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Japan's Buru-Sera Shops and Obsession


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#16    Druidus-Logos

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Posted 06 August 2010 - 04:05 PM

View PostDracotep Frankenwolf, on 04 August 2010 - 03:12 AM, said:

I realize that entertainment varies by culture, but there still are universal taboos, which is a good thing. For instance, cartoons or comics about incest would be banned and/or shunned by normal people in all countries. Rape stories fall into the same category. The "shades of gray" explanation doesn't always apply, because some material is objectively wrong.

I disagree.  Things are ONLY wrong if they cause definitive harm.  I don't think incest comics fall in this category.

Just because you find something wrong doesn't give you the right to apply this morality, then, to everyone.  And while I certainly agree that most people would shun this kind of thing, I also believe that there are completely harmless people out there doing no wrong to anyone who enjoy this kind of stuff.  They lead their lives, they don't hurt people, they don't commit crimes, etc.  And yet they have an uncontrolled attraction to things like incest, or others.  As long as this remains in the realm of fantasy, good for them, IMO.

I'd also not consider incest wrong in itself unless rape was involved, someone was underage, or there were fertility issues.  I don't think it's right to birth children from this kind of union, that would be harm caused.  But two people, brother and sister, who are consenting adults with no chance of conception, who just want to have sex...  Personally, I think that's their business, though I think they might look into a psychiatrist.  I wouldn't jail them for doing something that I find arbitrarily wrong.  If it doesn't cause harm, I can't justify illegalizing it.

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Censorship has always been used as a tool to subjugate minority ideas, regardless of validity.  Used to delegitimize certain points of view.  This kind of arbitary censorship will always be an injustice to humanity; it tries to brush ideas under the rug.  It forces the adoption of certain mainstream views, making it impossible to teach, learn, or speak about ideas that the censors disagree with.  This will always be unethical.

#17    Dracotep Frankenwolf

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 02:51 AM

View PostDruidus-Logos, on 06 August 2010 - 04:05 PM, said:

I disagree.  Things are ONLY wrong if they cause definitive harm.  I don't think incest comics fall in this category.

Just because you find something wrong doesn't give you the right to apply this morality, then, to everyone.  And while I certainly agree that most people would shun this kind of thing, I also believe that there are completely harmless people out there doing no wrong to anyone who enjoy this kind of stuff.  They lead their lives, they don't hurt people, they don't commit crimes, etc.  And yet they have an uncontrolled attraction to things like incest, or others.  As long as this remains in the realm of fantasy, good for them, IMO.

I'd also not consider incest wrong in itself unless rape was involved, someone was underage, or there were fertility issues.  I don't think it's right to birth children from this kind of union, that would be harm caused.  But two people, brother and sister, who are consenting adults with no chance of conception, who just want to have sex...  Personally, I think that's their business, though I think they might look into a psychiatrist.  I wouldn't jail them for doing something that I find arbitrarily wrong.  If it doesn't cause harm, I can't justify illegalizing it.

DL, I don't advocate censoring or outlawing consensual perversions (not involving underage individuals). That wasn't my point. My point was that we need the cojones to draw a line in the sand and say that some things are immoral. Too many cowed people are afraid to say what they think because they might offend some tiny fringe group of perverts. I'm not one of these people. I'm not afraid to say that incest and rape stories are sick and twisted. Value judgments aren't always bad things, despite the increasingly nauseating PC propaganda that seeks to destroy society's moral compass. I have no reservations about exercising my *right* to condemn obviously depraved material.


#18    Druidus-Logos

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 03:09 AM

First of all would you mind calling me either D-L or Druidus or Logos?  Or D-Logos.  I don't like DL, though many folks use it.  If you don't mind of course, please.  Much appreciated.

View PostDracotep Frankenwolf, on 08 August 2010 - 02:51 AM, said:

DL, I don't advocate censoring or outlawing consensual perversions (not involving underage individuals). That wasn't my point. My point was that we need the cojones to draw a line in the sand and say that some things are immoral. Too many cowed people are afraid to say what they think because they might offend some tiny fringe group of perverts. I'm not one of these people. I'm not afraid to say that incest and rape stories are sick and twisted. Value judgments aren't always bad things, despite the increasingly nauseating PC propaganda that seeks to destroy society's moral compass. I have no reservations about exercising my *right* to condemn obviously depraved material.

I'm sorry, but these "perverts" are not wrong.  It is you who is wrong for condemning people hurting no one.

No line in the sand need be drawn, and it IS bigoted to think there needs to be one.  You'll have to do better than that, and use real logic and science, to show yourself to be right.

I am disgusted with many sexual practices.  But I would NEVER deign to say that I'm superior to those people and should be able to choose what they can look at.  That is the true immorality.  You have a "right" to condemn it.  You don't have a right to tell people they can't do it.

Rape fantasy is common.  My girlfriend likes it when I "rape" her.  We've learned a lot from rape stories about how to do it (I'm rather shy).  How is that wrong?  We both like it.  It's consensual.  I haven't raped anyone, and we've read a LOT of rape stories.  These stories have only helped, not hurt.  And that's why its ok.

No one has the right to "draw a line in the sand" and suggest that anyone else who doesn't fit within your sexual boundaries should be forced to be asexual, or at least not pursue their harmless passions.

Your attitude is vestigial and moralistic.  You CANNOT tell people what to do without science.  To do so is proselytization and is a disgusting attempt at controlling people you have no right to control.

I'm sorry you find it icky.  Again, though, that doesn't mean you can screw with the lives of MILLIONS.  Yes, that's right, millions.  And perhaps billions.  These are NATURAL APE ATTRACTIONS.  ANY OUTLET IS A GOOD OUTLET IF IT LOWERS THE INCIDENTS OF SUCCUMBING TO INNAPPROPRIATE ATTRACTIONS.

Edited by Druidus-Logos, 08 August 2010 - 03:11 AM.

~I am a dark melody of chaos and order, a shadowed figure painted upon the heavens of dusk.~
Censorship has always been used as a tool to subjugate minority ideas, regardless of validity.  Used to delegitimize certain points of view.  This kind of arbitary censorship will always be an injustice to humanity; it tries to brush ideas under the rug.  It forces the adoption of certain mainstream views, making it impossible to teach, learn, or speak about ideas that the censors disagree with.  This will always be unethical.

#19    Eldorado

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 03:40 AM

In the west, the majority of us were raised with Judeo-Christian morals that other parts of the world simply do not understand. What is "perverse" to us is acceptable in those other cultures, and vice-versa.

Even within the west, what is seen as "normal" varies.
"underage" for example. Some places it's under-18, others it's under-16....in Spain it's under-13!

We shouldn't judge too harshly.


#20    Dracotep Frankenwolf

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 05:00 AM

View PostDruidus-Logos, on 08 August 2010 - 03:09 AM, said:

First of all would you mind calling me either D-L or Druidus or Logos?  Or D-Logos.  I don't like DL, though many folks use it.  If you don't mind of course, please.  Much appreciated.



I'm sorry, but these "perverts" are not wrong.  It is you who is wrong for condemning people hurting no one.

No line in the sand need be drawn, and it IS bigoted to think there needs to be one.  You'll have to do better than that, and use real logic and science, to show yourself to be right.

I am disgusted with many sexual practices.  But I would NEVER deign to say that I'm superior to those people and should be able to choose what they can look at.  That is the true immorality.  You have a "right" to condemn it.  You don't have a right to tell people they can't do it.

Rape fantasy is common.  My girlfriend likes it when I "rape" her.  We've learned a lot from rape stories about how to do it (I'm rather shy).  How is that wrong?  We both like it.  It's consensual.  I haven't raped anyone, and we've read a LOT of rape stories.  These stories have only helped, not hurt.  And that's why its ok.

No one has the right to "draw a line in the sand" and suggest that anyone else who doesn't fit within your sexual boundaries should be forced to be asexual, or at least not pursue their harmless passions.

Your attitude is vestigial and moralistic.  You CANNOT tell people what to do without science.  To do so is proselytization and is a disgusting attempt at controlling people you have no right to control.

I'm sorry you find it icky.  Again, though, that doesn't mean you can screw with the lives of MILLIONS.  Yes, that's right, millions.  And perhaps billions.  These are NATURAL APE ATTRACTIONS.  ANY OUTLET IS A GOOD OUTLET IF IT LOWERS THE INCIDENTS OF SUCCUMBING TO INNAPPROPRIATE ATTRACTIONS.

(smacks forehead) Did you even read the first sentence in my post? I said that I wouldn't censor or outlaw perverse material that doesn't feature minors. Thus, your whole emotional response to my post is merely based on a strawman, which distorts what I *really* said. I'll repeat my main point in a succinct fashion. Some material is so depraved and wretched that it deserves society's condemnation. There are times when a spade should be called a spade. I don't care if that may be disurbing to some folks' delicate sensibilities. Some of us aren't brainwashed by the PC garbage that's an affront to common sense.


#21    Dracotep Frankenwolf

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 05:10 AM

View PostEldorado, on 08 August 2010 - 03:40 AM, said:

In the west, the majority of us were raised with Judeo-Christian morals that other parts of the world simply do not understand. What is "perverse" to us is acceptable in those other cultures, and vice-versa.

Even within the west, what is seen as "normal" varies.
"underage" for example. Some places it's under-18, others it's under-16....in Spain it's under-13!

We shouldn't judge too harshly.

There was a time when Black people were seen as inferior by much of American society. Women are treated like trash in some Muslim countries. Is it all just cultural and relative kumbaya? We shouldn't judge too harshly, right? ;-)


#22    Druidus-Logos

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 05:27 AM

View PostDracotep Frankenwolf, on 08 August 2010 - 05:00 AM, said:

(smacks forehead) Did you even read the first sentence in my post? I said that I wouldn't censor or outlaw perverse material that doesn't feature minors. Thus, your whole emotional response to my post is merely based on a strawman, which distorts what I *really* said. I'll repeat my main point in a succinct fashion. Some material is so depraved and wretched that it deserves society's condemnation. There are times when a spade should be called a spade. I don't care if that may be disurbing to some folks' delicate sensibilities. Some of us aren't brainwashed by the PC garbage that's an affront to common sense.

Whatever helps you sleep better at night.

I'm not brainwashed  by political correctness, regardless of what you want to believe.

You seem unable to accept that some people, many people, do not have the qualms that you do and do not need your arbitrary condemnations.  I'm talking science.  You're talking condemnation because you find something icky or bad to you emotionally.  Guess what?  You aren't everyone, and many others have different and just as valid emotions.  If they aren't hurting anyone, they should not be denigrated or shunned.  As I've said before, education and acceptance are FAR more important than condemnation out of hand.

Whatever makes your beliefs easier to hold though.  I'm sure that just because you feel a certain way, that's how it must be.  I mean, you're you, and that's all that matters, you and your beliefs!

I'll rip apart your posts with logic tomorrow (not that I think you'll listen to logic), for now I sleep.

Edited by Druidus-Logos, 08 August 2010 - 05:28 AM.

~I am a dark melody of chaos and order, a shadowed figure painted upon the heavens of dusk.~
Censorship has always been used as a tool to subjugate minority ideas, regardless of validity.  Used to delegitimize certain points of view.  This kind of arbitary censorship will always be an injustice to humanity; it tries to brush ideas under the rug.  It forces the adoption of certain mainstream views, making it impossible to teach, learn, or speak about ideas that the censors disagree with.  This will always be unethical.

#23    Dracotep Frankenwolf

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 05:52 AM

View PostDruidus-Logos, on 08 August 2010 - 05:27 AM, said:

Whatever helps you sleep better at night.

I'm not brainwashed  by political correctness, regardless of what you want to believe.

You seem unable to accept that some people, many people, do not have the qualms that you do and do not need your arbitrary condemnations.  I'm talking science.  You're talking condemnation because you find something icky or bad to you emotionally.  Guess what?  You aren't everyone, and many others have different and just as valid emotions.  If they aren't hurting anyone, they should not be denigrated or shunned.  As I've said before, education and acceptance are FAR more important than condemnation out of hand.

Whatever makes your beliefs easier to hold though.  I'm sure that just because you feel a certain way, that's how it must be.  I mean, you're you, and that's all that matters, you and your beliefs!

I'll rip apart your posts with logic tomorrow (not that I think you'll listen to logic), for now I sleep.

No offense, but forgive me if I don't expect to see much so-called logic in your next reply. None is in evidence so far. However, it's quite logical and rational to criticize depictions of raped teenagers that are used to satisfy the perversions of a subculture of sick Japanese men, who don't represent most Japanese citizens. *Logical* individuals would understand that.


#24    Druidus-Logos

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 05:57 AM

View PostDracotep Frankenwolf, on 08 August 2010 - 05:52 AM, said:

No offense, but forgive me if I don't expect to see much so-called logic in your next reply. None is in evidence so far. However, it's quite logical and rational to criticize depictions of raped teenagers that are used to satisfy the perversions of a subculture of sick Japanese men, who don't represent most Japanese citizens. *Logical* individuals would understand that.

No offense, but I don't think you are capable of recognizing logic when you see it.  It seems you are only capable of knee-jerk emotional responses.

Sorry, but I don't condider it logic to use the rhetoric you do in order to condemn people who have harmed nobody.

Just because you disagree with something doesn't make you right.

Truly logical individuals would allow that so long as someone causes no harm, then there is no foul.

Out of curiousity, are you religious?

Edited by Druidus-Logos, 08 August 2010 - 05:58 AM.

~I am a dark melody of chaos and order, a shadowed figure painted upon the heavens of dusk.~
Censorship has always been used as a tool to subjugate minority ideas, regardless of validity.  Used to delegitimize certain points of view.  This kind of arbitary censorship will always be an injustice to humanity; it tries to brush ideas under the rug.  It forces the adoption of certain mainstream views, making it impossible to teach, learn, or speak about ideas that the censors disagree with.  This will always be unethical.

#25    Druidus-Logos

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 06:07 AM

In hindsight, maybe I was a little unduly harsh.  Sorry, if that's that case.  Don't mind me, I honestly don't mean to cause problems, I'm just used to this kind of conversations on other more vigourous forums.

Again, sorry, let's tone it down and have an enjoyable convrsation.  I don't want to steal the thread from the OP with inanity and flamewars.

~I am a dark melody of chaos and order, a shadowed figure painted upon the heavens of dusk.~
Censorship has always been used as a tool to subjugate minority ideas, regardless of validity.  Used to delegitimize certain points of view.  This kind of arbitary censorship will always be an injustice to humanity; it tries to brush ideas under the rug.  It forces the adoption of certain mainstream views, making it impossible to teach, learn, or speak about ideas that the censors disagree with.  This will always be unethical.

#26    Lilly

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 07:37 AM

View PostDruidus-Logos, on 08 August 2010 - 05:57 AM, said:


Just because you disagree with something doesn't make you right.

Truly logical individuals would allow that so long as someone causes no harm, then there is no foul.

Out of curiousity, are you religious?

Disagreement with something like this is not illogical. When it comes to moral standards it de facto becomes something more than just 'logic'. It can be quite rationally argued that sexual preoccupation with underage children indicates pedophilia.

As for the "no harm no foul" reasoning, one could easily argue that this kind of thing is a border line version of "kiddie porn" and may very well be psychologically harmful.

While most religions do incorporate moral criteria protective of children this is a civil/sociological issue as well. Personally, I find this kind of thing to be objectionable and not beneficial to civilized society.

"Ignorance is ignorance. It is a state of mind, not an opinion." ~MID~

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#27    Eldorado

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Posted 08 August 2010 - 08:55 AM

View PostDracotep Frankenwolf, on 08 August 2010 - 05:10 AM, said:

There was a time when Black people were seen as inferior by much of American society. Women are treated like trash in some Muslim countries. Is it all just cultural and relative kumbaya? We shouldn't judge too harshly, right? ;-)

There's a helluva difference between a racist society, the subjugation of females and some guy being conned out of money for a pair of soiled panties.

The Asians are more up-front and open about their sexual fantasies than us in the west, where the same fetishes are just as common but are disguised, hidden and denied.

"The pornographic film industry is centered in the San Fernando Valley, northwest of downtown Los Angeles. An estimated 200 production companies in the region employ as many as 1,500 performers, making up to 11,000 films and earning as much as $13 billion a year."
http://www.nytimes.c...13hiv.html?_r=1

Catholic Schoolgirl's Uniform
"The girls' uniform has become an iconic figure in Western culture, on par with the sailor fuku of Japan; women dressed in Catholic school uniforms (or a variation thereof) is also a common sexual fetish."
http://en.wikipedia...._school_uniform

Edited by Eldorado, 08 August 2010 - 08:56 AM.


#28    Dracotep Frankenwolf

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 03:55 AM

View PostEldorado, on 08 August 2010 - 08:55 AM, said:

There's a helluva difference between a racist society, the subjugation of females and some guy being conned out of money for a pair of soiled panties.

The Asians are more up-front and open about their sexual fantasies than us in the west, where the same fetishes are just as common but are disguised, hidden and denied.

"The pornographic film industry is centered in the San Fernando Valley, northwest of downtown Los Angeles. An estimated 200 production companies in the region employ as many as 1,500 performers, making up to 11,000 films and earning as much as $13 billion a year."
http://www.nytimes.c...13hiv.html?_r=1

Catholic Schoolgirl's Uniform
"The girls' uniform has become an iconic figure in Western culture, on par with the sailor fuku of Japan; women dressed in Catholic school uniforms (or a variation thereof) is also a common sexual fetish."
http://en.wikipedia...._school_uniform

My attempted sarcasm failed (hence the ;-) wink). I was referring to general racism and sexism, not Jim Crow and sharia law. My point was that most people draw the line at some things, and they use value judgments to do so. Communities declare that some things aren't acceptable, for the sake of a harmonious society. That's not to say that unpopular ideas, material, speech, etc. should be banned. It's to say that individuals have the right to deem it unacceptable when they recognize the possible harm of it. This applies to material that features incest and rape as the central focus of "entertainment". Common sense dictates that some things cross the proverbial line, and it's fine to say that they do.


#29    Dracotep Frankenwolf

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 04:11 AM

View PostDruidus-Logos, on 08 August 2010 - 06:07 AM, said:

In hindsight, maybe I was a little unduly harsh.  Sorry, if that's that case.  Don't mind me, I honestly don't mean to cause problems, I'm just used to this kind of conversations on other more vigourous forums.

Again, sorry, let's tone it down and have an enjoyable convrsation.  I don't want to steal the thread from the OP with inanity and flamewars.

All is forgiven. It would be petty and silly to hold a grudge over a somewhat heated debate. There are things that *really* matter, and this isn't one of them. Besides, I've been on other forums that are like the worst parts of the Bronx.


#30    Jack Griffin

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Posted 11 August 2010 - 06:57 PM

View PostH.H. Holmes, on 02 August 2010 - 10:26 PM, said:

...Shops, even vending machines, are known to sell used schoolgirl underwear or uniforms.[/url] The more worn they are, the more they sell for. Skidmarks or menstrual blood is especially desired when men buy these type of items...

Noted and filed under "Ewwwwwwww..."





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