Sign In
Register
Help
Board Index
Hi Sam,
Is there reason to support the existance of ghosts
Open debate for everyone!
Rate Topic:
#31
- Ectoplasmic Residue
-
- Group: Member
- Posts: 249
- Joined: 19-October 03
-
But you told me to 'paint the town red'. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted 04 August 2004 - 07:32 PM
| QUOTE |
| em, why is this useless? might be for you but isn't to me or to my partner who as i explained before was a non beleiver as was his freind until he expereinced this unexplainable occurance. it has helped him to realise that people like ourselves, that do accept that there is more to death then just rotting away in a coffin, are not just a bunch of loonie toons |
As I explained before, anecdotal evidence is unreliable and all to often biased.
Your partners friend may well be the most honest person in the world and may 100% believe in what he saw but that DOESNT make it real.
And for your partner to simply change his beliefs on someone elses hear say is almost laughable..... are you sure he was skeptical to begin??
| QUOTE |
| i'm not even trying to proof what they saw was paranormal but there is no other explaination for what his work colleague saw. besides its well known that the castle they work is haunted, and not just to the locals. but what his freind saw was not the usual ghost that is said to haunt the castle but another unknown spirit which i can't wait to do some research on and see if i can come up with an explaination as to why it was seen where it was. |
Why is there no other explaination for what he saw?? What other explainations have you even considered for that matter?? And the castle where they work is allegedly 'haunted' since there is still NO PROOF that ghosts exist at all.
Teddy.
Avatar designed by 'thisfallendrummer' modified by 'UniversalAbsurdity'
Top
MultiQuote
#32
- Ectoplasmic Residue
-
- Group: Member
- Posts: 249
- Joined: 19-October 03
-
But you told me to 'paint the town red'. . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Posted 04 August 2004 - 08:13 PM
Spectral,
| QUOTE |
| Hammy's Teddy claimed earlier that science wasn't perfect but it's the best we've got, but by the same token anecdotal evidence, while not being perfect is often the best that we have during a spontaneous encounter and far from being useless anecdotal evidence, gathered over time can be a good indicator that something is going on, so to dismiss it alltogether is unwise. |
I didnt say it was entirely usless, i said it was useless as proof, which is not the same thing.
It may well indicate that something is going on, but 'something going on' hardly justifies a belief in ghosts. That 'something' which includes visual experiences may very well be caused by something more mundane like infra sound or EMF, both of which have been proven to cause the same
| QUOTE |
| I also have trouble with the accusation that people want to believe as a form of comfort and that's the only reason. Taking into account the amount of formerly skeptical individuals who have had there world veiw changed by such encounters, plus those who wish fervently for a more mundane explanation for the events they are living through which cause fear/distress and disruption, the above statement can only be of the flimsiest generalisation. To turn it on it's head lets speculate that most non believers choose not to believe because secretely ghosts may (or may not) indicate the existence of an afterlife and these individuals are so terrified of what awaits them on the other side due to their wicked acts on earth that it suits them to dismiss such things by any means and carry on with their selfish, nasty ways. Yes it's a pretty simplistic and ridiculous dismissal not to mention insulting to the intelligence of the skeptic involved. Such statements are a knee jerk reaction to the question of belief/non belief and serve no real purpose. |
I have never stated that comfort was the 'only' reason, though sadly it is a factor whether you like it or not.
Many people who believe they have had a visit from a deceased loved one do in fact draw comfort from it.
The see it as a way of letting them know they are ok.
Personally I see that as a way of avoiding dealing with the reality of death as the final ending.
Obviously, Not all claimed sightings or experiences will have this result and many people are left traumatised by their experiences but again this in itself is NOT proof of ghosts/spirits or any kind of afterlife.
| QUOTE |
| As to the question of mediums and cold reading, look up Pro Archie Roy and Trish Robertsons investigation of medium Gordon Smith which strongly indicates that cold reading cannot be taken into account at all times. This does not prove he is in contact with the dead of course but is further evidence for the existence of some form of ESP, the one thing which I'll admit to believing in 100%. |
i dont know where you get your logic from but even if Roy and Robinson are right that cold reading cannot always be taken into account, it hardly means that ESP is any more likely the cause than perhaps a good guess.
One thing we have to remember is that as much as mediums may get things wrong, due to the law of averages there will be times when they get it right.
Derron Brown, Mark Edwards (no relation to John) and others have demonstrated many times that they can replicate what mediums do, without any psychic powers.
When dealing with ESP its comes to down a single thing, Either people can read other people's minds, or they can't. Science has more than adequately demonstrated that they can't. That's the end of the story. And being a holist instead of a reductionist, being related to psychics, or reading or hearing about weird things that happen to people, does not change this simple scientific fact.
Jim Holt in the New York Times (Circa April 2004) offers this calulation which you may find interesting.
"Have you ever had a premonition? Did you once have, say, a passing thought about an uncle, only to receive a phone call five minutes later informing you that the beloved relative had suddenly dropped dead? If so, this probably struck you as eerie. You might have vaguely believed it was ESP. Was it? Let's see.
Suppose you know of 10 people who die each year. Furthermore, suppose you think of each of them once annually. There are 105,120 five-minute intervals in a year. A simple probability calculation shows that there is a 10 in 105,120 likelihood that you will, as a matter of chance, have a thought about one of these people in the five minutes before you hear of his death. Multiply this likelihood by the population of the U.S. (about a quarter of a billion people) and you find that roughly 25,000 people each year--about 70 a day -- will have a "psychic" experience of this sort. In fact, it's just pure coincidence."
Teddy.
This post has been edited by Hammys Teddy: 04 August 2004 - 08:14 PM
Avatar designed by 'thisfallendrummer' modified by 'UniversalAbsurdity'
#33
- Remote Viewer
-
- Group: Member
- Posts: 501
- Joined: 20-July 04
-
When you see the light at the end of the tunnel you're about to be hit by a train!!!
Posted 04 August 2004 - 08:34 PM
I for one am leaning toward believing that ghosts do exist. Over the years there has been way to many sightings, pictures, unexplained noises and convincing stories
that it's hard not to believe.
Attached File(s)
-
do_u_believe.gif (0bytes)
Number of downloads: 1
Angels offer ‘unconditional love’ – they set no rules, no standards to be fulfilled. Angels are here for us this instant, loving and guiding, giving us the support we need to move onwards and upwards towards spiritual enlightenment.
Margaret Neylon
Margaret Neylon
#34
- Alien Embryo
-
- Group: Member
- Posts: 89
- Joined: 10-April 04
- Gender:Female
- Location:in between worcestershire and birmingham
-
ooooooooohhhhh, that hurt!!!!!
Posted 05 August 2004 - 10:11 AM
| QUOTE (Hammys Teddy @ Aug 4 2004, 08:32 PM) | ||||
Hi Sam,
As I explained before, anecdotal evidence is unreliable and all to often biased. Your partners friend may well be the most honest person in the world and may 100% believe in what he saw but that DOESNT make it real. And for your partner to simply change his beliefs on someone elses hear say is almost laughable..... are you sure he was skeptical to begin??
Why is there no other explaination for what he saw?? What other explainations have you even considered for that matter?? And the castle where they work is allegedly 'haunted' since there is still NO PROOF that ghosts exist at all. Teddy. |
do you know what love i can't be bothered with explaining things to you, its obvious you only come on here to belittle people, so you carry on. i'm not interested.
SAVE WATER, DRINK BEER INSTEAD!!!!
#35
- Ectoplasmic Residue
-
- Group: Member
- Posts: 185
- Joined: 15-March 04
- Location:Beyond help.
-
Bloody typical!
Posted 05 August 2004 - 02:08 PM
Teddy.[/QUOTE]
| QUOTE |
| I didnt say it was entirely usless, i said it was useless as proof, which is not the same thing. It may well indicate that something is going on, but 'something going on' hardly justifies a belief in ghosts. That 'something' which includes visual experiences may very well be caused by something more mundane like infra sound or EMF, both of which have been proven to cause the same |
And I never offered it as proof, I offered it as indicative of something to be looked at not dismissed out of hand. The effects that Infra sound and EMF have been proven to cause are weak at best and nowhere near as significant as many experiences reported and even taking this statement as fact could well indicate that this is the medium through which a paranormal reality operates, so this proof is mere speculation masquerading as case solved. It would seem the more rigorous standard skeptics demand for claims of a paranormal nature should be working both ways.
| QUOTE |
| I have never stated that comfort was the 'only' reason, though sadly it is a factor whether you like it or not. Many people who believe they have had a visit from a deceased loved one do in fact draw comfort from it. |
And I never claimed skepiticism was in any way influenced by wanting to believe in a particular world veiw, although sadly that too can be a factor whether you like it or not.
| QUOTE |
| The see it as a way of letting them know they are ok. Personally I see that as a way of avoiding dealing with the reality of death as the final ending. |
Is that such a bad thing if that's their way to come to terms with the finality of death then so be it, and who takes it upon themselves to tell people how they should react or make sense of a personal tragedy, not me would you?
| QUOTE |
| i dont know where you get your logic from but even if Roy and Robinson are right that cold reading cannot always be taken into account, it hardly means that ESP is any more likely the cause than perhaps a good guess. One thing we have to remember is that as much as mediums may get things wrong, due to the law of averages there will be times when they get it right. Derron Brown, Mark Edwards (no relation to John) and others have demonstrated many times that they can replicate what mediums do, without any psychic powers. |
Hmm, the logic being that if cold reading has been satisfactorily eliminated then either the persons claims of taliking to spirits are true or the information has been gleaned by some form of ESP, good guess work hardly brings about hits well above chance, that's grasping at straws and hardly scientific. Derren Brown etc use recognised methods such as directing the individual, hypnosis and pre selection of the test subject, all of which have been eliminated during investigations of the above, even bringing in magicians to oversee tests to ensure these tricks cannot be used. There are quite a few members of the magic circle who testify to the reality of paranormal phenomona BTW.
| QUOTE |
| When dealing with ESP its comes to down a single thing, Either people can read other people's minds, or they can't. Science has more than adequately demonstrated that they can't. That's the end of the story. And being a holist instead of a reductionist, being related to psychics, or reading or hearing about weird things that happen to people, does not change this simple scientific fact. Jim Holt in the New York Times (Circa April 2004) offers this calulation which you may find interesting. "Have you ever had a premonition? Did you once have, say, a passing thought about an uncle, only to receive a phone call five minutes later informing you that the beloved relative had suddenly dropped dead? If so, this probably struck you as eerie. You might have vaguely believed it was ESP. Was it? Let's see. Suppose you know of 10 people who die each year. Furthermore, suppose you think of each of them once annually. There are 105,120 five-minute intervals in a year. A simple probability calculation shows that there is a 10 in 105,120 likelihood that you will, as a matter of chance, have a thought about one of these people in the five minutes before you hear of his death. Multiply this likelihood by the population of the U.S. (about a quarter of a billion people) and you find that roughly 25,000 people each year--about 70 a day -- will have a "psychic" experience of this sort. In fact, it's just pure coincidence." |
Good now we're getting somewhere, the possibilty of ESP stands at 50/50, unfortunately science has failed to prove, adequately or otherwise, that it doesn't exist, merely offered alternatives, such as the above article you offered, again see Winston Wu's Debunking Common Skeptical Arguments as to the amount of rigorous testing done that has come out favourably on the side of ESP.
This post has been edited by spectral: 05 August 2004 - 02:11 PM
#36
- Psychic Spy
-
- Group: Member
- Posts: 1,800
- Joined: 12-September 03
- Gender:Female
- Location:UK
-
"When Good is hungry, it seeks food, even in dark caves, and when it thirsts, it drinks even of dead waters"
Posted 05 August 2004 - 07:55 PM
| QUOTE (Hammys Teddy @ Aug 3 2004, 03:18 PM) |
You are quite right, I DONT believe in ghosts but Button does  Teddy. xxx |
Awwwwwwwwwww.............................
How cute is that????????????
Hammy x x x
http:///www.jeboavatars.com/images/avatars/315649150065Hamster%202.jpg
#38
- Alien Embryo
-
- Group: Member
- Posts: 31
- Joined: 17-June 04
Posted 05 August 2004 - 10:48 PM
I do not believe that ghost exist, As right now there's not scientific proof that they actually exist...But as many people says, But
"there's also no proof that they dont".... Well, ofcourse there is proof ...thats why scientist have done experiments about it and they have
never found anything...
-I wonder why most of the people who claim to have seen a ghost ...Has always seen them at night time or when it's really dark, Is it because they were not able to identify that the moving shodow was being cause by an outside tree which was being move by the wind,,, Or since they realy wanna think that ghost actually exist and they see some rare and immediately they call that a ghost, with out even checking.
-People who seen ghost before, Have you ever seen one at a Mall or a restaurant? or is it that they're only in Old building.
"there's also no proof that they dont".... Well, ofcourse there is proof ...thats why scientist have done experiments about it and they have
never found anything...
-I wonder why most of the people who claim to have seen a ghost ...Has always seen them at night time or when it's really dark, Is it because they were not able to identify that the moving shodow was being cause by an outside tree which was being move by the wind,,, Or since they realy wanna think that ghost actually exist and they see some rare and immediately they call that a ghost, with out even checking.
-People who seen ghost before, Have you ever seen one at a Mall or a restaurant? or is it that they're only in Old building.
#39
- Alien Abducter
-
- Group: Member
- Posts: 4,663
- Joined: 27-November 03
-
"Truth will first be ridiculed, then violently opposed, and finally accepted as self-evident" A. Schopenhauer 1788-1860
Posted 06 August 2004 - 04:02 AM
Yes, there are ghosts. I didn't believe in ghosts until I saw the interaction they have with the environment and of course the smells that occur. My husband and I both had experiences with ghosts and the hotel we stayed in was haunted. There were sightings that the hotel staff talked about openly. So there is no guessing for me anymore. 
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation"
Henry David Thoreau...
Henry David Thoreau...
#40
- Ectoplasmic Residue
-
- Group: Member
- Posts: 225
- Joined: 04-May 04
- Location:Illinois
-
Let us not look behind us in anger or forward in fear but around us in awareness.
Posted 06 August 2004 - 11:33 PM
| QUOTE (ruffgsr @ Aug 5 2004, 06:48 PM) |
| -I wonder why most of the people who claim to have seen a ghost ...Has always seen them at night time or when it's really dark, Is it because they were not able to identify that the moving shodow was being cause by an outside tree which was being move by the wind,,, Or since they realy wanna think that ghost actually exist and they see some rare and immediately they call that a ghost, with out even checking. -People who seen ghost before, Have you ever seen one at a Mall or a restaurant? or is it that they're only in Old building. |
What makes you think it's only at night? That seems to be the most active time, by far, but I've seen plenty of things that I'd rather forget DURING THE DAY. Also, it is possible that these things prefer darkness. Or, it's possible that if they spend more of their time being observed in more well-lit areas during the day:1) people may be less afraid, thereby giving off less energy for them to feed off of
or
2) more people might be believed about their experiences if they couldn't be discounted as easily as being just shadows in the dark, imagination, what-have-you, thereby being more likely to seek help in ridding their home of the nasty things. They wouldn't want THAT, would they?
Also, I like the way you just assume that everyone who claims to have had an encounter is just automatically someone who WANTS to think that they exist. You obviously don't understand the difference between an EXPERIENCE and a WANT. It's for sure that they DON'T HAVE TO go hand-in-hand! I have NEVER WANTED to experience what I have. As far as being only in old buildings....no, and they don't even have to be in places where people have died. They can probably go where they want to, just like the living. As far as being in malls.....maybe someone out there has seen one at a mall, or maybe they get more enjoyment (energy) from scaring someone alone, or in a smaller group of people?
It's easy for you to assume something doesn't exist because you've been lucky enough to not encounter it (I assume you haven't). I won't even touch the whole scientific arena on this with you, as I already have with Hammy's Teddy (and at least he argues his point). I will, however, wish for you an experience like mine in your near future.....it would then be interesting to hear if your opinion has changed. You'll probably pee your pants, though!
We can't drive 55...... 
[IMG]
[IMG]
#41
- Psychic Spy
-
- Group: Member
- Posts: 1,149
- Joined: 23-June 04
- Location:Somewhere under the rainbow<<<Michigan
-
She don't blush 'cause she's so damned free
When she makin' love it's like surgery
-Prince, 'I Love U In Me'
Posted 06 August 2004 - 11:41 PM
I am no one to say that ghosts don't exist, for my experiences have told me different. I have only been visited by "nice" ghosts, like my mother. I was sad, thinking about her, after her death and this ceramic tea cup music box starting playing. The song it plays is "I just called to say I love you". Thanks mom
Yellow Smiley offers me X
Like he's drinkin’ 7-Up
I would rather drink 6 razor blades
Razor blades from a paper cup
He can't understand, I say 2 tough
It's just that I've seen the future and, boy, it's rough
-Prince, 'The Future'
Like he's drinkin’ 7-Up
I would rather drink 6 razor blades
Razor blades from a paper cup
He can't understand, I say 2 tough
It's just that I've seen the future and, boy, it's rough
-Prince, 'The Future'
#42
- Alien Embryo
-
- Group: Member
- Posts: 17
- Joined: 06-August 04
Posted 06 August 2004 - 11:57 PM
I have a few friends who has the Third Eye...they can see spirits everwhere. To them, they dont go around telling people ( as in "hey buddy! I can see spirits man! There's one standing next to you".....)what they see or experienced( but sharing their encounter) because they respect the spiritual world.....and for us who cant see them, it doesnt mean they dont exist............Just my thots.
#43
- Alien Abducter
-
- Group: Member
- Posts: 4,663
- Joined: 27-November 03
-
"Truth will first be ridiculed, then violently opposed, and finally accepted as self-evident" A. Schopenhauer 1788-1860
Posted 07 August 2004 - 02:24 AM
What do these spirits look like and what do they communicate to your friends?
"The mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation"
Henry David Thoreau...
Henry David Thoreau...
#44
- Ectoplasmic Residue
-
- Group: Member
- Posts: 225
- Joined: 04-May 04
- Location:Illinois
-
Let us not look behind us in anger or forward in fear but around us in awareness.
Posted 07 August 2004 - 02:46 AM
| QUOTE (Me_Again @ Aug 6 2004, 07:41 PM) |
| I am no one to say that ghosts don't exist, for my experiences have told me different. I have only been visited by "nice" ghosts, like my mother. I was sad, thinking about her, after her death and this ceramic tea cup music box starting playing. The song it plays is "I just called to say I love you". Thanks mom |
Thank you for sharing that, and I am so glad to hear you have only experienced the "nice" ghosts, the wanted kind of visits. I am very sorry to hear about your mother, but having the "gift", or "sensitivity", (as some people call it) does feel more like a gift when you can pick up on a loved one being nearby. It feels more like a curse when it's of another nature. I don't experience those obvious "visits" from my mother as often as I'd like, but it's priceless when it does happen. None of my siblings have ever had a visit (that they know of?).
Out of curiosity, do you have brothers or sisters? If so, have they ever told you of any visits? Or are you the only child in your family able to do this? Has your mother been gone for long?
We can't drive 55...... [IMG]
[IMG]
#45
- Alien Embryo
-
- Group: Member
- Posts: 17
- Joined: 06-August 04
Posted 07 August 2004 - 07:21 AM
| QUOTE (Babs @ Aug 7 2004, 03:24 AM) |
| What do these spirits look like and what do they communicate to your friends? |
According to her, they are just like any humans...some are normal looking, some are disfigured, some are adults, some are children. They dont "say" anything per se. She has lived with afew. Some just go about doing their things, some just stares and some can be irriatating meaning, they go around, disturbing eg pushing, turning on tv etc. For her, she is so used to it...even if she sees one next to ppl, she will just let it be.