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Go forth and procreate


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#1    odinsgrl

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 04:04 PM

(I have posted this topic here, because of the Christian doctrine, that states, "Go forth and procreate", which I find as the number one cause of the topic about to be discussed. If any of the MODS feel that it should be moved, feel free to do so.)

My beliefs are pretty well known here, at UM. If not, just look down at my sig. Lol. Anyway, I wanted to bring up a topic, very near and dear to my, and my friends' hearts.

As we see it, the number one problem facing the world today, is overpopulation. Overpopulation has caused the plundering of natural resorces faster, and faster, each year. Starvation of families in many countries, simply because there isn't enough food to feed them all. The tearing down of beautiful lands, to make room for more people and to expand cities. The overcrowding of orphanages. So, many problems that could probably be fixed, if people would use thier head.

One of the docrines of Christian faith is, Go Forth and Procreate. And while that may have been good for people back in the day, when the Earth was sparsely populated, but today I don't think it needs to be followed as much as it once was. I recently saw a story, here in my hometown paper, where this woman had just given birth to her 11th child, and she was only 29! She told the paper, that it was "God's will" that she had all of these children, and she planned have some more! I guess "Gods Will", didn't include, letting her or her husband have any kind of job, or way to support these kids, because they didn't. And I'm not saying that I believe that lower income people shouldn't have children. Even the ones that can afford them, should tone it down as well!

I don't have kids. I don't want kids. I don't need kids. Everywhere I go, the bookstore, out to eat, even sitting in my own apartment. I see, hear, and smell them. And the parents that have these children, don't seem to care enough about them to disciple them, or spend any real time with them. Just look at the child abuse, child killings, and child abandonment! Its disgusting.

I hear, all the time- "Well, I'm a Woman, I have to have kids." or "The Church says I have to have children."  I think thats a horrible way to think. People should have children out of love. If you love the child/ren you don't want them going without, or have to work three or four jobs and never be home with them. Not because some out of date, doctrine tells them to. Or just because of thier gender.

Now, don't take this post wrong. People have kids. And that's all well and good. But to have them, in an out of control fashion (10, 11, 15!) is just reckless and selfish, in my opinion. To have 1, 2, or 3 is a good pace. And if you want more, there are TONS of beautiful, unwanted children in the world, that are just begging for a good home.

That's my two cents. What do others think on this subject?



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#2    Michelle

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 06:20 PM



I totally agree. As a matter of fact some friends and I were talking about it the other night. We came to the conclusion that all children must be "fixed" at birth. When they grow up, graduate, take parenting classes and have jobs than they can get it reversed.

Sock it to me time....


#3    Cradle of Fish

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 06:56 PM

Well I remember hearing lately that the birth rate is dropping here in Australia, because most young women these days are more interested in working and living their lives.

However, I see that and think, it cant be true, im 17 and I have 7 nieces and nephews (2/5 respectively), the oldest one is 8 and he was born when my eldest sister was 18.
Yesterday even, I was walking home from the shopping centre, and there was a girl at the park, infront of my house, who seemed to be my age who had a kid.

Sure the mature young women are getting jobs and setting up their life, but the imature ones are going out and getting drunk then waking up pregnant.
So they seem to be breeding for those who arent.
And their kids will grow up and be the same, so it creates a loop.

That creates the lower class which continues to multiply, whilst the upper and middle class dont breed as often.

I dont actually know of any cases of people having kids cos of religion, im sure it happens though, because some people are just that devout.

Personally, I dont want kids till im old enough to raisde them properly, if such a thing can be done.

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#4    Rakshasas

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 07:54 PM

  Urgh I have to agree with you on this one.I laugh at the people who seem to think because I choose to not have kids that in some way I`m being "Selfish" with my life.
If they in fact got to know me they would find out that I give alot to my godkids and am perfectly happy to live vicariously through other people`s loins.My other pet peeve is that I would love to adopt an older child but I do not have the adoption fees and because I`m common law I do not qualify.. At least not in my country.

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#5    Wild-Eyes

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Posted 13 July 2004 - 11:46 PM

I, of course, agree. I do not believe that procreation is the 'meaning' to life. Sure, at a purely biological and survivalistic level, it is - but let's face it, we are not living in that kind of a world anymore.

I love children, and I wouldn't be shamed to have one of my own. However, I'm terribly saddened by the state of the children in this world, as you've so adequately described. Heck, it's the state of the parents that make it so terrible. Parents have begun to put love as a side dish and made 'making my kid like me' their main course. If the family unit falls apart like this, society will crumble steadily.

I do not think, like so many of my peers seem to, that marriage is a commitment to have children together. I do not think that married couples need to have children. I think having a child should be based on love and acceptance of responsibility, not on obligation to some power - whether it be God, State, lineage, husband, or mother.

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#6    Wings of Selkhet

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 12:16 AM

Agreed.

It's rather an odd coincidence that I found this thread today, because just a few hours earlier today a friend of mine was telling me about a family she knows with 11 kids - 4 of whom are adopted.

Why do people find it necessary to have so many kids? I'm talking about consenting married couples, I mean. I can't speak for the crackheads and drunk teenagers who end up pregnant. Why do intelligent, consenting adults desire to have so many kids?

Well, the family I heard about today is Catholic. Religion. Gah. I never understood Catholicism and the whole belief about contraception and how it's evil.

Does anyone here listen to the radio show Loveline here in the U.S.? I think Adam Carolla has some of the best philosophies on the matter of "screwballs" going out and having kids.

I read about a clinic in California where they paid drug addicts $50 to be fixed. The clinic directors were happy because the addicts didn't get pregnant and have screwed up kids, and the addicts were happy because they had money for drugs.

If someone truly wants to care for kids out of the goodness of their own heart, then why have 5 or 6 of his/her own? There are so many children without homes that need them, and if people think it's selfish of me to not have kids, I think it's selfish of them to have their own and ignore the overpopulation crisis we're facing.  


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#7    Rakshasas

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 01:10 AM

  It makes me soo angry to hear of so many drug addicted children in the foster system or the older kids waiting to be adopted.No one seems to want them though....  

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#8    babyforrest

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 02:21 AM

I don't know that it's the belief that it is "God's will" as much as it is female hormones.  Maternal instincts tell most women that when they reach a certain age, that they must have a baby.  However, I believe that the real source to overpopulation is for another reason.  Men have hormones that tell them to make babies (women too, don't get me wrong) and ta-da!  Babies.

Probably if only the people who wanted babies had babies, then we wouldn't be in such an overpopulated mess right now.  Just remember kiddies, a quick trip to the drugstore first can save you many stinky diapers in the future!

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#9    Naveed

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 04:20 AM

I think instead of worrying about over population, we should take a lesson from lemmings.


#10    Fluffybunny

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 04:53 AM

I have been a foster parent for some years now.

I think that we have done a bit too much procreating for our own good. I have a skewed view on the matter as I tend to hear pretty horrible stories with the kids that I have had to deal with, but I think that some people should get snipped if they can't seem to control themselves.

If a person has the means to support and properly raise a large family, then they should be able to do so, unfortunately that is not always the case.

One of the mothers of a foster child we were watching had a total of 11 children, all of which were in foster care. The children were not all taken at once, she has had over 15 years of endless support(Each time a child is taken away, the mother has the legal right to lawyers, counseling, rehab, financial support...it goes on).

She would have a child and care for it for a few months, then she would end up getting arrested for one reason or another. After protective services goes into her home to collect the child while she is in jail, they find horrible conditions, drugs all over the house, signs of physical abuse... The kid gets put into foster care, the mom has 18 months of various forms of help. She would blow all of her court ordered requirements to be able to get the child back, so the child is adopted out after the 18 months. Problem is that she is already pregnant with her next child, and the cycle starts all over again...

11 kids, 10 different fathers(none of which want the kids either...) all at the ripe old age of 29.

If anyone should be forcibly fixed, she should be the first candidate...

There are just too many people having kids that don't want them, can't afford them, or know how to raise them correctly. If it were up to me I'd be putting something in the water that would make everyone sterile. Only when they have proven that they have the means to care for their children would they get the antidote...

You need a license to drive, a license to marry, a permit to build you own home for god sakes, but any yahoo can crank out kids and depend on everyone else to raise them? something is just not right there...

Too many people on both sides of the spectrum have fallen into this mentality that a full one half of the country are the enemy for having different beliefs...in a country based on freedom of expression. It is this infighting that allows the focus to be taken away from "we the people" being able to watch, and have control over government corruption and ineptitude that is running rampant in our leadership.

People should be working towards fixing problems, not creating them.

#11    Daughter of the Nine Moons

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 05:11 AM

QUOTE
11 kids, 10 different fathers(none of which want the kids either...) all at the ripe old age of 29.

If anyone should be forcibly fixed, she should be the first candidate...

There are just too many people having kids that don't want them, can't afford them, or know how to raise them correctly. If it were up to me I'd be putting something in the water that would make everyone sterile. Only when they have proven that they have the means to care for their children would they get the antidote...

You need a license to drive, a license to marry, a permit to build you own home for god sakes, but any yahoo can crank out kids and depend on everyone else to raise them? something is just not right there...


I agree with you in cases like this Fluffy...something is not right.

~
To start things off, my paternal grandmother gave birth to 16 kids, my maternal grandmother to 10. Out of my surviving aunts & uncles I now have 32 first cousins. w00t.gif

I don't think that it is religion that is causing over population, but rather several things.

Lack of education (particularly sex education)
Lack of available birth control.
Taking away a womens option to choose what she will do with her own body.



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#12    hunterkiller2001

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 05:27 AM

I believe a system should go into effect. The one in china is a perfect example.

2 people = 1 kid.

Thats it.

Had a child with your first wife, and now want another? Tough

what was that movie... AI? get a license to have a baby, 1 per couple.. ever. Kid died? Oh well.. life sucks sometimes.

i agree 110% with Odinsgrl.  I was one of the youngest people in NY ever to get fixed... I had to take a Docter to court to get it done, but it's done. Would i want a child? Sure.. if half the human race up and died. Otherwise, I'm not going to bring a life into this world only to have it live in todays society.

The world is in such a bad state, i sometimes wish for a world war, or a major natural disaster.. because the human race is choking the very earth that spawned us. The population went up by 2 billion in what? 15 years?  thats insane, and it's uncalled for.

The simple fact that we can fix almost any ailment just leads to the problem..

Yes, mass breeding, and 11 kids was needed 150 years ago when 1/3 children died before the age of 10 in the US...

But now, we have people breaking the Age record every year..

I need to stop.. before i blow up..



Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

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#13    SpunkyKnight

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 05:30 AM

Having grown up in the Belt Buckle of the deep South, it was always customary to have house, yard, barn, full of kids. My mother, was the youngest of nine children. But it wasn't so much for religious reasons or the call of nature. It was because you needed all those free hands to work the damn farm! Thats why school was (and still is) let out during the summer months. So the children could go hoe the cotten. This was the way it was in much of rural america before almost all farms became industrialized. Not industrial revolution, I know in the South it kept up the children working on the farm well into the 60's. However, raising 10 kids in an appartemtn flat is completely different than raising 10 kids on a farm. My mother grew up in the 50's on a farm. And though, "they were so poor they didn't have a pot to piss in" they always had plenty of food and acres of field to run around in. Where as in an urban setting, you have the sardine effect.
Of course now adays, this is no longer the case. And I agree with pretty much everything you said. I just wanted to put my 2 cents in.    thumbsup.gif



#14    Daughter of the Nine Moons

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 05:43 AM

QUOTE (hunterkiller2001 @ Jul 14 2004, 01:27 AM)
i agree 110% with Odinsgrl.  I was one of the youngest people in NY ever to get fixed... I had to take a Docter to court to get it done, but it's done. Would i want a child? Sure.. if half the human race up and died. Otherwise, I'm not going to bring a life into this world only to have it live in todays society.


Hunterkiller, please don't take this to sound condescending because really it isn't meant to be. I am so saddened that you feel this way, because you will probably change your mind. I did. I was terrified for a variety of reasons to become a parent. At age 30 the rabbit died. Parenthood has since been the most wonderful experience ever. Everyday you get such great surprises. These kids are our future.

Dot  

Edited by Daughter of the Nine Moons, 14 July 2004 - 05:43 AM.

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#15    hunterkiller2001

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Posted 14 July 2004 - 05:50 AM

Dot9m.. I know what you mean, where your coming from... My parents said the same thing.

But i can assure you, i have other reasons for not wanting to have a child..

Like, my firm belief I won't live past 30. Docters disagree.. but then again, most have never seen a case like mine.  My nervous condition and headaches (explained in other threads) have gradually gotten worse over the years.

While there is no medical explination for it.. I'm not going to have a child, then kick the can.

But, mostly, it's the state of the world that drove me to do that at the age of 18.

Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin, Speaking on Gun control

--‘‘We, the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts  — not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.’’ — Abraham Lincoln




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