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Scientists succeed in "teleporting" atom by


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#16    Pierce8

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 03:13 AM

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This is where quantum entanglement sometimes described as "teleportation" begins. "An invisible umbilical cord emerges connecting these two electrons. And you can separate them by as much as a galaxy if you want. Then, if you vibrate one of them, somehow on the other end of the galaxy the other electron knows that its partner is being jiggled."

Correct me if I'm wrong but.. with this explanation, it means that whatever things i do with the original will happen to its partner... How do we eradicate the original without eradicating its copy, since they are entangled with each other?...


#17    ThePitOfReason

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 05:56 AM

View PostDruidus-Logos, on 03 August 2010 - 12:58 PM, said:

It does not and never has existed.  The body is all there is.  You are a continually varying pattern of information in a material matrix, that's all.  If you transmit the matter in exactly the same pattern of information (or, more accurately, copy the pattern onto other matter), then you have transmitted/copied-pasted everything that the pattern ever was.  Do it to a person, and you HAVE teleported/copied the person, and the copy should feel just like the original.  But only if you can manage to keep the integrity of the pattern perfectly.

There is no such thing as a "soul", this is a vestige of religion and the idea of homunculi.  There is no reason to suggest the soul's existence, everything that we are can be explained physically.  This doesn't reduce th beauty of the world (and even if it did, that's no argument against it - the world doesn't HAVE to be magnificent), in fact, I'd say, it increases it.  The world's just amazing, and not having this fictional "soul" doesn't make it any less so.

I don't need the security blanket of the "soul".  I exist as a pattern.  I always have, I always will.  Even if I should die, the pattern remains as an influencing factor on the universe, and also remains in existence as a part of the pattern of the entire cosmos, in the past.  I don't need to pretend that I have a "soul" so that I can deal with death by imagining that my soul will survive and so I will.  That's a little childish, it's certainly self-serving.  With no reason to postulate the soul's existence, you are merely using a crutch to support yourself; you are afraid to see things as they really are.

Believe all you want.  But don't act surprised when someone calls you on your unwarrented beliefs.  You can't talk about these beliefs/opinions as if they are well-supported by science; it'll only make those who understand the science want to explain why you're wrong to profess them, at least scientifically wrong.

That said, it is definately true that even if you recreate the pattern in a new matrix, you don't have the original pattern.  It is a new and identical pattern.  If it is a person, for all practical purposes it will be the same person.  But there will be no genuine continuity.  You wouldn't appear in a new location in the same body.  It would be a new body, same pattern.  It would feel like the real person, the original, and for all real purposes it would be.  But, again, it's a new identical pattern in a new material matrix.  It's not the same person, and it's not even really teleportation.  Even if the person feels like there is a sense of continuity, this is an illusion created by copying the pattern and placing it in a new matrix.  It wouldn't be you if you did it, not really.  Imagine if you could retain both identical patterns, on both sides of the "teleporter".  Both would feel they were you, the original.  They would both be exactly the same, down to an atomic level.  They would have the same memories, attributes, characteristics, etc.  So who would really be the real you?  Both, though one pattern is older and more "real" in this way.  You are creating a new person when you do this, though with an old pattern.  The moment you both start to diverge is the moment that two people have come to exist, and not just a copy of an old one.  You will evolve in different ways because of differing environments.  This isn't really teleportation, it's a fancy way of flash-cloning people.  I think it may have more uses in medecine, if we can advance to transmitting advanced patterns of information and not be limited to single atom patterns.

You need to keep in mind some of us do believe in the human soul. As you do not that is nothing more than your belief. You can find ways around talking about this without bashing what others do believe in. Everything in life as far as religion is unwarrented beliefs and that includes even the way you view your own belief. What people grasp in life to believe in is a choice and has little to do with this topic for you to come in bashing them. It's not always about science when it comes to religion you should know that. Many things in life have been set into motion by nothing more than religion alone. People that do believe in the human soul do not need a warranty it's called faith some have it and others like yourself do not. But I do hope one day you find it because this pattern you speak of is pretty much your soul rather you can handle calling it that or not. They are both the same.

Edited by ThePitOfReason, 04 August 2010 - 05:57 AM.


#18    freeman88

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 09:02 AM

View PostPierce8, on 04 August 2010 - 03:13 AM, said:

Correct me if I'm wrong but.. with this explanation, it means that whatever things i do with the original will happen to its partner... How do we eradicate the original without eradicating its copy, since they are entangled with each other?...

After reading further ill post some quotes from persons more knowledgeable in the subject then myself(which i clearly lack)

"You can't "jiggle" one of the particles and use its entanglement partner to see that it has been "jiggled". What actually happens is that when one of the particles changes its state spontaneously, (without someone "jiggling" it), its partner will change its state at the same time. If you tried "jiggling" one of the particles, you would actually destroy the entanglement. The change in state has to be spontaneous, it can't be manipulated by outside forces. Sadly, this limitation makes quantum entanglement rather useless for any sort of communication purposes. Its really more like the particles are synchronized rather than somehow communicating with each other."





"There is also a fundamental misunderstanding, here: the difference between "Classical Teleportation" and "Quantum Teleportation".

"Classical Teleportation" is the sci-fi Star Trek type of teleportation we are all familiar with. Methods vary, but one example would be to scan every atom in your body into a digital data stream, upload that stream to a reciever elsewhere while destroying the original, and reconstruct a replica at the destination. You would die in the process, but no one else would care, not even your "clone". This leads to the moral questions hinted at in the third paragraph above. �

"Quantum Teleportation" is simply the manipulation of entangled pairs. An agitated electron here changes state, which causes its entangled buddy to change state too. It is not really teleportation at all, more like a transmitted signal. The entanglement happens faster than the speed of light, yes, but somewhat counter-intuitively, it cannot be used to actually communicate faster than light. Nor can it be used to transport matter in any way. No respectable physicist would suggest otherwise and it appears the physicists quoted in the article were taken out of context, likely due to ignorance on your part. Our current understanding is that superluminal communication (such as teleportation) is impossible. Nothing so far even suggests otherwise beyond empty conjecture"


#19    Druidus-Logos

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:33 PM

View PostThePitOfReason, on 04 August 2010 - 05:56 AM, said:

You need to keep in mind some of us do believe in the human soul. As you do not that is nothing more than your belief. You can find ways around talking about this without bashing what others do believe in. Everything in life as far as religion is unwarrented beliefs and that includes even the way you view your own belief. What people grasp in life to believe in is a choice and has little to do with this topic for you to come in bashing them. It's not always about science when it comes to religion you should know that. Many things in life have been set into motion by nothing more than religion alone. People that do believe in the human soul do not need a warranty it's called faith some have it and others like yourself do not. But I do hope one day you find it because this pattern you speak of is pretty much your soul rather you can handle calling it that or not. They are both the same.

I'm sorry, are we in the spirituality forum?  Did we wander there by mistake when I was talking?  Because, I seem to recall posting in "Science and Space > Science & Technology.  I hope you'll excuse me thinking in a logical and scientific fashion, as I thought that's where I was.

I'm not bashing people who believe in the soul.  I'm merely expressing my honest opinion of the belief.  It is NOT a belief to think that something DOESN'T exist.  That's a neutral state. It's where we SHOULD begin.  The burden of proof lies in showing that something does exist, not that something doesn't.  I don't have to DISPROVE werewolves before I can be fairly certain they don't exist.  I allow room, it is possible, but I doubt it severely.  Again, I don't have to prove that the soul doesn't exist; it's the point of origin, where we should begin our reasoning.  The universe is not designed for us.  It doesn't NEED to have souls as an in-built function.  So why have faith that it does?  It's the same as having faith in anything, arbitrarily.  You will have unfounded, mistaken, and often outdated beliefs (due to the function of "tradition for tradition's sake").  Go ahead and do it, if you want.  But don't expect me not to criticise the illogic of it all.  And don't take offense at this criticism either, for I don't mean it to be so, and I would offer the same type of arguments against anything I found lacking, not just "souls".

A pattern is not a soul.  A pattern is merely matter and energy in all its forms combined into a living organism, or  any complex life-like system (yes, even the lowly virus has a pattern), sometimes a human.  If you think a pattern is a soul, then plants, muskrats, beavers, cats, trees, bacteria, etc. all have souls.  It is not meant to describe anything "supernatural".  Indeed, as a concept it specifically relates only to existing science.  A pattern is not a conscious entity.  Without a physical, a material matrix, it cannot be conscious on its own.  When you die, your pattern will degrade, much like your body, which used to be the matrix.  It will remain only as a ripple in the pattern of the entire universe.

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#20    Power Lust

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:42 PM

View PostBlacksabbath, on 02 August 2010 - 01:46 PM, said:

Very interesting.

If you take two identical objects and weigh one of them because they are identical you've just learnt the weight of both of them.

Nothing special there except when you have the two objects behaving as a probability based on their weight. When you find the outcome of one of the probabilities the outcome of the other must match as their weights are always identical. So in effect you've just transfered the weight of one of them to the other.

Crazy stuff.


#21    emberlake

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 01:59 PM

View PostShaunZero, on 03 August 2010 - 11:24 PM, said:

If we teleport, wouldn't it just create a "double" of ourselves, and this instance of "us" would vanish? Imagine it like this: You enter the teleport machine, still conscious. Machine "copies" your data at the destination and rids of the "old you". This instance of "you" no longer exists, and the "double" of you appears at the destination thinking he's you because he has your memories, but in truth "you" dissapeared.
:su Nope don't think so.
In my opinion that's not what teleports do. Teleports teleport something from point A to point B, they do not copy and replace.

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#22    ThePitOfReason

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 05:26 PM

View PostDruidus-Logos, on 04 August 2010 - 01:33 PM, said:

I'm sorry, are we in the spirituality forum?  Did we wander there by mistake when I was talking?  Because, I seem to recall posting in "Science and Space > Science & Technology.  I hope you'll excuse me thinking in a logical and scientific fashion, as I thought that's where I was.

I'm not bashing people who believe in the soul.  I'm merely expressing my honest opinion of the belief.  It is NOT a belief to think that something DOESN'T exist.  That's a neutral state. It's where we SHOULD begin.  The burden of proof lies in showing that something does exist, not that something doesn't.  I don't have to DISPROVE werewolves before I can be fairly certain they don't exist.  I allow room, it is possible, but I doubt it severely.  Again, I don't have to prove that the soul doesn't exist; it's the point of origin, where we should begin our reasoning.  The universe is not designed for us.  It doesn't NEED to have souls as an in-built function.  So why have faith that it does?  It's the same as having faith in anything, arbitrarily.  You will have unfounded, mistaken, and often outdated beliefs (due to the function of "tradition for tradition's sake").  Go ahead and do it, if you want.  But don't expect me not to criticise the illogic of it all.  And don't take offense at this criticism either, for I don't mean it to be so, and I would offer the same type of arguments against anything I found lacking, not just "souls".

A pattern is not a soul.  A pattern is merely matter and energy in all its forms combined into a living organism, or  any complex life-like system (yes, even the lowly virus has a pattern), sometimes a human.  If you think a pattern is a soul, then plants, muskrats, beavers, cats, trees, bacteria, etc. all have souls.  It is not meant to describe anything "supernatural".  Indeed, as a concept it specifically relates only to existing science.  A pattern is not a conscious entity.  Without a physical, a material matrix, it cannot be conscious on its own.  When you die, your pattern will degrade, much like your body, which used to be the matrix.  It will remain only as a ripple in the pattern of the entire universe.

And you know what? In many ways I could nearly side with you on how you see this. But when you take a person and from birth bring them up into any religion it is hard to pull them out of those beliefs. I have always been what I am as my ancestors always found faith in the same. We all wonder and in may ways you can feel things must go a little deeper. But we are what we are.


#23    UltraThunderMan

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 05:56 PM

So when you teleport, you essentially kill yourself and let a clone of yourself come into existence?  That doesn't seem like it would be worth it at all.


#24    Drev

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 06:13 PM

I was thinking, could they also apply this to data transfer, like the internet? :x


#25    Druidus-Logos

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Posted 04 August 2010 - 06:15 PM

View PostThePitOfReason, on 04 August 2010 - 05:26 PM, said:

And you know what? In many ways I could nearly side with you on how you see this. But when you take a person and from birth bring them up into any religion it is hard to pull them out of those beliefs. I have always been what I am as my ancestors always found faith in the same. We all wonder and in may ways you can feel things must go a little deeper. But we are what we are.

This is not an adequate mindset for a conscious, sentient being.   You must try harder.  Doing what your ancestors have done, just because they did it, is not a justifiable stance; not logically.  You've got to apply more reason to the things you believe.

Look at it this way, if you must.  Why would an omnipotent and omniscient God create you with a drive to learn and understand, along with a capacity for logic and reason, if he didn't want you to use these things vigourously?

View Postkurethmu, on 04 August 2010 - 05:56 PM, said:

So when you teleport, you essentially kill yourself and let a clone of yourself come into existence?  That doesn't seem like it would be worth it at all.

Yes, unfortunately; at least using the method described.  It's a fairly useless discovery.  I did suggest a least one use, cloning parts of oneself for replacement.  You don't HAVE to destroy the original matter.

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#26    Harte

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 04:08 AM

View PostDruidus-Logos, on 04 August 2010 - 06:15 PM, said:

Yes, unfortunately; at least using the method described.  It's a fairly useless discovery.  I did suggest a least one use, cloning parts of oneself for replacement.  You don't HAVE to destroy the original matter.
There was one brief voice of reason in this thread that tried to explain to you all that this is not teleportation at all.

Did you listen?  No.

You'd rather argue about what happens to the soul when you teleport, and blithely ignore that no teleportation is occuring.

So sad.

You cannot transmit information through quantum entanglement, hence you cannot teleport anything at all that way.

So your "soul" is safe, assuming it was safe before this argument began - which I doubt for some of you.

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#27    Wickian

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 05:41 AM

I would be hesitant to "teleport" my own body since it wouldn't be my body that would be teleporting.  It would simply make a copy of me in another point of space and the original me would be converted to whatever was in the other part(if I understood the article correctly).  

If that is the case then the original me would die and only an exact copy would remain.


#28    Pierce8

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 01:38 PM

I still cannot understand the process.... say the two object are entangle with each other,, whatever i do with the original will happen to the clone... if the "cloning/not teleportation" be successfull how do they eradicate the original without affecting the other?... If im a scientist imm gonna research more in dimensions or wormhole if my goal is teleportation..that entanglement means murder,,,


#29    Druidus-Logos

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 02:09 PM

View PostPierce8, on 05 August 2010 - 01:38 PM, said:

I still cannot understand the process.... say the two object are entangle with each other,, whatever i do with the original will happen to the clone... if the "cloning/not teleportation" be successfull how do they eradicate the original without affecting the other?... If im a scientist imm gonna research more in dimensions or wormhole if my goal is teleportation..that entanglement means murder,,,

AFAIK, only properties are transferred, and it is also very hard to maintain entanglement.  You could do it so that the state becomes too unstable after "teleportation".  Moving an object or destroying the particles of an object won't do the same to an entangled object elsewhere.  The state where properties can transfer between particles does not last forever.

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#30    Blacksabbath

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Posted 05 August 2010 - 02:22 PM

View Postfreeman88, on 04 August 2010 - 09:02 AM, said:

"Quantum Teleportation" is simply the manipulation of entangled pairs. An agitated electron here changes state, which causes its entangled buddy to change state too. It is not really teleportation at all, more like a transmitted signal. The entanglement happens faster than the speed of light, yes, but somewhat counter-intuitively, it cannot be used to actually communicate faster than light. Nor can it be used to transport matter in any way. No respectable physicist would suggest otherwise and it appears the physicists quoted in the article were taken out of context, likely due to ignorance on your part. Our current understanding is that superluminal communication (such as teleportation) is impossible. Nothing so far even suggests otherwise beyond empty conjecture"

So basically it's got absolutely nothing to do with teleporting. Why did they call it teleporting if it has nothing to do with it?





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