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Hyksos, Habiru, and the Hebrews


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#46    SlimJim22

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 05:04 PM

Still reading these links but you may want to che them out. Very interesting if a little speculative but the basic premise is that Chaldeans actually refers to an indian sect of Brahmins called Kaul Deva. Yeah I know I hadn't heard this one either and this is an area I am fond of i.e. hebrews > brahmins > druids but from this new evidence it might have to go brahmins > hebrews > druids.

http://www.redicecre...ar/abraham.html

I had never heard of this next one either and it will take me a while to get to grips with all of the ideas.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Anacalypsis

If it is hogwash please tell me.

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#47    The_Spartan

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 06:06 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 27 June 2010 - 05:04 PM, said:

Still reading these links but you may want to che them out. Very interesting if a little speculative but the basic premise is that Chaldeans actually refers to an indian sect of Brahmins called Kaul Deva. Yeah I know I hadn't heard this one either and this is an area I am fond of i.e. hebrews > brahmins > druids but from this new evidence it might have to go brahmins > hebrews > druids.

http://www.redicecre...ar/abraham.html

I had never heard of this next one either and it will take me a while to get to grips with all of the ideas.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Anacalypsis

If it is hogwash please tell me.



Higgins coins the term " Pandeism" as to from the Kingdom of "Pandea" as that of Pandae, the daughter of Cristna.

May i ask who is this Pandea or cristna? Any info?

and he makes the same linking to Pandu, the father of the pandavas and brother to Kuru , the father of the kauravas.
He associates the name Pandu to Pan du (as in du-deo-god.
Any body who knows Hindu mythology will tell that Pandu got his name because he looked pale/ he had skin discoloration like white patches on his skin...like Vitiligo.

seems like Higgins sounds like a sitchin.

The word Kaul in Sanskrit/Hindi means 'Well born" and is a title of Brahmans from the Kashmir area, not the Holy/Shining Ones of God.

I might be mistaken, but Godfrey Higgins has all the marks of a Pseudo-whatever-ian ™.

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#48    lightly

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 07:59 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 27 June 2010 - 05:04 PM, said:


If it is hogwash please tell me.

, ... Hog-Wash.jpg

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#49    SlimJim22

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 08:28 PM

View PostThe Spartan, on 27 June 2010 - 06:06 PM, said:

Higgins coins the term " Pandeism" as to from the Kingdom of "Pandea" as that of Pandae, the daughter of Cristna.

May i ask who is this Pandea or cristna? Any info?

and he makes the same linking to Pandu, the father of the pandavas and brother to Kuru , the father of the kauravas.
He associates the name Pandu to Pan du (as in du-deo-god.
Any body who knows Hindu mythology will tell that Pandu got his name because he looked pale/ he had skin discoloration like white patches on his skin...like Vitiligo.

seems like Higgins sounds like a sitchin.

The word Kaul in Sanskrit/Hindi means 'Well born" and is a title of Brahmans from the Kashmir area, not the Holy/Shining Ones of God.

I might be mistaken, but Godfrey Higgins has all the marks of a Pseudo-whatever-ian ™.

Appreciate your opinion. I had not come across most of this stuff so am still looking into it. I'm gonna leave Higgins for the time being and look at the first link by Gene Matlock. Once again your views on the credibility would be useful. I liked this part, tell me what you think.

The bible also states that Ishmael, son of Hagar, and his descendants lived in India. "...Ishmael breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his kin... They dwelt from Havilah (India), by Shur, which is close to Egypt, all the way to Asshur." (Genesis 25:17-18.) It is an interesting fact that the names of Isaac and Ishmael are derive from Sanskrit: (Hebrew) Ishaak = (Sanskrit) Ishakhu = "Friend of Shiva." (Hebrew) Ishmael = (Sanskrit) Ish-Mahal = "Great Shiva."

There is some other good info in that link but I would like to hear opinion on Matlock's pseudo credentials before I quote from it anymore.

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#50    Swede

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 09:24 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 27 June 2010 - 08:28 PM, said:

Appreciate your opinion. I had not come across most of this stuff so am still looking into it. I'm gonna leave Higgins for the time being and look at the first link by Gene Matlock. Once again your views on the credibility would be useful. I liked this part, tell me what you think.

The bible also states that Ishmael, son of Hagar, and his descendants lived in India. "...Ishmael breathed his last and died, and was gathered to his kin... They dwelt from Havilah (India), by Shur, which is close to Egypt, all the way to Asshur." (Genesis 25:17-18.) It is an interesting fact that the names of Isaac and Ishmael are derive from Sanskrit: (Hebrew) Ishaak = (Sanskrit) Ishakhu = "Friend of Shiva." (Hebrew) Ishmael = (Sanskrit) Ish-Mahal = "Great Shiva."

There is some other good info in that link but I would like to hear opinion on Matlock's pseudo credentials before I quote from it anymore.

Re: Gene Matlock - Pseudo would be kind! Degrees in Spanish. Proposes that the North Pole was the Garden of Eden. Page deleted from Wiki (2008, listed as pseudo-historian). Claims pre-contact connections between Hindus and Mexicans, etc. Yoiks!

http://deletionpedia..._2008_at_04:55)

http://www.viewzone.com/hinduturk.html

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#51    SlimJim22

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 10:01 PM

View PostSwede, on 27 June 2010 - 09:24 PM, said:

Re: Gene Matlock - Pseudo would be kind! Degrees in Spanish. Proposes that the North Pole was the Garden of Eden. Page deleted from Wiki (2008, listed as pseudo-historian). Claims pre-contact connections between Hindus and Mexicans, etc. Yoiks!

http://deletionpedia..._2008_at_04:55)

http://www.viewzone.com/hinduturk.html

.

I see what you mean "Names of Street Fighter II characters as evidence of memory of Atlantis" sounds a bit cuckoo. Hardly an authority on ancient religion with a degree in spanish, still to give the guy a break he puts together lingual connections and then writes fantastical books. Everyone needs to make dough and it's not to everyones tastes it doesn't mean that all the ingredients he uses could not bake a better cake, if you get my rather poor analogy.

I had noticed a great deal of phonetic lingual connections independently myself such as Asshur, Aesir, Asuras or the whole thing with the Sidhe. There are many more so can you give your opinion Swede on whether ANY connections like this have any credibility in academia or is it something strongly rejected and left to the fringe writers? I know from what others have told me that academics would not use something so simplistic but can you tell me why it is so strongly denied? Cheers

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#52    questionmark

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 10:07 PM

View PostSwede, on 27 June 2010 - 09:24 PM, said:

Re: Gene Matlock - Pseudo would be kind! Degrees in Spanish. Proposes that the North Pole was the Garden of Eden. Page deleted from Wiki (2008, listed as pseudo-historian). Claims pre-contact connections between Hindus and Mexicans, etc. Yoiks!

http://deletionpedia..._2008_at_04:55)

http://www.viewzone.com/hinduturk.html

.

nice that it was not me to identify a card holder this time...

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#53    SlimJim22

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 10:29 PM

I was looking at a map of the near east and struggling to understand a cross cultural connection between Armenia and India them being so far away from one another. However, I just read that the Oxus river once flowed into the Caspian Sea rather than the Aral. Could this provide a more efficient means of travel?

Also, anyone heard of Ur Jahuda in Bactria (Northern Afghanastan)? Could this what was meant by Abraham of Ur of the Chaldeans and not the Ur of Iraq?

http://www.afghan-ne.../old_balkh.html

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#54    Swede

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 11:23 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 27 June 2010 - 10:01 PM, said:

I see what you mean "Names of Street Fighter II characters as evidence of memory of Atlantis" sounds a bit cuckoo. Hardly an authority on ancient religion with a degree in spanish, still to give the guy a break he puts together lingual connections and then writes fantastical books. Everyone needs to make dough and it's not to everyones tastes it doesn't mean that all the ingredients he uses could not bake a better cake, if you get my rather poor analogy.

I had noticed a great deal of phonetic lingual connections independently myself such as Asshur, Aesir, Asuras or the whole thing with the Sidhe. There are many more so can you give your opinion Swede on whether ANY connections like this have any credibility in academia or is it something strongly rejected and left to the fringe writers? I know from what others have told me that academics would not use something so simplistic but can you tell me why it is so strongly denied? Cheers

Linguistics is not one of my specialties, so I don't feel fully qualified to answer your question except in rather general terms. Linguistics is a valid field of study, and one that is most complex to those not well trained in the topic. This is "problem" #1. It takes serious training and study to be even a competent linguist. Contributors such as kmt-sesh and Searcher (amongst others) can validate this point. Problem #2 lies in the rather limited range of consonant/vowel sounds within the human vocal repertoire. Setting aside some of the language forms that use such vocalizations as glottals, clicks, and whistles (a fascinating study in themselves), there is wide room for overlap in syllabic enunciations. As an example, the base utterances of infants from widely separated cultures can be surprisingly similar. Ba-ba and ma-ma are childhood Ojibwe (Algonquin language group) for father and mother. Sound familiar?

Another (major) problem involves those who would associate phonetic connections across cultural, geographic or temporal frames that are not supported by any other evidence. This is where archaeology comes in. Words do not travel by themselves.

Lastly, linguistics, as valuable as they may be, are not considered to be as "hard" a form of supporting evidence as other fields of study. The ongoing malleability of language is a factor here, as is the more precise dating that is available from other fields of research.

Then one can get into the true complexities of linguistics. Syntax, semantics, etymology, etc.

As a brief (and, again, general) summary, the application of linguistic study is a worthy pursuit, but it needs to be rigorously studied and contextually applied. This is where fringe writers would appear to be lacking.

The below may be of interest;

http://andromeda.rut...h/language.html

http://www.danshort.com/ie/

And even;

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Linguistics

Hope this is of assistance.

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#55    Swede

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Posted 27 June 2010 - 11:27 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 27 June 2010 - 10:07 PM, said:

nice that it was not me to identify a card holder this time...

Chuckle! Reckon its not fair for you to do all the heavy lifting and I finely had a few unbooked hours!

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#56    SlimJim22

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 02:44 PM

Some new information I had not come across previously, don't know what to make of it or if it has been discussed already.

Malamat places the date of a "punctual exodus," the culmination of a "durative event, toward the end of the XIXth Dynasty ...." It was then that the two dominant forces in the area, the empires of Egypt and the Hittites, collapsed, leaving a power vacuum in Palestine. According to a royal stele on the island of Elephantine "from the second (?) year of Pharaoh Sethnakht, founder of the XXth Dynasty ..., dating in absolute chronology from the first or second decade of the 12th century B.C.E. ..., the political situation in Egypt ... was marred by the enigmatic intervention of Asiatics ... who were approached and bribed by a faction of Egyptians ... who revolted against another faction ... who remained loyal to Sethnakht." Sethnakht overcame the plot and drove the Asiatics from Egypt. According to Malamat, the Papyrus Harris I also describes "the Syrian-Palestinian usurpation of Egypt" as well as the "desolate conditions" that held sway prior to Ramses III. According to the papyrus, the Asiatics were led by "someone called Irsa," and Malamat goes on to note that some scholars identify Irsa with Beya.

There is a strong resemblance between the items offered as bribes by the rebels to the Palestinians and the items described in Exodus taken by the Israelites from the Egyptians: "And it shall come to pass, that, when ye go, ye shall not go empty; but every woman shall ask of her neighbor, and of her that sojourneth in her house, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold, and raiment; and ye shall put them upon your sons, and upon your daughters; and ye shall spoil the Egyptians."

Finally, Malamat notes that "there are now a few scholars who boldly maintain that Beya/Irsu is in fact the biblical Moses ...." Thus, what had been an informed supposition on my part now rose to the level of legitimate hypothesis supported by an academic expert in the field, Johannes C. De Moor in The Rise of Yahwism: The Roots of Israelite Monotheism.

De Moor places the Exodus at the end of the 19th Dynasty, at 1190 BC, based on extensive though circumstantial evidence. This is close to the date we have already arrived at using purely chronological methods. Others place the collapse of the Hittite Empire and the fall of Ugarit to the Sea People at 1185. In de Moor's estimation, the pharaoh of the Exodus was Setnakhte, who drove Miriam, Moses, and their friends, family, and allies out of Egypt after their failure to buy help from the Canaanites in imitation of Osarsiph and the Hyksos. He further mentions the older brother of Siptah, who died before his father, as a candidate for the son of the pharaoh who fell victim to the tenth plague. In this regard he agrees with Malamat in recognizing the telescoping effect we noted earlier, though, according to J.C. de Moor, the city of Pithom (Tell el-Ratabeh) was probably built by Merneptah, who continued work on the city of Raamses (Pi-Ramesse) as well, so that the incidents described in the bible may not be so terribly compressed as they would at first appear, and the killing of the overseer would have involved the very construction at these two cities and not a later event. It was here, at Pi-Ramesse, that he suggests that Moses/Beya met Setnakhte, whom he calls Sethnakht, when he was still a prince. The latter had a house near the palace and worshipped at the temple of Sutekh/Seth/Baal, a deity earlier associated with the Hyksos whom Manetho calls "Typhon."


http://neros.lordbal...hapterThree.htm

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#57    Sir_Quack_The_Wack

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Posted 30 June 2010 - 11:50 PM

I don't know.

I don't care.

All I know is that the LORD took his people out of bondage in Egypt, and it was I Am Who I Am that sent the GREAT Prophet Moses to do this thing, with his brother Aaron and all of Jah's power in his staff.

This is in The Bible. I KNOW it happened. No amount of argument will tear that away from me and oceans of people worldwide.

If something is in a science journal or some little magazine for nerds, everyone believes it, no matter how ridiculous and if there is no proof elsewhere. Because they trust the source.

Same thing here.

Who the Hebrews were, and why there is no record of this great event is a mystery for a reason. A mystery. And it will always be a mystery. And so it should be.

"From atop these pyramids, forty centuries look down upon you." -- Napoleon Bonaparte to his soldiers before the Battle of Giza, 1798

#58    kmt_sesh

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 01:01 AM

View PostSir_Quack_The_Wack, on 30 June 2010 - 11:50 PM, said:

I don't know.

I don't care.

All I know is that the LORD took his people out of bondage in Egypt, and it was I Am Who I Am that sent the GREAT Prophet Moses to do this thing, with his brother Aaron and all of Jah's power in his staff.

This is in The Bible. I KNOW it happened. No amount of argument will tear that away from me and oceans of people worldwide.

If something is in a science journal or some little magazine for nerds, everyone believes it, no matter how ridiculous and if there is no proof elsewhere. Because they trust the source.

Same thing here.

Who the Hebrews were, and why there is no record of this great event is a mystery for a reason. A mystery. And it will always be a mystery. And so it should be.

The part I bolded is representative of the endemic problem fostered by fundamentalists of all religious breeds, as are statements such as "I don't know" and "I don't care": it is the way it is, the Bible says so, so let's not look any deeper. This might be a manifestation of devout faith, but unfortunately it's also intellectual sloth.

We were born with keen minds and are meant to exercise them. Most people of faith do not limit themselves so painfully: many among the Catholic clergy, for example, constitute some of the best-educated and most adroit historians in the world.

Those "little magazine for nerds" are for the most part based on hard science. They teach us the realities of ancient history. The Bible was never meant as a history book, nor should it be regarded as such. It's decidedly odd that if we are meant to regard the Bible as the literal word of God, then why has it been edited, revised, expanded, and redacted so extensively through the centuries? Indeed, were the average Catholic to take a hard look at much of Christianity in its earliest forms as practiced throughout the Near East, I can guarantee you he or she would have a hard time recognizing it as Catholicism.

So poke fun at science if you want, Sir_Quack_The_Wack, but the unbending truth is, science has demonstrated repeatedly over the last couple of centuries how inaccurate the Bible tends to be. That's not surprising, given the fact that the Hebraic scribes who first penned the words of the Old Testament were not viewing it as a work of history in any sense of the word we might recognize.

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#59    kmt_sesh

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 01:07 AM

I should add that the nature of my last post, in response to Sir_Quack_The_Wack, might make me seem like an atheist. I am not. I should further emphasize that Sir_Quack_The_Wack's post does not address anything of substance in my OP. I am certainly not denying the existence of the Hebrews or the importance they have had on the course of history down to modern times, nor am I belittling religion, though it might seem that way. I am merely striking the necessary balance that is required by a secular and logical approach to proper historical inquiry. :)

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#60    Sir_Quack_The_Wack

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Posted 01 July 2010 - 08:15 AM

I am not a Christian fundamentalist. I'm anything but. I do not believe the world is six thousand years old. I do not believe in a magical garden and talking snakes etc.

I do not even believe in the popular thoughts of God. I am a Pantheist with a faith in Scripture, no matter what they are based from or their intention.

This is exactly the point I was trying to make in my post. It happened all right. But not in this system, nor in this system's boundaries. With the evolution of the human mind and the current almost unnatural state of sophistication, everything has seemed to change along with it. Now what were once facts are laughed at by many, but the thing is, those things are still facts in the past. And so these things did happen in the past.

Most people are showing a very low perception of real and unreal BY this same perception bloating into something terrible. Look how everything in the world, hell, this galaxy is getting more and more hectic? So many of us are depressed and highly pessimistic because of what is there. But these things have also curiously taken place as the human society has grown more and more hectic. So while it is obvious everything is getting worse, our very lives seem to be following(or is it leading?) this path.

In a time when all it was people wrote about and recorded was wondrous things and fantastic miracles, following the whole message of this post of mine, we can see that Moses leading the Hebrews through the Red Sea is probably based in truth just as much as the earthquakes sadly making the headlines too often this past year.

Yes, I am highly eccentric. I'm probably very weird to many people. But I'M not weird, the things I am discovering are what's weird. The world's weird, amirite? :w00t:

"From atop these pyramids, forty centuries look down upon you." -- Napoleon Bonaparte to his soldiers before the Battle of Giza, 1798




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