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Hyksos, Habiru, and the Hebrews


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#16    questionmark

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 02:45 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 26 June 2010 - 02:37 PM, said:

Good point I was being a little facetious. I was referring to the various cults that go under the names of Isis or Bast but without correctly identifying how egypts' religion worked, accurate comparisons cannot be drawn. Same with druids as you infer. They were so secretive that we only know a fragment of how they operated and so the same applies. Modern renderings with ancient precepts or longings is the closest we could get these days.

I had better stop before I start trying to conecting Abraham with Brahmins with Bran and the druids.  :rolleyes:

What does the suffix 'br' mean as it is found it hebrew?

Do you mean <br> ?

That is a wrong HTML coding. Somebody messed up when making the website. It is the code for line break.

But if you want to connect Isis to a modern religion, all you have to do is go to the next Catholic community when they have a Marian Procession. That ritual was copied 1:1 from the Isis cult.

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#17    The_Spartan

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 02:52 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 26 June 2010 - 02:37 PM, said:


I had better stop before I start trying to conecting Abraham with Brahmins with Bran and the druids.  :rolleyes:


People are already doing that - connecting Abraham to Brahma, the Hindu god of creation.

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#18    questionmark

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 03:05 PM

View PostThe Spartan, on 26 June 2010 - 02:44 PM, said:

In the PBS Nova Documentary "Bible's Buried Secrets" there are a couple of theories  about the origin of the Hebrews -

  • Some scholars belive that the Hebrews were originally refugees/escaped slaves from Egpyt, who had passed through Midian and the place called YWH, the land of the Shasu, who's patron God is also named YWH. The slaves took on the theological idea of YWH and adapted it to form tgheir own religion. But the Merneptah reliefs identify the Shasu as a separate entity than the Israelites.
  • The Hebrews or the Israelites was a mixture of Cananite commoners who migrated into the area and escaped slaves from Egpyt.

Could be, in its form they are both typical theories from the "Bible is gospel" fraction. The problem is that the archeological evidence does not seem to back that.

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#19    SlimJim22

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 03:07 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 26 June 2010 - 02:45 PM, said:

Do you mean <br> ?

That is a wrong HTML coding. Somebody messed up when making the website. It is the code for line break.

But if you want to connect Isis to a modern religion, all you have to do is go to the next Catholic community when they have a Marian Procession. That ritual was copied 1:1 from the Isis cult.

Good one but there are probably hundreds if not thousands of groups taking direct or indirect influence from ancient Egypt. I don't know them by name thankfully but they are ten a penny it seems.

Hee hee no not <br> just the 'br' part of hebrew and or Abrahamn. I have read before that Ur as in Aryan, Armenia, etc comes from original but I am skeptical with priginal being a modern english word d'uh. However, 'Br' is perhaps more interesting. I found this:

BDB and Gesenius agree that the root of )BYR is )BR, from
the Assyrian root abaru, meaning “be strong”.  In Biblical Hebrew, )BR
usually means “fly” or “wing”, but in days of old, )BR in Hebrew had originally
meant “mighty”.


http://lists.ibiblio...rch/037879.html

http://lists.ibiblio...ber/036242.html

Another translation is 'crossing over' and this is related to Ivri and important to note that Abraham is said to be a descendant of Eber. Occasionaly it is said to mean 'grain' but this is all just speculation from what I ca gather as there is no archeological evidence of any OT characters.

http://www.ijs.org.a...el/default.aspx

Some crazy stuff in link below from the world of fringe mentality

http://www.meru.org/...ntisrising.html

Edited by SlimJim22, 26 June 2010 - 03:08 PM.

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#20    SlimJim22

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 03:10 PM

View PostThe Spartan, on 26 June 2010 - 02:52 PM, said:

People are already doing that - connecting Abraham to Brahma, the Hindu god of creation.


I have been since I joined UM but I didn't want to clog up this thread with links to druidism or brahminism as the egyptian aspect is more interesting and feasable to some.

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#21    The_Spartan

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 03:22 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 26 June 2010 - 03:05 PM, said:

Could be, in its form they are both typical theories from the "Bible is gospel" fraction. The problem is that the archeological evidence does not seem to back that.

haha! You are completely mistaken.


Quote

The program airs archaeologists' assertions that:[2]

    * The Bible's first books have been traced back to multiple authors writing over a span of centuries.(see Documentary hypothesis)

    * There is no evidence for the actual existence of patriarchs such as the biblical Abraham.

    * The Exodus appears to have involved just a small segment of the Jewish population rather than all Jews.

    * The Land of Canaan was not taken over by conquest - rather, the Israelites actually might have been Canaanites who migrated into the highlands and created a new identity for themselves.

    * Of the 31 sites the Bible says that Joshua conquered, few showed any signs of war. "Joshua really didn't fight the Battle of Jericho," Dever said.

    * Some events of the Israelite kingdom given in the Book of Kings is more or less accurate as history.

    * The early books of the Bible, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy, Joshua, Samuel and Kings, reached almost their present form during the Babylonian exile of the 6th century BCE.

    * The Israelite religion was not exclusively monotheistic. Before the 6th centry BCE, the early Israelites were polytheistic and worshipped Yahweh alongside his "wife," a fertility goddess named Asherah.

    * The emergence of monotheism and universality of Yahweh was a response to the tragic experience of the Babylonian exile of the Israelites in the 6th century BCE.

Most of the above assertions (95%) are contra as what is stated in the bible.

Now, would you call that typical theories from the "Bible is gospel" fraction??? :rolleyes:

see the Documentary first.

The christian fundamentalists were up in arms against the documentary.

Quote

The producers surveyed the evidence and take positions that are mainstream among archaeologists and historians, although they continue to raise objections among both Christians who believe in the literal truth of the Bible and minimalists who assert that the Bible has no historical validation.

Quote

The conservative American Family Association has issued an online petition urging Congress to cut off federal funding for PBS.[6]  "PBS is knowingly choosing to insult and attack Christianity by airing a program that declares the Bible ‘isn't true and a bunch of stories that never happened,’" signers of the petition are encouraged to declare to members of Congress.

All quotes in this post are from  - The Bible's Buried Secrets  - from PBS Nova.

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#22    SlimJim22

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 03:32 PM

Spartan, thank for you posting about the Midianites. I hadn't come across this theory and wiki has got some decent information of it. I think it definitely was a contributing factor into the mix but there could be more to it as always.

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#23    Mike D boy

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 03:39 PM

From what I studied the topic on the origin of the Hyskos, I came to suggest an older theory before the current Hebrew hypothesis: They were the ancestors of the Armenian people, whom call themselves "Hay", resided in the Iranian plateau before nomadic tribes of Indo-European speaking peoples (related to Persians and Pashtos or  Afghans) moved west and south into present-day Iraq, Turkey and Syria about 3,000 yrs. ago.

Armenian mythology spoke of a legend of a great leader by the name of "Hayk" led his wanderer tribe out of the Syrian desert into the Caucasus (where Armenia presently stands today) to founded the glory of all civilization...and additions to the Hayk story claimed the tribes went into Mesopotamia, the Levant and the Nile Delta of Egypt; and finally, the Hyksos crossed Asia Minor to settle in Greece or Italy in Europe.

But, it is clearly understood the Egyptians and Babylonians are of Semitic not Indo-Iranian origins, and the language of Hyksos is evidence of their West Semite culture. Then comes the Turanian theory of the Turkic origin of Akkadian, Sumerian and ancient Levantine peoples inhabited Assyria (Syria and Lebanon) and the Trans-Jordan (Palestine and the Sinai), therefore the Hyksos who were "Asiatic" are in fact proto-Turk people.

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#24    questionmark

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 03:48 PM

View PostThe Spartan, on 26 June 2010 - 03:22 PM, said:

haha! You are completely mistaken.




Most of the above assertions (95%) are contra as what is stated in the bible.

Now, would you call that typical theories from the "Bible is gospel" fraction??? :rolleyes:

see the Documentary first.

The christian fundamentalists were up in arms against the documentary.





All quotes in this post are from  - The Bible's Buried Secrets  - from PBS Nova.

The point I am trying to make here is not if the fundamentalists like it or not... they would not talk about escaped slaves anyway but 144,000 liberated by the Lord and biblical plagues.

Nobody disputes that there are some Egyptians remnants in Judah when the Jews (or what was to become the Jews) were released from Babylonian bondage and nobody disputes that there were small bands of escaped slaves living like nomads. The point is more that the liberated by far surpassed the numbers of those living in Judah, and while one seeks futile a cohesion among those who were there previously from ~500 BC on that cohesion exists. From that time on there is archeological evidence of large Jewish settlements that you cannot find previously (though it took a while for them to count 144,000).

If I talk about the "Bible is gospel" fraction I mean those who still use the bible as a guideline to explain the events in the middle East... which is very easy if you stem from a society with Judeo-Christian-Muslim traditions. Not about those who actually believe that the blood is the home of the soul.

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#25    The_Spartan

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 03:55 PM

Not getting off topic, but I thought , i would pop in this stuff

did you know that the Hebrew God had a 'Wife"?
Did you know that even after Judaism was established as a Monotheist religion, the Hebrews did worship his "wife"?

God's wife's name was Asherah

Quote

The Book of Jeremiah written circa 628 BC possibly refers to Asherah when it uses the title "queen of heaven" in chapters 7 and 44.[1]  For a discussion of "queen of heaven" in the Old Testament, please see Queen of heaven (Antiquity).

Quote

Figurines of Asherah are strikingly common in the archaeological record, indicating the popularity of her cult from the earliest times[13]  to the Babylonian exile. More rarely, inscriptions linking Yahweh and Asherah have been discovered: an 8th century BCE ostracon  inscribed "Berakhti etkhem l’YHVH Shomron ul’Asherato" (Hebrew: בירכתי אתכם ליהוה שומרון ולאשרתו‎) was discovered by Israeli archeologists at Quntilat 'Ajrud (Hebrew "Horvat Teman") in the course of excavations in the Sinai desert in 1975. This translates as: "I have blessed you by YHVH of Samaria and His Asherah" (or perhaps "... by YHVH our guardian and His Asherah", if "Shomron" is to be read "shomrenu"). Another inscription, from Khirbet el-Kom near Hebron, reads: "Blessed be Uriyahu by Yahweh  and by his Asherah; from his enemies he saved him!".[14]  Tilde Binger notes in her study, Asherah: Goddesses in Ugarit, Israel and the Old Testament (1997, p. 141), that there is warrant for seeing an Asherah as, variously, "a wooden-aniconic-stela or column of some kind; a living tree; or a more regular statue." A rudely carved wooden statue planted on the ground of the house was Asherah's symbol, and sometimes a clay statue without legs. Her cult images— "idols"— were found also in forests, carved on living trees, or in the form of poles beside altars that were placed at the side of some roads. Asherah poles are mentioned in the books of Exodus, Deuteronomy, Judges, the Books of Kings, the second Book of Chronicles, and the books of Isaiah, Jeremiah, and Micah. The term often appears as merely אשרה, Asherah; this is translated as "groves" in the King James Version and "poles" in the New Revised Standard Version, although no word that may be translated as "poles" appears in the text.

An interesting book on the topic is Did God have a Wife? by Syro-Palestinian archaeologist and biblical scholar William G. Dever (Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Archeology and Anthropology at the University of Arizona).

Edited by The Spartan, 26 June 2010 - 03:56 PM.

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#26    SlimJim22

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 05:08 PM

View PostThe Spartan, on 26 June 2010 - 03:55 PM, said:

Not getting off topic, but I thought , i would pop in this stuff

did you know that the Hebrew God had a 'Wife"?
Did you know that even after Judaism was established as a Monotheist religion, the Hebrews did worship his "wife"?

God's wife's name was Asherah


An interesting book on the topic is Did God have a Wife? by Syro-Palestinian archaeologist and biblical scholar William G. Dever (Professor Emeritus of Near Eastern Archeology and Anthropology at the University of Arizona).

Is that Asherah being synonymous with Ishtar and Ashteroth among other names? Gods almost always had consorts in ancient mythology and the removal of the counterpart could well have been from Persian influence during capitivity. If Asherah was cintinued to be worshipped do you think this was in the less mainstream elements of judaism, them being more mystical.  

The connection with Armenia is strong. It was in armenian that I read that Khaldi meant ram and considering the story of Abraham's sacrifice and also the astrological age of Ares this could be significant.

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#27    questionmark

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 05:16 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 26 June 2010 - 05:08 PM, said:

Is that Asherah being synonymous with Ishtar and Ashteroth among other names? Gods almost always had consorts in ancient mythology and the removal of the counterpart could well have been from Persian influence during capitivity. If Asherah was cintinued to be worshipped do you think this was in the less mainstream elements of judaism, them being more mystical.  

The connection with Armenia is strong. It was in armenian that I read that Khaldi meant ram and considering the story of Abraham's sacrifice and also the astrological age of Ares this could be significant.

Or it could have been added for a short time when they were sorting out the common denominator in all the compiled traditions.

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#28    SlimJim22

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 05:47 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 26 June 2010 - 05:16 PM, said:

Or it could have been added for a short time when they were sorting out the common denominator in all the compiled traditions.

Too true! Is there anyway of differentiating the truly ancient from the later amalgamation? It is quite amuzing that the main believer in the concept of judaism being created during Babylon is of all people Icke. Funnily enough this is what most archeology supports but obviously he has taken the finds or lack thereof and run with them in his own unique direction  :wacko: he is the one raking it in though while the true archeologists are crawling around in the dirt. How unfair?  :blush:

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 05:50 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 26 June 2010 - 05:47 PM, said:

Too true! Is there anyway of differentiating the truly ancient from the later amalgamation? It is quite amuzing that the main believer in the concept of judaism being created during Babylon is of all people Icke. Funnily enough this is what most archeology supports but obviously he has taken the finds or lack thereof and run with them in his own unique direction  :wacko: he is the one raking it in though while the true archeologists are crawling around in the dirt. How unfair?  :blush:

Well, let me say that even a blind chicken finds a grain occasionally...

I don't dig through the dirt either, but without the discoveries of those who do I'd be spreading myths too.

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#30    danielost

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Posted 26 June 2010 - 06:34 PM

abraham came from the city of ur, which is still in iraq.


isaac was born in the land of canoon near jersulam.  perhaps the alter for his sacrifice is on temple mount.


jacob moved back to the land of ur for 14 years where he married two sisters then he returned to the land of canaan.


joseph was sold as a slave into egypt.  where he becomes the ruler of egypt in all but name.


the house of jacob moves to egypt to survive the 7 years of famine.  


up to this point they were nomads.  but they had become to large a group to survive the famine.



so they could have been any one of those groups or all of them or none of them.  



but at no point would a small group of people's religion have drawn anyone's attention in egypt unless they were connected to something spectacular.


and we all know that the name of a group can change over time, via language change or how they are preceived or how they wish to be called for that matter.


the isrealites wouldnt have been percieved as a threat or major threat until they hit about 50,000 in population and knew some military tactics.  

if according to what i have seen on the history channel and what i have seen on the maps in the back of the bible.  they would have been living on the north east side of egypt on the nile delta.  defending the place from invasion.  but as their numbers got bigger, this band of refugees who wouldnt go home would start to worry the egytian people.  which is when the pharoeh decided to do what he did.

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