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Should Prostitution be legal in the U.S.


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#1    saucy

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 09:43 PM

I had a request that this be made, so here it is.  The debate is should prostitution be made legal in the U.S.  Hunterkiller2001 says yes it should and odinsgrl says no.  The both of you have one introduction post, followed by four body posts and a rebuttal.  Good luck!


#2    hunterkiller2001

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Posted 15 July 2004 - 10:43 PM

Which side am i on? FOR it? WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOT  /hugs to odinsgrl..   this should be interesting..

Opening statement:

Adultery is one of the leading causes of divorce in the united states. And surpisingly enough, Sex is one of the most common reason for marriage in the US... more on this later.  

The days of the dirty disease ridden postitute are over.  With proper protection, and regular medical check ups, Nevada has had legal prostitution for years.

Laws keep people safe, regardless if it refers to the speed limit, or legal prositiution.

The fact of the matter is, that people have urges. Some people are just to ugly to get some after a night in the bar. Some people don't want the "baggage" attached to the above.

If a woman wants to sell her body, there should be no one to stop her.  This is america after all.. The land of the free.. and the home of the laid. whistling2.gif

And here i am basing this on women.. Men have this right too.. Hell,  this is THE oldest profession in the world.  

Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin, Speaking on Gun control

--‘‘We, the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts  — not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.’’ — Abraham Lincoln

#3    odinsgrl

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 02:11 AM

I'm here! I'm here!....... Okay

Opening statement:

Prositution is indeed the oldest profession. Since the time of the first cilvilizations, prostitues have been in business. There have even been deities, established for the prostitues, and shrines where they could pray.

But the world isn't what it once was. Diseases, drugs, and crime now seem to follow, whenever Prostitution is established.

Most prostitutes are women, let's face it. And all but a tiny fraction of these women, are not in this business, because they like sex.The social ineaquality of women in the workplace, forces these women to the streets. Most have children to take care of, and with the social programs in this country being cut, women are forced to spend almost 75% of thier paycheck directly to child care. And even then, most workplaces will not afford them the hours they can work, and also take care of thier children.

Alot of these women have been forced to the streets, not because its a fabulous life, but because they have been "turned out" by the men in thier life. Sexual abuse from childhood, is astoudingly high in prostitutes. Its less, a way of life that is chosen, than one that is forced apon these women.



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#4    hunterkiller2001

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 02:40 AM

Ahh, quite right.. Street prostitution is nasty.. But if the rest of the country follows nevada's lead we'll have much better enviornments in which to do our.. business.

As i said, The only way it could become legal is if we follow nevada's lead..  Businesses, running under laws.

No drugs
Medical check ups twice a week
Security
etc.

With women (men too) being able to get a job at a brothel.. it could cut the unemployment rate drastically.

I know, why in the world would anyone want to sell thier body?! Think about it..

$100-200 for a hour or 2..  thats some serious income right there. Thats the number one reason "legal" prostitutes do what they do.  Odinsgrl is also correct, A lot of women love sex.

As to the women that were thrown to the streets by thier guys, or beat (or worse   sad.gif  ) as children..  if prostitution was legal.. done under legit businesses, these women could quickly bounce back, and make a lot of money... to put themselves through school, or whatever.

When a lot of people think "prostitute" they think all sorts of other nasty words that i won't repeat here..
This is not what the idea of a "legal" prostitute should be.  Think a woman with a house, kids.. maybe a husband.. a car.. a good life by most standards.

These women who currently work in nevada make out very well.. large houses, expensive cars..  thier set.

Never think of a "legal" dirty, NY hooker.. because thats not how it'd be.

Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin, Speaking on Gun control

--‘‘We, the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts  — not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.’’ — Abraham Lincoln

#5    odinsgrl

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 02:59 PM

The legalization of prostitution, while indeed offering the promise of a "legitimate" career, would still breed the same problems they always have had.


Nevada is one case in point, where the legalization of prositution has worked out, for the good of most of the women in the business. But over such a small area, that is to be expected. I do not believe, the country as a whole would not accept the legalization of prositution as easily as just one state did. I see riots, religious and moral protests. These women who now work in "secret", would be forced into the spotlight, so to speak. It would be leagl, but in this country, even something as simple and legal as being an Exotic Dancer, is still looked apon as, "undesirable". How would people look apon those in the Prostitution business? If a woman, or even a man, becomes an Adult Movie actor/actress, they are still looked at as trash, and that is a legal profession. Certain career paths, would not be open to them, if they "leagally" had a job as a prositute, it would still be consitered "bad".

And yes, alot of women do like sex. And if the job of a prostitute, was to sleep with Brad Pitt, or Ashton Kutcher, every night- SIGN ME UP! But its not. Most of the men that frequent prositutes are there because most women will not have them. If its either thier looks, or what they like in bed. Many of these men like violence, or other degrading acts to be performed, and they know full well they cannot get the pleasure they want from a "normal" woman, so they pay someone, to get beat by them, or sometimes, even worse.





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#6    hunterkiller2001

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 05:25 PM

The thing is, with legal prostitution, also comes rules and regulations. Theres a hughe list of "No-no's" that the women in Nevada can't do.. and don't.

so forget about the degrading acts..

And there will always be fetishes like bondage, and other forms BDSM, but first off a LOT of women like this.. and so do a lot of men.

Don't forget the fact that what the "customer" wants is up to the person providing services.  
Want bondage? go somewhere where the women provide it.
Want domination? go somewhere specialized in that.
Want to Learn the Karma Sutra? (all should.. tis great)  you can find someone willing to teach you.

As far as the "looked upon badly" argument.. It's no longer a relevent point.

Jennifer Aniston pole danced years ago.. posed in playboy recently..
Do i think she's "bad"..   whistling2.gif  Did people stop watching her movies?
Would people NOT go to a certain law firm if Jenna Jameson worked there?
Yes, some wouldn't.. but you know what? Business would be booming for them.

Do people hate Tera Patrick? Sylvia saint? Asia Carrera? Nici Sterling? Briana banks? No.. a lot of people don't even know who they are...

Not to mention the men in adult movies..

Women who work as strippers in college go on to work in law firms, in political offices.. anything they can get into.

Your forgetting.. the amount of income, and jobs this would create..
Not just the women themselves.. but Security, docters, Secretarys.. drivers... the list goes on and on..

Yes, this would bring the women who hook on the streets to light.. but is that a bad thing?  Would you rather men go to these women.. spreading disease, being violent.. doing drugs?

They are the people frequented by "sleezebag" men..

QUOTE
And if the job of a prostitute, was to sleep with Brad Pitt, or Ashton Kutcher, every night- SIGN ME UP!


Would you accept the position if the guy looked like a 22 year old Brad Pitt?  w00t.gif

back to the debate..

It's not ugly men, or men who can't please a woman who would be the primary customers.. It'd be everyone...

Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin, Speaking on Gun control

--‘‘We, the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts  — not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.’’ — Abraham Lincoln

#7    odinsgrl

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Posted 16 July 2004 - 07:55 PM

QUOTE
It's not ugly men, or men who can't please a woman who would be the primary customers.. It'd be everyone...


If prostitution were to be legalized in the U.S., I don't think "everyone", will be rushing out to get thier first leagal prostitute. I know I wouldn't. But that's just it, I'm not a man.

Okay, now I'm going to get a little gender biased on you right now. Because lets face it, almost all of the prostitutes in this country are, women frequented by men. Men, by nature are sexual almost all of the time. Lets face it, when most men meet a woman for the first time, the first thing that pops into thier head is, "Would I sleep with her?" I'm not saying all men do this, but the majority of the ones I've come in contact with, do. So, if we leagalized prositution, that would be more of a benifit for men, in general. Yes, women would get a benifit out of it as well, if they're the prostitute. Right now, while prostitution is illeagal, a lot of men will not go to one, based on the fact that they may get caught and arrested, thereby having to explain to thier significant other, why they were arrested. Now, lets just say, it does get leagalized. Would it make your signifanct other feel any better, that "Its Leagal!", and you went to a prostitue. I sure as heck wouldn't.

Plus, a lot of young men, I would imagine, would most likely get thier first sexual experiance with a prostitute, would it be legal. After all, today's teenagers see, "being a man", equated with "getting laid," and hopefully, the young women today are not putting out, just so a guy can feel manly. How would that transfer to thier future interactions with women? If young men, grow up on prostitutes, when they interact with, and maybe date, women who are not in the business, will they have unrealiatic expectations from thier girlfriends? I believe they would. I can hear the conversation now-

"You don't want to have sex with me? But I want to."
"No, not right now."
"That's fine, I got some extra cash on me, I'll just go down to the Brothel."

That's about all for this little blurp. But I just wanted to let everyone know, who's reading this, in NO WAY am I catagorizing men. I'm just going off of statistical avarages, that men usually are the ones to frequent women prostitutes.

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#8    hunterkiller2001

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Posted 20 July 2004 - 03:56 PM

first off.. I apologize for the delay in posts.. been that kind of weekend.

first we need to stop and think of why people use such "services".
a few have already been explained, but lets recap.

Thier ugly
Bad in bed
away from home.
Wife (or g/f )unwilling.

Or they're single.. with either no time, no patience, or not ready to find a girl and take on the "baggage" that comes with a relationship ( no offense to anyone)


There is nothing wrong with wanting sex in any of the above situations. Once a male hits about 16, the "need" to have sex is brewing inside of them. In most cases, a guy would loose his virginity well before the legal age of 18, where he could have his first experiance with a prostitute. While superficially, it may have something to do with "becoming a man".  But deep down, it's the instinctual and hormonal need to spread thier seed.

On the same basis, it's not natural for humans to be monogamous. Through out history, people have been polyamorous, or have dabbled in "polyamory" relationships. Today, the trend is more popular then ever.  

All you'd be doing by legalizing prostitution is cutting back on the diseases people would contract by going to thier local corner.



Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin, Speaking on Gun control

--‘‘We, the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts  — not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.’’ — Abraham Lincoln

#9    odinsgrl

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 05:22 PM

Sorry for the delay....

I have to say HK, that this is becoming more interesting by the minute. I love this debate, because it shows the different veiws, of not only, Legal vs. Illeagal, it shows the different veiws of men and women.

I consiter myself a "strong" woman. My hope and wish, is for EVERY woman out there, to have self respect and strength of values, (whatever they may be). But I cannot but help, see this debate, furthering my opinion, that MEN benifit most from the legalization of prostitution. Yes, there would be male prostitutes out there, for women to frequent, but for the most part, women don't need a "quickie" that badly. The sexual differances between men and women, have been well documented- Men on the most part, like the visual and oral (no not THAT kind of oral) stimulation during sex, hence the popularity of magazines and movies (Playboy, Hustler, etc.). Women on the other hand, prefer the emotional connection with thier partner, romance, as some call it.

But about 95% of women, as dicussed in an earlier post, would not choose this way of life, because its something they want to do, but rather something they would do for the money; to feed their children, and put gas in thier car. They would be putting a price on thier self-respect and dignity. You stated in an earlier post, that women in the Sex Business, (Exotic Dancers, Porn Stars) do not get  discrimanated against, because of their career choice. But they do. Let's take your example-

QUOTE
Would people NOT go to a certain law firm if Jenna Jameson worked there?


MEN, would certainly be lining up around the block to go there! Why? Because she was a porn star. They might be lucky enough to sleep with her! I'm sorry, but I have to say, that's what would be going on in most mens' minds. Am I wrong?

Women that work in "the business", are looked apon, MUCH differently. Men think they are easy, some are, but most are not. It attracts the worst kind of men into your life, some might even go so far as to force themselves on the woman, and then claim, "She was a prostitute. She doesn't care. She gives it up all the time." Unfortunately, for most women that get into the sex industry (Exotic Dancer, Prostitute, Porn Stars), they do not get this insight until they actually are already in the industry, and by then the damage has already been done. I have known women who used to be Exotic Dancers, but haven't been for YEARS, but if men find out what she used to do, way back in yesteryear, they flock to them like seagulls on a half eaten sandwitch. Why? Because of her former profession. She must be easy! Imagine how they would be treated, if they were once a prostitute? Yikes!

I'm sorry if I'm getting a little feminist on you here, but as a woman, thats what I see. Men seem to not notice such things, and again, I am NOT generalizing men.

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#10    hunterkiller2001

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 07:12 PM

Your right.. this is becoming a great debate.. It's great to find a woman who can debate about this while using her brain.  A lot of women are like "it's wrong.. it's just wrong".  


Anyway..

After a quick call to The chicken ranch ( and a few other brothels) I was shocked to learn the average income of these ladies was anywhere between 60,000 - 100,000 + a year!


at anywhere from $100 (for "simple servives") to $400, these women make a lot of money.

Some quick searching on the net showed that most are mothers or college students.. the others probably like the money, or like having sex.

Now i don't know about you.. but if i could make that kind of income WHILE attending college.. damn knows  i would.
Most college students juggle a Job and school, trying to do homework, while working 30-40 hour a week just to make $200 a week.

A lot more sell thier soul to student loans, to pay for school, an apartment etc.

In NYthe average student is in debt $50,000 - 70,000 before they hit the "real world"  and then they need a house, a car.. it's bull sh**.

while it's not something most women would WANT to do.. They'd do it, because it would help them.  Look at strip clubs within a 50 mile radius of a major school..  most have tons of girls ready to jump up on that pole, and make money.

Your quite right, that a lot of men would be lining up at a chance to get Jenna in bed.. I wouldn't, but a lot of men would.

Lets not forget, that a lot of these brothels keep the identities of thier girls, and thier johns a complete secret. As far as your previous argument of not hiring a woman because she worked at a brothel.. she'd never have to tell them.
I could see it now.

2004-2008 Attended college at University of cheese-wiz, no work.


an employer would never know. the general public would never have to know.

Yea, if they met someone they fell in love with..  He'd know...  but if he is in love as well.. it wouldn't matter.


It's hard not to generalize men.. but don't forget hun.. not all men view women the same way  tongue.gif  

Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin, Speaking on Gun control

--‘‘We, the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts  — not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.’’ — Abraham Lincoln

#11    odinsgrl

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 09:33 PM

QUOTE
A lot of women are like "it's wrong.. it's just wrong".


Its funny that you mention that, that was the "argument" that my friend always used.

Anyway...back to my post.....

Yes, they do make ALOT of money. But they are the ones that have to go to bed, with the thought of, "Would I have had sex with that guy (a john), if he hadn't paid me?" For some women, those who like the sex, the answer would most likely be, yes. For the other 95%, the answer would be, absolutely not.

Yes, most jobs require sacrifices on the part of ones dignity, especially if you think the job is beneath you, what some would consiter "menial" (sp?), (Janitors, cooks, waitress). I, however, do not. But there is a BIG differance, between, "Would I have cleaned that toliet today, if I hadn't been paid to?" and, the earlier question. Most people can get over the fact, that they had to clean a toliet. Very few can  get over the fact, that they had sex, and sometimes preformed disgusting acts, with a complete stranger, all for the sake of a $.

Some might argue, that they weren't forced into this job, would it be legal. And if they want the good money, they have to do the dirty work. But if the leaglization were to take place, the most likely age, for women to start in this proffession, would be 18. I remember 18. Some of the worst decision making I ever did, was at that age. Now, these, young, impressionable women, would go into this profession, with big dreams and money in thier eyes, thinking, "Hey, I like sex. I can do that." But the reality of thier profession, would quickly sink in. They would soon realize, its not like having sex with thier boyfriends. These would be the men, that leer at them in the stores, or yell out disgusting remarks, as they walk down the street. They would be sleeping with men, that they would NEVER even think of speaking to, much less, letting them touch them. This kind of profession, at such a young age, would most likely shape the way they act and get treated by men, in the future. And the way I see it, it would not be for the better.


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#12    hunterkiller2001

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 10:00 PM

Wow.. final post..

You need to realize that it's not going to be every single man in the country that would go to these brothels.

Yes, I'm sure there will be cases where the john is so revolting, that the woman will want to just scream.

But remember, in this line of legal business, the girl calls the shots, and they're welcome to say no at any time.

It's not a case of "i choose this girl, here's your money.. now lets get at it"

The girl and the john negotiate the price, and the woman is welcome to deny any one they please.


This is how it is in nevada at least. You also need to realize that at the price these girls are goign for, not every tom, dick and harry will be jumping in line for a shot.

People with the money to frequent these places are sought after by women anyway.  If not for thier looks, then for thier money.

Making the income I am (60k) i couldn't see myself going to a place like this for sex.  Granted, I've been to a brothel in nevada.. but you know what.. i took the girl out to dinner... that's it  When people travel for business, they want some someone..  a date, an escort.. or someone "new" to wine and dine for a few days.. and thier the most frequent visitors of Nevada brothels.

Think of brothels in NY, LA, Chicago.. places frequented by businessmen..

The laws would be in place for the women to control who they do, and what they do to/with them.

Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.

Those who would give up essential liberty to purchase a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety." Benjamin Franklin, Speaking on Gun control

--‘‘We, the People are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts  — not to overthrow the Constitution, but to overthrow men who pervert the Constitution.’’ — Abraham Lincoln

#13    odinsgrl

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Posted 21 July 2004 - 10:15 PM

Ok! Rebuttal time! I guess I have to make a convincing argument now, huh? Lol.


I hope I have made my case, in the past few posts, that prostitution should remain illeagal, in the U.S. I have put forth my feelings on the subject, from the point of veiw, of a woman, living in the U.S. today.

Prostitution would be for the greater advantage for the men, in this country, than for the women who would be the prostitute. Women would indeed, now have a whole new job opened up for them, making great money, but at what cost? The young women who would then presue such a career, would go into a world that could change thier lives forever, and in most cases not for the better.

I just wanted to add, that I really have enjoyed this debate, with HK.  He is one great opponent! thumbsup.gif  His responses have been intellegent and well researched, and I want to thank him, for making this debate, so much fun!

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#14    Saru

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 09:24 AM

Thanks to both our participants for taking part, now over to the judges.


#15    Falco Rex

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Posted 22 July 2004 - 03:26 PM

Very good debate you guys..Heres your scores..

Debator 1:hunterkiller2001
Relevancy:9
Countering:8
Style:8
Persuasivenes:9
Total:34

Debator 2:odinsgrl
Relevancy:8
Countering:7
Style:10
Persuasiveness:9
Total:34

After I totalled up the scores I realized they came out even. I suppose I could have changed it by a point or so just to get a clear winner, but I don't guess that would be very honest on my part; so I'll let the scores stand..





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