35 replies to this topic

[SlimJim22]

Abramelin, on 28 June 2010 - 09:02 PM, said:

You are definatively on the wrong track here.

Do not just believe the things you find on the internet.

Use your fcking brains, INVESTIGATE, SEARCH....

Check what you find, Google till you die, but don't give up, try again.

Check sites that contradict your beliefs and convictions.

THAT is the way of the Skeptic.

It's not "believers" that gave us oil, electricity, internet, telephone, movies, space travel, and so on.

Itīs those who went further than any Bible thumper was willing to go.

.

That could be a skeptic mantra. Follow all those things but I think Starlords theory holds up.

Europe was in the grip of an ice age from when. Africa was vast plains abundant in life with lakes and great forests. It seems perfectly logical that the migratory route would be west to east and indeed evidence shows that there was a vast culture in Asia, much of it dominated by a negroid people who then split off into the mongoloid branch.

Do you think these people were still rubbing sticks together for fire or had they developed a sophisticated enough culture for agriculure and colonization? It seems like a good place to start and in a way reflects the myth of Set and Osiris as the black and the red men being at war before being unified or the latter suppressed. Maybe not but pre dynastic Egypt is never easy to pin down and is more complex than I can comprehend.

I recognize there are lingual similarities of words but that this should not be treated as good evidence and still what archeology there is points to much more cross cultural interaction than is commonly accepted. If the Ta Seti or Aunu were sea faring then it makes colonization of China and Japan and Australia far more feasable.  Surely genetics would hold the answers needed to prove these claims and maybe they will be forthcoming maybe not.

[Abramelin]

SlimJim22, on 28 June 2010 - 09:38 PM, said:

That could be a skeptic mantra. Follow all those things but I think Starlords theory holds up.

Europe was in the grip of an ice age from when. Africa was vast plains abundant in life with lakes and great forests. It seems perfectly logical that the migratory route would be west to east and indeed evidence shows that there was a vast culture in Asia, much of it dominated by a negroid people who then split off into the mongoloid branch.

Do you think these people were still rubbing sticks together for fire or had they developed a sophisticated enough culture for agriculure and colonization? It seems like a good place to start and in a way reflects the myth of Set and Osiris as the black and the red men being at war before being unified or the latter suppressed. Maybe not but pre dynastic Egypt is never easy to pin down and is more complex than I can comprehend.

I recognize there are lingual similarities of words but that this should not be treated as good evidence and still what archeology there is points to much more cross cultural interaction than is commonly accepted. If the Ta Seti or Aunu were sea faring then it makes colonization of China and Japan and Australia far more feasable.  Surely genetics would hold the answers needed to prove these claims and maybe they will be forthcoming maybe not.

No, Starlord was WRONG:

Just accept he was wrong, it wonīt kill you.

Lingual similarities?? That is kidīs play, come on........

You are not a linguist, and I am not either. You are grasping at straws to prove your crazy ideas.

Jim, you are not a kid, donīt continue with this, or you will resemble the next idiot, and I know you are not.

[SlimJim22]

Abramelin, on 28 June 2010 - 09:48 PM, said:

No, Starlord was WRONG:

Just accept he was wrong, it wonīt kill you.

Lingual similarities?? That is kidīs play, come on........

You are not a linguist, and I am not either. You are grasping at straws to prove your crazy ideas.

Jim, you are not a kid, donīt continue with this, or you will resemble the next idiot, and I know you are not.

Like I said it's a starting point. Sadly the afrocentrism discredits most of the theoires but I am sure I will find something to support the basic principle of black colonization of Asia. The whole Aunu - On thing is interesting and you are correct about Denderah I think. I shall leave of the linguistics for a while... stuff gives me a headache anyway.

The geographic landscape is what I'd like to know more about. Particularly prior to 10,000bce in Asia and Africa.

[Abramelin]

Linguistics is for linguistics, and neither you or I are one of them. We both just play along, with no real knowledge of the subject at hand.

Accept that you don't know **** about the topic, and someone more knowledgable then the two of us will show up, and explain where we went wrong.

JAYLEMURPH, where the hell are you hanging out?? WE NEED YOU HERE.

Don't be grumpy, we all here try to learn, just post your view on all this bs, ok?

Edited by Abramelin, 28 June 2010 - 10:20 PM.

[cormac mac airt]

SlimJim22, on 28 June 2010 - 09:38 PM, said:

That could be a skeptic mantra. Follow all those things but I think Starlords theory holds up.

Europe was in the grip of an ice age from when. Africa was vast plains abundant in life with lakes and great forests. It seems perfectly logical that the migratory route would be west to east and indeed evidence shows that there was a vast culture in Asia, much of it dominated by a negroid people who then split off into the mongoloid branch.

Do you think these people were still rubbing sticks together for fire or had they developed a sophisticated enough culture for agriculure and colonization? It seems like a good place to start and in a way reflects the myth of Set and Osiris as the black and the red men being at war before being unified or the latter suppressed. Maybe not but pre dynastic Egypt is never easy to pin down and is more complex than I can comprehend.

I recognize there are lingual similarities of words but that this should not be treated as good evidence and still what archeology there is points to much more cross cultural interaction than is commonly accepted. If the Ta Seti or Aunu were sea faring then it makes colonization of China and Japan and Australia far more feasable.  Surely genetics would hold the answers needed to prove these claims and maybe they will be forthcoming maybe not.

Not within the timeframe StarLord posted, c. 100,000 BP. That DOES NOT make him entirely wrong, though. Based on the evidence from genetics via the Y Chromosomal and mtDNA phylogenetic trees, humans were originally believed to have (successfully) migrated OOA between 50,000 BP and 70,000 BP. Recent evidence suggests the date was closer to the latter, but definitely NOT 100,000 BP. That the original migrants would have been black at that time is really not in question, as the gene that triggers white skin shows up c. 50,000 BP. The only thing that appears to fall short is the linguistics angle of the Japanese/Ainu of, say, the last 10000 years and the African migration into Asia c. 70,000 BP. That's really quite a large stretch for a linguistics connection, IMO. If that is the only evidence, then it would fail.

cormac

[StarLord]

Abramelin,

Mate,  don't shoot the messenger.  It's not MY article, which is WHY I left links of where I found them.  Remember the Theory 103C part?  I was asking a question as whether or not anyone had come across the claim that the Anu and the Ainu were one in the same ancestor AND having to do with being in Japan before the ancient Japanese folks descended.  I'm not dead set on believing anything in any direction.  It's all about right information, right?

http://www.google.co...G=Google Search

Some of those pics look a bit like Samoan.  Not all Samoan have kinky hair.

Then I started to see if I could find any links between Ainu and the Anu...

As far as linguistics go,  are there any of the African possibilities listed that still have similar words likes these?:
http://www.ainu-muse...lish/eng14.html

Hmmm,  Here's this:

Physical Traits of the Ainu

Looking at the skeletal and cranial remains of the ancestors of the Ainu on Hokkaido, they most closely resemble the Jomon people. The Ainu of today are partially descended from Jomon, and from the Jomon-Yayoi mixture of the Emishi people.
Also on Suite101
Prehistoric Japan – the Jomon Culture
Around 10,000 B.C.E. the Jomon culture developed in Japan, which became isolated from the Ice Age land bridge to Eurasia.

The Ainu were tested for DNA and proved to be of the Y-DNA haplogroup D, which is common to the people of Tibet and the Andaman Islands. According to Tajima et al., "About one in eight Ainu men have been found to belong to Haplogroup C3, which is the most common Y-chromosome haplogroup among the indigenous populations of the Russian Far East and Mongolia. Some researchers have speculated that this minority of Haplogroup C3 carriers among the Ainu may reflect a certain degree of unidirectional genetic influence from the Nivkhs, with whom the Ainu have long-standing cultural interactions." As for the lineage of the mother, Tanaka describes mitochondrial DNA as mainly from haplogroup Y (21.6 percent) and haplogroup M7a (15.7 percent).

The Emishi rode horses in warfare and utilized guerilla tactics to surprise the enemy which proved very successful in fending off the greater numbers of Japanese Yayoi. The Japanese learned to employ Emishi tactics in warfare which eventually gave the Japanese the advantage in the Tohoku region of northeastern Japan. The Emishi had succeeded in planting themselves on the island of Hokkaido, however, and remained a distinct admixture of Jomon and Yayoi culture.

The languages of the Ainu and the Emishi are an isolate, not related to any other known language and unrelated to the Japanese language. Both the Ainu and the Emishi were described by Japanese and Chinese historians as being a hairy people with hair on their torsos, arms and with beards, making their appearance contrasted from the Japanese descendents of the Yayoi people.

Read more at Suite101: Origins of the Ainu People of Northern Japan: Were They Descended from the Ancient Jomon People? http://cultural-anth...n#ixzz0sC31uwEf

Edited by StarLord, 28 June 2010 - 11:27 PM.

[SlimJim22]

cormac mac airt, on 28 June 2010 - 10:58 PM, said:

Not within the timeframe StarLord posted, c. 100,000 BP. That DOES NOT make him entirely wrong, though. Based on the evidence from genetics via the Y Chromosomal and mtDNA phylogenetic trees, humans were originally believed to have (successfully) migrated OOA between 50,000 BP and 70,000 BP. Recent evidence suggests the date was closer to the latter, but definitely NOT 100,000 BP. That the original migrants would have been black at that time is really not in question, as the gene that triggers white skin shows up c. 50,000 BP. The only thing that appears to fall short is the linguistics angle of the Japanese/Ainu of, say, the last 10000 years and the African migration into Asia c. 70,000 BP. That's really quite a large stretch for a linguistics connection, IMO. If that is the only evidence, then it would fail.

cormac

I see what you mean Cormac, the 100,000BP date doesn't fit with what I had found either but is still quite a puzzle. I am definitely gonna have my hands full getting up to speed on certain things. I shall retire from making lingual connections but before I do here is a link to an article by Gene Matlock. I am starting to see what you guys tell me all the time and even if I see a connection I won't be mentioning it without an authoritative source in the future. Before that though lets go out with a bang.

http://www.theorionz..._and_mayans.htm

Sure it is a bit much alright it is brimming with illinformed and illconceived speculations but that is the stuff that is out there and unless one takes a moderately skeptical approach one will be entrenched in a quagmire of pointless conjecture. I have been there and am trying to drag myself out by my bootstraps.

[SlimJim22]

Hopin to make amends for my shody last link here is a decent one.

http://www.absolutea...igin_hypothesis

According to the Recent African Origin hypothesis a small group of the L3 bearers living in East AfricaEast Africa
East Africa or Eastern Africa is the easterly region of the African continent, variably defined by geography or geopolitics. In the UN scheme of geographic regions, 19 territories constitute Eastern Africa:...
migrated north east, possibly searching for food or escaping climate changes, crossing the Red SeaRed Sea
The Red Sea is a seawater inlet of the Indian Ocean, lying between Africa and Asia. The connection to the ocean is in the south through the Bab el Mandeb strait and the Gulf of Aden. In the north, there is the Sinai Peninsula, the Gulf of Aqaba, and the Gulf of Suez,...
about 70 millennia ago, and in the process going on to populate the rest of the world.

Around 50,000 years ago the world was entering the last ice age and water was trapped in the polar ice caps, so sea levels were much lower. Today at the Gate of GriefBab-el-Mandeb
The Bab-el-Mandeb meaning "Gate of Tears" in Arabic , is a strait located between Yemen on the Arabian Peninsula and Djibouti and Eritrea, north of Somalia in the Horn of Africa, and connecting the Red Sea to the Gulf of Aden...
the Red Sea is about 12 miles (20 kilometres) wide but 50,000 years ago it was much narrower and sea levels were 70 metres lower. Though the straits were never completely closed, there may have been islands in between which could be reached by simple rafts. Shell middens 125,000 years old indicate that the diet of early humans in EritreaEritrea
Eritrea , officially the State of Eritrea, is a country in the Horn of Africa. It is bordered by Sudan in the west, Ethiopia in the south, and Djibouti in the southeast. The east and northeast of the country have an extensive coastline on the Red Sea, directly across from Saudi Arabia and Yemen...
included sea food obtained by beachcombingBeachcombing
Beachcombing and Beachcomber are words with multiple, but related, meanings that have evolved over time.A beachcomber is someone who "combs" the beach, and the intertidal zone in general, looking for things of value, interest or utility....
. This has been seen as evidence that humans may have crossed the Red Sea in search of food sources on new beaches.
Some genetic evidence points to migrations out of Africa along two routes. However, other studies suggest that a single migration occurred, followed by rapid northern migration of a subset of the group. Once in West Asia, the people who remained south (or took the southern route) spread generation by generation around the coast of Arabia and Persia until they reached IndiaSouth Asian Stone Age
The South Asian Stone Age covers the Palaeolithic, Mesolithic and Neolithic periods in South Asia. In Mehrgarh, in what is today western Pakistan, the Neolithic begins ca. 7000 and lasts until 3300 BCE and the first beginnings of the Bronze Age...
. One of the groups that went north (east Asians were the second group) ventured inland and radiated to Europe, eventually displacing the Neanderthals. They also radiated to India from Central Asia. The former group headed along the southeast coast of Asia, reaching Australia between 55,000 and 30,000 years ago, with most estimates placing it about 46,000 to 41,000 years ago.

During that time, sea level was much lower and most of Maritime Southeast Asia was one land mass known as the lost continent of SundaSunda Shelf
Geologically, the Sunda Shelf is an extension of the continental shelf of Southeast Asia, covered during interglacials by the South China Sea, which isolates as islands Borneo, Sumatra Java and smaller islands. During glacial periods, the sea level falls, and great expanses of the Sunda Shelf are...
. The settlers probably continued on the coastal route southeast until they reached the series of straitStrait
A strait or straits is a narrow, navigable channel of water that connects two larger navigable bodies of water. It most commonly refers to a channel of water that lies between two land masses, but it may also refer to a navigable channel through a body of water that is otherwise not navigable, for...
s between Sunda and Sahul, the continental land mass that was made up of present-day Australia and New GuineaNew Guinea
New Guinea, located north of Australia, is the world's second largest island. It became separated from the Australian mainland when the area now known as the Torres Strait flooded after the last glacial period. The name Papua has long been associated with the island...
. The widest gaps are on the Weber Line and are at least 90 km wide, indicating that settlers had knowledge of seafaring skills. Archaic humans such as Homo erectus never reached Australia.

If these dates are correct, Australia was populated up to 10,000 years before Europe. This is possible because humans avoided the colder regions of the North favoring the warmer tropical regions to which they were adapted given their African homeland. Another piece of evidence favoring human occupation in Australia is that about 46,000 years ago, all large mammals weighing more than 100 kg suddenly became extinct. The new settlers were likely to be responsible for this extinction. Many of the animals may have been accustomed to living without predators and become docile and vulnerable to attack (as occurred later in the Americas).

While some settlers crossed into Australia, others may have continued eastwards along the coast of Sunda eventually turning northeast to ChinaChina
China is a cultural region, an ancient civilization, and, depending on perspective, a national or multinational entity extending over a large area in East Asia....
and finally reaching JapanJapan
is an island country in East Asia. Located in the Pacific Ocean, it lies to the east of the Sea of Japan, People's Republic of China, North Korea, South Korea and Russia, stretching from the Sea of Okhotsk in the north to the East China Sea and Taiwan in the south...
, leaving a trail of coastal settlements. This coastal migration leaves its trail in the mitochondrial haplogroups descended from haplogroup MHaplogroup M (mtDNA)
In human mitochondrial genetics, Haplogroup M is a human mitochondrial DNA haplogroup. An enormous haplogroup spanning all the continents, the macro-haplogroup M, like its sibling N, is a descendant of haplogroup L3....
, and in Y-chromosomeHuman Y-chromosome DNA haplogroups
In human genetics, a Human Y-chromosome DNA haplogroup is a haplogroup defined by differences in the non-recombining portions of DNA from the Y chromosome ....
haplogroup CHaplogroup C (Y-DNA)
In human genetics, Haplogroup C is a Y-chromosome haplogroup, defined by UEPs M130/RPS4Y711, M216, P184, P255, P260, which are all SNP mutations. It is a sibling clade of Haplogroup F, within the more ancient grouping of Haplogroup CF...
. Thereafter, it may have become necessary to venture inland possibly bringing modern humans into contact with archaic humans such as H. erectus. Recent genetic studies suggest that Australia and New Guinea were populated by one single migration from Asia as opposed to several waves. The land bridge connecting New Guinea and Australia became submerged approximately 8,000 years ago, thus isolating the populations of the two land masses.


http://www.absolutea...uman_migrations

So Europe is one of the last regions to be colonized by modern man. I was reading how there was ancient ochre mining in South Africa and I know of a discovery called the Red Lady of Paviland that was covered in ochre. Many years separating the two but does such a similarity show migration of culture or is this the sort of thing that would establish itself independently? Just curious really but I am assuming this skeleton could not be caucasoid because they originate circa 10,000bce, is that right? What about mongoloids? I seem to recall they evolved around 20,000bce so does that mean my dates are wrong in which case please correct me or was this Red Lady likely of negroid origin? Would appreciate any clarification on this.

[kmt_sesh]

SlimJim22, on 28 June 2010 - 09:58 PM, said:

Like I said it's a starting point. Sadly the afrocentrism discredits most of the theoires but I am sure I will find something to support the basic principle of black colonization of Asia. The whole Aunu - On thing is interesting and you are correct about Denderah I think. I shall leave of the linguistics for a while... stuff gives me a headache anyway.

The geographic landscape is what I'd like to know more about. Particularly prior to 10,000bce in Asia and Africa.

Talk about afrocentrists. I've been checking into this thread for a couple of days now, and last night I spent quite awhile searching through my own library and even...ack!...the internet. I cannot find a single, reliable academic source about the Anu or Aunu of prehistoric Egypt. Instead, I seemed to trip over website after website after website of addled afrocentric twaddle, which is as equally pointless and vapid as addled eurocentric twaddle. Too many links lead me through the door to a forum called Egyptsearch, which I understand used to be pretty decent but is now little more than a scream-fest between afrocentrists and eurocentrits. Pointless.

I can't even find where this plaque of "Tera-Neter" is on display. Usually I'm able, at the very least, to track down the museum and learn more that way. Flinders Petrie did indeed spend some time digging at Abydos, where he made important discoveries, but this glazed plaque isn't an artifact with which I'm familiar.

Petrie was also never adept at translating hieroglyphs, a shortcoming to which he readily admitted, which is why he turned to people better equipped than he when this task was necessary. Unfortunately the glyphs on this little plaque are crudely inscribed and difficult to read, but I'm almost positive the name isn't even translated correctly. The tr and nTr glyphs are correct but the one between them--the tall, narrow glyph that's slightly curved--is difficult to make out. I am not sure how the translator arrived at "Anu" with the three-pillars glyph.

Altogether I question how this little plaque has been translated. It intrigues me, however. If we could just get past the drivel spewed by afrocentrists with their silly agendas, we might make sense of it. I'll keep digging, as it were.

[cormac mac airt]

Slim,

You're finally treading on firmer ground. Congratulations!

Quote

Just curious really but I am assuming this skeleton could not be caucasoid because they originate circa 10,000bce, is that right?

This would be in error, see below:

Quote

Although precise dating is impossible, several scientists speculated on the basis of its spread and variation that the mutation arose between 20,000 and 50,000 years ago. That would be consistent with research showing that a wave of ancestral humans migrated northward and eastward out of Africa about 50,000 years ago.

Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin

Since the "Red Lady of Paviland" dates to between c.26,000 BC and c.30,000 BP, IIRC, then it would appear likely IMO that HE was Caucasian.

I believe the general timeframe for Mongoloids is before c.22,000 BP.

cormac

[kmt_sesh]

cormac mac airt, on 29 June 2010 - 10:27 PM, said:

...

Scientists Find A DNA Change That Accounts For White Skin

Since the "Red Lady of Paviland" dates to between c.26,000 BC and c.30,000 BP, IIRC, then it would appear likely IMO that HE was Caucasian.

I believe the general timeframe for Mongoloids is before c.22,000 BP.

cormac

Does this mean if I move to Africa, this mutant gene will shut off and my melanin will kick in...and I'll finally get a nice tan?

[questionmark]

kmt_sesh, on 29 June 2010 - 10:41 PM, said:

Does this mean if I move to Africa, this mutant gene will shut off and my melanin will kick in...and I'll finally get a nice tan?

If my experience helps you: I have lived in hot and arid countries most of my life (take about 10 years off...2 in the US and 8 in Germany) and I still get red like a lobster, then I peel and then I am white again... so I tend to doubt it.

[kmt_sesh]

questionmark, on 29 June 2010 - 10:49 PM, said:

If my experience helps you: I have lived in hot and arid countries most of my life (take about 10 years off...2 in the US and 8 in Germany) and I still get red like a lobster, then I peel and then I am white again... so I tend to doubt it.

Well, damn, that pretty much describes my tanning potential. So there's no hope after all.

[The_Spartan]

I don't understand!!  
Why get darker by tanning?
In Asian countries...people avoid getting in the sun if they could...because they get darker. (I do get dark if i stay out in the sun for long..but then i got sun block   )

But why this fascination towards getting darker???

[The_Spartan]

The egyptologist  Émile Clément Amélineau was the person who had first excavated at the temple at abydos.

one thing that interested me a lot was the following passage at a afro-centrist site.

Quote

“Once again we must turn to Amelineau for it was he that discovered the tomb of Osiris at Abydos . . . [and] the head of Osiris found in a jar in the necropolis of Abydos. Because of this discovery Osiris could no longer be considered a mythical hero. The magnitude of this discovery cannot be stressed enough. . . ”

--Wayne Chandler, Of Gods and Men: Egypt’s Old Kingdom, 1989

Tomb of Osiris & Osiris' head being found in a canopic jar??
Osiris was Human?

Anyone has any further info?

Edit : Searching further i found out Wayne Chandlers Book at Google books. Seems to be a Afro centrist theory book

Of Gods and Men: Egypt’s Old Kingdom- Wayne Chandler

This led me to search for books by Amelineau and got two books, but they are in french. Does any one know enough french to read through them??
the link is below

books by Emile Amelineau


and one funny thing i noticed while reading these Afro centrist websites is the similarity
between Ancient Egyptian Spoken and the Wolof Language of africa.

check that out too.

Psst. i am still a skeptic..

Edited by The Spartan, 30 June 2010 - 04:15 AM.