A question for Trinitarians.

[Greatest I am]

A question for Trinitarians.

Let’s check the math on the Trinity.

Math never lies.

Is God/Trinity 100% God or 300% or 400% ?

God the Father is 100% God.

God the Holy Spirit is 100% God.

God the Son is 100% God.

Jesus is 100% Man.

All would have their individual Natures. These natures should all be equal yet scripture is clear that they are not. I E. Cursing the Holy Spirit.

The Trinity must then consist of the God the Father nature, God the Holy Spirit nature, Jesus/God Nature and Jesus/Man Nature.

Is that not four distinct Natures?

Trinity means three, should we not be calling it something else?

Monotheism is one, should Christianity take that title or attribute?

Regards

DL

[Mac E]

I've always struggles with the Trinity. I'm sure some people on the forum can educate on the origins on the Trinity. It would be interesting to find where the roots of it came from.

[Captain Morgan]

I've always struggles with the Trinity. I'm sure some people on the forum can educate on the origins on the Trinity. It would be interesting to find where the roots of it came from.

http://bibleufo.com/spirits.htm

[Jor-el]

A question for Trinitarians.

Lets check the math on the Trinity.

Math never lies.

Is God/Trinity 100% God or 300% or 400% ?

God the Father is 100% God.

God the Holy Spirit is 100% God.

God the Son is 100% God.

Jesus is 100% Man.

All would have their individual Natures. These natures should all be equal yet scripture is clear that they are not. I E. Cursing the Holy Spirit.

The Trinity must then consist of the God the Father nature, God the Holy Spirit nature, Jesus/God Nature and Jesus/Man Nature.

Is that not four distinct Natures?

Trinity means three, should we not be calling it something else?

Monotheism is one, should Christianity take that title or attribute?

Regards

DL

I've always found that the best way to answer this question (which has been asked thousands of times since I've been on this board) is in the assumption of a Trinity based on the bible itself. It doesn't say there is a Trinity but it does say that there is a Godhead, the unknowable aspect of God which lies beyond His actions or emanations. In other words, we may percieve three different emanations deriving from the same source.

Just as his different names only demonstrate different aspects of his personality.

God doesn't have form and he doesn't have a body, but he can incorporate and encarnate, without losing his divine nature.

As far back as Jesus day, there was an accepted belief in Judaism that is referred to as "The Two Powers in Heaven", which stems, scholars now admit, to ancient Ugarit.

See: What's Ugaritic Got to Do with Anything?

Edited July 12, 2010 by Jor-el

[Greatest I am]

I've always found that the best way to answer this question (which has been asked thousands of times since I've been on this board) is in the assumption of a Trinity based on the bible itself. It doesn't say there is a Trinity but it does say that there is a Godhead, the unknowable aspect of God which lies beyond His actions or emanations. In other words, we may percieve three different emanations deriving from the same source.

Just as his different names only demonstrate different aspects of his personality.

God doesn't have form and he doesn't have a body, but he can incorporate and encarnate, without losing his divine nature.

As far back as Jesus day, there was an accepted belief in Judaism that is referred to as "The Two Powers in Heaven", which stems, scholars now admit, to ancient Ugarit.

See: What's Ugaritic Got to Do with Anything?

If they are all the same personality then it is absent minded.

Matthew 24:36

[ The Day and Hour Unknown ] "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father.

He also has a self induced inferiority complex of of himself.

John 14:28

Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.

Regards

DL

[IamsSon]

Who woulda thunk it!? A being with the ability to create the universe simply by willing it, who was attentive enough to create sub-atomic particles that would then be used to build stars, planets, galaxies, humans, etc. is so different from what we are that He can be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and still be One God! How incredible.

[danielost]

there is only one god.

the holy-ghost is a representative of that god.

christ is another representative of that god.

they all have the same goal, saving your soul.

in christ sample prayer he prays to god, not anyone else.

even tho he says none gets to god except through him kind of like a body guard.

[Mac E]

http://bibleufo.com/spirits.htm

Thanks for the link Capt Morgan! That gives me some insight as to the translational aspect of where the trinity came from.

[Greatest I am]

Who woulda thunk it!? A being with the ability to create the universe simply by willing it, who was attentive enough to create sub-atomic particles that would then be used to build stars, planets, galaxies, humans, etc. is so different from what we are that He can be Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and still be One God! How incredible.

Hear say and bible say, all hear say.

If God is important to you and all you have is hear say then just remember that the great deceiver that is to deceive the whole world, has done a good job on you.

To hang your soul on just hear say is quite the risk.

Especially as in your case where you have been deceived into thinking that animals can talk and that a water walking immortal God can die.

Faith based on these as facts is foolish indeed.

Regards

DL

[Greatest I am]

there is only one god.

the holy-ghost is a representative of that god.

christ is another representative of that god.

they all have the same goal, saving your soul.

in christ sample prayer he prays to god, not anyone else.

even tho he says none gets to god except through him kind of like a body guard.

Do you pray to you?

If not then what makes you think that God would pray to himself.

*snip*

Regards

DL

Edited July 15, 2010 by Saru
Removed flame

[Greatest I am]

Thanks for the link Capt Morgan! That gives me some insight as to the translational aspect of where the trinity came from.

Egyptians like threes.

Osiris, Isis and Horus for example ;-)

In some early forms of Kabbalah, there was God the Father, Mother, Son and Daughter.

In Pythagoreanism you had the One and the Dyad (duality).

In Neo-Platonism you had the Mind, the One, and the World Soul.

One can plainly see how Trinitarianism, even before Constantine, arose primarily out of a Gentile, not a Jewish matrix.

Regards

DL

[Mac E]

Egyptians like threes.

Osiris, Isis and Horus for example ;-)

In some early forms of Kabbalah, there was God the Father, Mother, Son and Daughter.

In Pythagoreanism you had the One and the Dyad (duality).

In Neo-Platonism you had the Mind, the One, and the World Soul.

One can plainly see how Trinitarianism, even before Constantine, arose primarily out of a Gentile, not a Jewish matrix.

Regards

DL

I know there were Pagan roots to teh trinity too, but I don't know how it was incorportated into the Catholic Church.

[Greatest I am]

If God is analogous to water, ice and vapor then the Holy Ghost is vapor, Jesus is water and the Father and God of the O T is ice.

O T God deserves to have lost our love and it is no wonder that He was replaced by Jesus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fyJsXrRilM&feature=player_embedded

Or at least the Bible writers hoped that we would be forgiving enough to accept Jesus. I am not.

I do not mind Jesus so much even with his unworkable sayings as a Rabbi and fully human but if he is the O T God then I have a bullet with justice and his name written on it.

That is justice for any that would use genocide on man.

Regards

DL

[danielost]

Do you pray to you?

If not then what makes you think that God would pray to himself.

Regards

DL

thank you my point.

[danielost]

If God is analogous to water, ice and vapor then the Holy Ghost is vapor, Jesus is water and the Father and God of the O T is ice.

O T God deserves to have lost our love and it is no wonder that He was replaced by Jesus.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2fyJsXrRilM&feature=player_embedded

Or at least the Bible writers hoped that we would be forgiving enough to accept Jesus. I am not.

I do not mind Jesus so much even with his unworkable sayings as a Rabbi and fully human but if he is the O T God then I have a bullet with justice and his name written on it.

That is justice for any that would use genocide on man.

Regards

DL

god may have ordered genocide but it was never carried out. sure some towns were completely killed, but genocide is the complete destruction of a whole group of people. even here in america where mormans say the nephites were completely wiped out it doesnt count as genocide. because before christ came here nephites was a family like the jews. but after he came the nephites became the ones who believed in christ and the lamenites became those who didnt. so the nephites that were killed where the religous ones not the family.

if your talking about the flood, the bible goes to great lengths to assure us that even the cainnites were saved. even if it was only 1 girl.

[A Thinker]

What has helped me to best understand the Trinity is how the Bible even looks at marriage. We as human beings look at it differently, two separate people, two personalities, marriage is just a commitment. Yet in a Biblical context the two are to become "one flesh" it says that in Genesis 2:24 and Jesus discussing the doctrine of Divorce of how God sees it, Mark 10:8,9 "therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

In marriage God sees both as one, however, the man and woman have different roles, just like God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit, have different roles yet they are one Godhead.

If you look at the relationship between a parent and child, yes the parent has authority over the child, but the child is still human, and as the child grows you begin to see each other as co-equal with the same exact humanity. Yet the parent has a different role in the child's life. But that doesn't mean the child is less of a person than the parent, nor is the child more of a person than the parent.

Hopefully that helps!

[Greatest I am]

god may have ordered genocide but it was never carried out. sure some towns were completely killed, but genocide is the complete destruction of a whole group of people. even here in america where mormans say the nephites were completely wiped out it doesnt count as genocide. because before christ came here nephites was a family like the jews. but after he came the nephites became the ones who believed in christ and the lamenites became those who didnt. so the nephites that were killed where the religous ones not the family.

if your talking about the flood, the bible goes to great lengths to assure us that even the cainnites were saved. even if it was only 1 girl.

Ok. The murder of all peoples and animals except for a few is not genocide.

*snip*

Any God who would kill when He can cure is an immoral God. Follow Him, be as immoral and ignore me please.

*snip*

Regards

DL

Edited July 15, 2010 by Paranoid Android
No insults, please. This is a public forum, people can post what they like, within the rules

[Greatest I am]

What has helped me to best understand the Trinity is how the Bible even looks at marriage. We as human beings look at it differently, two separate people, two personalities, marriage is just a commitment. Yet in a Biblical context the two are to become "one flesh" it says that in Genesis 2:24 and Jesus discussing the doctrine of Divorce of how God sees it, Mark 10:8,9 "therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."

In marriage God sees both as one, however, the man and woman have different roles, just like God the Father, God the Son, and God the Spirit, have different roles yet they are one Godhead.

If you look at the relationship between a parent and child, yes the parent has authority over the child, but the child is still human, and as the child grows you begin to see each other as co-equal with the same exact humanity. Yet the parent has a different role in the child's life. But that doesn't mean the child is less of a person than the parent, nor is the child more of a person than the parent.

Hopefully that helps!

Not really. Show the parent becoming the child and I will be enlightened.

As to God joining me and my wife to make us one, I do not remember God pushing on my ass an guiding me in the first time we got together. Thank God for that.

Regards

DL

Edited July 14, 2010 by Greatest I am

[danielost]

Ok. The murder of all peoples and animals except for a few is not genocide.

*snip*

Any God who would kill when He can cure is an immoral God. Follow Him, be as immoral and ignore me please.

*snip*

Regards

DL

no as you said except for a few. and he purposely set out to save those few.

did you ever think that they had gone behind curring.

for instance with the cananiites. he tells abraham and isaac to leave them alone because they were not sinful enough(my wording), then when the isrealites come back he tells them to wipe them all out every man, woman, child and animal.

Edited July 15, 2010 by Paranoid Android
edited quote

[Jor-el]

Egyptians like threes.

Osiris, Isis and Horus for example ;-)

In some early forms of Kabbalah, there was God the Father, Mother, Son and Daughter.

In Pythagoreanism you had the One and the Dyad (duality).

In Neo-Platonism you had the Mind, the One, and the World Soul.

One can plainly see how Trinitarianism, even before Constantine, arose primarily out of a Gentile, not a Jewish matrix.

Regards

DL

My friend that is an incorrect statement, as has been stated quite clearly by myself and anyone who knows the history of Judaism as well as the Old Testament. Judaismshared many of its beliefs with the other cultures and nations of the Near Middle East, and through all of them we find aspects which we identify in the belief in a trinitarian god. It isn't new and it certainly isn't an invention by christianity.

The fact that we can identify a Godhead in many cultures (including that of Judaism), is not news to anyone except for those people who seem to have a problem with the belief itself.

[danielost]

Not really. Show the parent becoming the child and I will be enlightened.

As to God joining me and my wife to make us one, I do not remember God pushing on my ass an guiding me in the first time we got together. Thank God for that.

Regards

DL

one thing i forget is that he didn't tell them to kill all of the Phoenicians, you know those people who used to live in what we call today the Gaza strip.

[Greatest I am]

My friend that is an incorrect statement, as has been stated quite clearly by myself and anyone who knows the history of Judaism as well as the Old Testament. Judaismshared many of its beliefs with the other cultures and nations of the Near Middle East, and through all of them we find aspects which we identify in the belief in a trinitarian god. It isn't new and it certainly isn't an invention by christianity.

The fact that we can identify a Godhead in many cultures (including that of Judaism), is not news to anyone except for those people who seem to have a problem with the belief itself.

That came from a learned Jewish friend. If wrong then I retract of course.

It does not matter that much to me because, as far as I know, most Jews did not take their own gospels literally. I have found though that most of the Jews I know are brighter than most literalists or fundamental and do not say things they cannot back up.

Jewish customs. Who would have thought.

Regards

DL

Edited July 14, 2010 by Greatest I am

[Greatest I am]

one thing i forget is that he didn't tell them to kill all of the Phoenicians, you know those people who used to live in what we call today the Gaza strip.

Hitler was just as magnanimous. He let a few Jewish scientist live.

I thought I asked you to *snip*

Take your hateful God with you.

Regards

DL

Edited July 15, 2010 by Paranoid Android
Do not tell other members what they can and cannot do on a public forum - if there is an issue, moderators will deal with it!

[+Paranoid Android]

Greatest I am, please remember that this is a forum to share discussions WITHOUT insulting other members. First, please do not tell another member when and what they can/cannot post to you - this is the moderator's job, not yours. This is a public forum, and people can share what they like, provided they do so within the rules. Secondly, if you cannot respond to an individual without resorting to calling them fools, then don't respond (especially on this section of the boards). It may be foolish to you, but to others with a different world view than you, it is not - it would be helpful if you take a minute to refresh yourself on the rules of this Forum concerning respecting other members.

~ Paranoid Android (Forum Mod. Team)

Edited July 15, 2010 by Paranoid Android

[A Thinker]

Not really. Show the parent becoming the child and I will be enlightened.

As to God joining me and my wife to make us one, I do not remember God pushing on my ass an guiding me in the first time we got together. Thank God for that.

Regards

DL

Well if any parents have had teenagers they will know when they have acted on their kids levels. I know my own parents have made the stupid mistake. haha And if you do think about it, there are some families where sadly, the child has to become the parent because the parent is not capable of their role. Whether the child is young and their parent is either working a lot, or the parent is mentally unstable due to addictions or from a sad fate of genes. Or whether the child is an adult and their parent has become senile due to old age, then the roles switch do they not? Instead of a parent changing their child's diapers now the child is changing their parent's diapers. Or sadly, the child abandons their parents by putting them in a home.

Honestly I don't understand your defense by using you and your wife as an example. Would you not say your wife is equal to you? Or do you see her as less or superior than you in your relationship? If you guys are in a healthy relationship, then you both know you have to work together to make your marriage work. You two are co-equal with one another. One isn't greater and one isn't less, but you two do have different roles.

If you think about it, there are things (which I cannot name since I don't know you two) that your wife is more capable of handling than you are capable of doing, and it goes vice versa. You could be better at something than she is, yet in another instance she is better at something than you are. For people that have gone through marriage counseling they know, that what you are taught in it, is to take on a responsible role as a husband or as a wife. Something to work on within your marriage, but the only way to fix your marriage is by working on yourself because again, you are two separate people, yet you are one. Think about tradition, now some people don't do this anymore, but it is still pretty common, than when a couple marries the woman takes the man's name. This is a symbolic of showing you are now one by the wife taking on the husband's name (or vice versa).

I hope that helps a little more, I appreciate your honesty and questions. The idea of the Trinity is extremely hard to understand, just like the idea of God's character is as well. The way I have found of any capability to understanding it is through the roles that God has put in place in humanity.

I hope I was able to enlighten you today! Thanks!