or alongside an earlier post to which you're replying. But if you want to reference a particular post and make comments about it, click the "Reply" button immediately below that particular post. This will open up a post window that will quote the body of the earlier post above the comments you wish to make in your new post. Your new post will still appear at the very end, but it will preserve in quote tags the earlier post on which you're commenting. :)

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#180    Habiru-Hebrew speaker

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Posted 26 July 2010 - 08:49 PM

View PostHabiru-Hebrew speaker, on 26 July 2010 - 09:23 AM, said:

hello slimjim
fierst let me pleaze coerct that, the pronaunciation acording to hebrew bible is -Ever- end not -eber-.
second, i didnt understand some of yr questions . u were saying : "So, Shem is described as "the father of all of the children of Eber" were this is tacking from ?

2-." I agree with what you have said and am interested in your opinion on potential connections with the Abhiras of India and Avaris of the Hyksos". i didnt meant to the abihiras of india but to the avidental name of a people in mesopothemya call afiru or abiru

"shem" is considering as the father of all semical (shemim in hebrew) people (today mostly arabs & jews , in past- all nations of mesopotemya,egypt ,the anciant middle east  people-phenicians end str..
shem in hebrew means : name
also its means in religious expretion : the name of god or just -God .
shem hade meny sones end they hade meny sones,- shem was1of them(son of grandson of shem ).
thats all i can relate to the hebrew language help about the name of -shem- .

slimjim can u plz help me ? :   i didnt understand - when i was searching the forum of -habiru hyxos..- the search gave me only this - my massage from last time end your replay . my questiones:
1-how can i get to the forum, like i did b4 ?
2- is it posible i opened a new forum section  without knowing ?  does otheres can see our replies ?  thanks end good day/nigt






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