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Cro-Magnon


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#16    lightly

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 12:38 PM

View PostPiney, on 12 August 2010 - 01:06 AM, said:

Especially since they had a tool complex and command of fire.



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Good point Piney,  that pretty much proves they could say OW!  and  Son of a .....!*!*!

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#17    LucidElement

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 06:56 PM

Harte, always gotta debate about stuff.. and no here is a link that states there 35,000 years old!!!!

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Cro-Magnon

MY GOD MAN!!! your soo stubborn!

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#18    Qoais

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 09:32 PM

Voice Box?  I thought it had to do with the development of the flapping jaw! :yes: No doubt most creatures could make some sort of sound right from the get go, therefore, they must have had a voice box (larynx) but to be able to make speech, they needed that hinged jaw.  Monkeys can be trained to communicate with a sign board or digital image board, but they cannot speak.

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#19    kmt_sesh

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 10:22 PM

View PostQoais, on 12 August 2010 - 09:32 PM, said:

Voice Box?  I thought it had to do with the development of the flapping jaw! :yes: No doubt most creatures could make some sort of sound right from the get go, therefore, they must have had a voice box (larynx) but to be able to make speech, they needed that hinged jaw.  Monkeys can be trained to communicate with a sign board or digital image board, but they cannot speak.

What do you mean by "hinged jaw"? A great many animals have that. Some, including various snakes I believe, have a double-hinge that allows them to open even wider, the better to gobble up rodents, house pets, and small children. :devil:

Speech is a lot more complicated. Many creatures also have some form of larynx and "voice box," but the very shape or morphology of this part of the anatomy is critical to producing speech, as are related structures like the tongue. A subtle difference in the architecture and physiognomy of these features will allow or preclude speech. Of course also critical is the development of key parts of the brain. This last is the most important of all. Many animals can produce complex variances of sound but only Homo sapiens sapiens are capable of true, cognizant speech.

And some of us Homo sapiens sapiens are so capable of speech that it's hard to shut us up. I'm referring to myself, of course.

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#20    Eldorado

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 10:31 PM

"The question is how do you all think the cro-magnon started the spread of a modernized language?"

They told a few women some secret stuff and before they knew it, everyone on the planet was talking about it.


#21    kmt_sesh

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 10:59 PM

View PostEldorado, on 12 August 2010 - 10:31 PM, said:

"The question is how do you all think the cro-magnon started the spread of a modernized language?"

They told a few women some secret stuff and before they knew it, everyone on the planet was talking about it.

Before the women of UM band together to smite you, let me just say, Eldorado...that was damn funny. :lol:

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#22    cormac mac airt

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Posted 12 August 2010 - 11:52 PM

Quote

"The question is how do you all think the cro-magnon started the spread of a modernized language?"

Considering, once again, that Cro-magnon ARE US, who says we started the spread of any form of language, let alone a modernized one at any point within the last 35,000 years? Neanderthals had a modern hyoid bone (as well), necessary for speech, from c.60,000 BP.

Quote

The origin of human language, and in particular the question of whether or not Neanderthal man was capable of language/speech, is of major interest to anthropologists but remains an area of great controversy. Despite palaeoneurological evidence to the contrary, many researchers hold to the view that Neanderthals were incapable of language/speech, basing their arguments largely on studies of laryngeal/basicranial morphology. Studies, however, have been hampered by the absence of unambiguous fossil evidence. We now report the discovery of a well-preserved human hyoid bone from Middle Palaeolithic layers of Kebara Cave, Mount Carmel, Israel, dating from about 60,000 years BP. The bone is almost identical in size and shape to the hyoid of present-day populations, suggesting that there has been little or no change in the visceral skeleton (including the hyoid, middle ear ossicles, and inferentially the larynx) during the past 60,000 years of human evolution. We conclude that the morphological basis for human speech capability appears to have been fully developed during the Middle Palaeolithic.

A Middle Palaeolithic human hyoid bone

and in addition this:

Quote

This study describes and compares two hyoid bones from the middle Pleistocene site of the Sima de los Huesos in the Sierra de Atapuerca (Spain). The Atapuerca SH hyoids are humanlike in both their morphology and dimensions, and they clearly differ from the hyoid bones of chimpanzees and Australopithecus afarensis. Their comparison with the Neandertal specimens Kebara 2 and SDR-034 makes it possible to begin to approach the question of temporal variation and sexual dimorphism in this bone in fossil humans. The results presented here show that the degree of metric and anatomical variation in the fossil sample was similar in magnitude and kind to living humans. Modern hyoid morphology was present by at least 530 kya and appears to represent a shared derived feature of the modern human and Neandertal evolutionary lineages inherited from their last common ancestor.

Human hyoid bones from the middle Pleistocene site of the Sima de los Huesos (Sierra de Atapuerca, Spain)

As to a hyoid bone, and possible speech, in Homo erectus:

Quote

Authors describe a hyoid bone body, without horns, attributed to Homo erectus from Castel di Guido (Rome, Italy), dated to about 400,000 years BP. The hyoid bone body shows the bar-shaped morphology characteristic of Homo, in contrast to the bulla-shaped body morphology of African apes and Australopithecus. Its measurements differ from those of the only known complete specimens from other extinct human species and early hominid (Kebara Neandertal and Australopithecus afarensis), and from the mean values observed in modern humans. The almost total absence of muscular impressions on the body's ventral surface suggests a reduced capability for elevating this hyoid bone and modulating the length of the vocal tract in Homo erectus. The shield-shaped body, the probable small size of the greater horns and the radiographic image appear to be archaic characteristics; they reveal some similarities to non-humans and pre-human genera, suggesting that the morphological basis for human speech didn't arise in Homo erectus.

A Homo erectus hyoid bone: possible implications for the origin of the human capability for speech.

cormac

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#23    kmt_sesh

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 01:21 AM

Good post, cormac. I didn't even mention the hyoid bone. Goodness knows, it's kind of, sort of important to the whole issue of speech. :lol:

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#24    cormac mac airt

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 01:34 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 13 August 2010 - 01:21 AM, said:

Good post, cormac. I didn't even mention the hyoid bone. Goodness knows, it's kind of, sort of important to the whole issue of speech. :lol:

Thanks, kmt_sesh. Kind of puts the kibosh on the whole "Cro-Magnons were first" tact that's being taken here. Don't you think?

cormac

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#25    kmt_sesh

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 02:33 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 13 August 2010 - 01:34 AM, said:

Thanks, kmt_sesh. Kind of puts the kibosh on the whole "Cro-Magnons were first" tact that's being taken here. Don't you think?

cormac

I don't know. I've met some people who remind me of Cro-Magnons and they do seem to grunt a lot. I'm always waiting for them to drool.

Unfortunately I used to be a fan of that old sci-fi television show called Sliders. I can't even remember the premise anymore but I think they were sliding into and out of parallel universes. They kept coming up against powerful armies of Cro-Mags, so now when I hear "Cro-Magnon"  I tend to think of something like this. :w00t:

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#26    TheSearcher

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 07:14 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 12 August 2010 - 11:52 PM, said:

Considering, once again, that Cro-magnon ARE US, who says we started the spread of any form of language, let alone a modernized one at any point within the last 35,000 years? Neanderthals had a modern hyoid bone (as well), necessary for speech, from c.60,000 BP.



A Middle Palaeolithic human hyoid bone

and in addition this:



Human hyoid bones from the middle Pleistocene site of the Sima de los Huesos (Sierra de Atapuerca, Spain)

As to a hyoid bone, and possible speech, in Homo erectus:



A Homo erectus hyoid bone: possible implications for the origin of the human capability for speech.

cormac

On the other hand, both brain-size and the presence of the Broca's area, within the Homo Erectus, seem to suggest the opposite. Or the least to suggest a rudimentary speech and articulate language.

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#27    SlimJim22

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 10:48 AM

The Cro-Magnons are identified with Homo sapiens sapiens of modern form, in the time range ca. 35,000–10,000 b.p., roughly corresponding with the period of the Upper Paleolithic in archaeology. The term “Cro-Magnon” has no formal taxonomic status, since it refers neither to a species or subspecies nor to an archaeological phase or culture. The name is not commonly encountered in modern professional literature in English, since authors prefer to talk more generally of anatomically modern humans. They thus avoid a certain ambiguity in the label “Cro-Magnon,” which is sometimes used to refer to all early moderns in Europe (as opposed to the preceding Neanderthals), and sometimes to refer to a specific human group that can be distinguished from other Upper Paleolithic humans in the region. Nevertheless, the term “Cro-Magnon” is still very commonly used in popular texts, because it makes an obvious distinction with the Neanderthals, and also refers directly to people, rather than to the complicated succession of archaeological phases that make up the Upper Paleolithic. This evident practical value has prevented archaeologists and human paleontologists—especially in continental Europe—from dispensing entirely with the idea of Cro-Magnons.

The Cro-Magnons take their name from a rock shelter in the Vezere Valley in the Dordogne, within the famous village of Les Eyzies de Tayac. When the railway was being constructed in 1868, parts of five skeletons were found sealed in Pleistocene deposits, along with hearths and Aurignacian artifacts. Subsequently similar finds were made at sites such as Combe Capelle and Laugerie-Basse in the Dordogne, and Mentone and Grimaldi in Italy. Other specimens found earlier, such as Paviland in Britain and Engis in Belgium could be set in the same group, and it became plain that their physical makeup contrasted sharply with that of Neanderthals discovered in other sites. Sufficient data to build up this classic picture accumulated over a period, but it was brought into sharp focus following the find of a classic Neanderthal at La Chapelle in 1908. The early interpretations owe much to the French scholars Marcellin Boule and Henri Vallois. Later research has extended the geographical distribution of similar humans and has provided an absolute dating scale for them; however, later research has also raised many questions about the origins of the Cro-Magnons and their status as a coherent group.

Physical Characteristics and Adaptation
Cro-Magnons were closely similar to modern humans, but more robust in some features, especially of the cranium. They meet criteria listed by Michael Day and Chris Stringer for modern humans, such as a short, high cranium and a discontinuous supra-orbital torus (brow ridge). Many individuals were well above present-day average in stature, often reaching around 75 inches (190 cm). Their limbs were long, especially in the forearms and lower legs, body proportions suggesting to some anthropologists that their origins lie in warm climes, rather than Ice Age Europe.

Read more: Cro-magnons - Physical Characteristics and Adaptation, Chronology, Geographical Distribution, Cultural Associations, Relationship with the Neanderthals and Other Hominids - 000, Modern, Human, Europe, Humans, and Paleolithic http://www.jrank.org...l#ixzz0wTsyDCTZ


http://www.jrank.org...ro-magnons.html

http://www.donsmaps.com/cromagnon.html

http://anthro.paloma.../mod_homo_4.htm

http://www.atlantisq...om/America.html

http://wysinger.home...m/grimaldi.html

Just some links that I found interesting. From my reckoning there were modern humans of slightly different proportions between 40,000 and 10,000bce. It is safe to assume that they had the power of speech. What intrigues me is what led them to be bigger in proportion? Was it a case of ice age animals were bigger so man grew bigger to hunt them. Then when the ice afge ended and animals began to shrink then so did we.

I know that modern humans have been around for 200,000 years and did not evolve as big as cro magnon and grimaldi in Africa so why is it that in the south of Europe, caucasoid and negroid characteristics can be found amongst these 'giants'.

Furthermore, to what extent were they wiped out or did they infact breed with the rest of the modern human population, of which they were apart? If so are there any genetic markers to indicate a genuine connection to the Finns, Basques or Berbers? Sorry if I am way off the mark as I know I have been through this with some of you before. Please clarify.

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#28    cormac mac airt

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 11:37 AM

View PostTheSearcher, on 13 August 2010 - 07:14 AM, said:

On the other hand, both brain-size and the presence of the Broca's area, within the Homo Erectus, seem to suggest the opposite. Or the least to suggest a rudimentary speech and articulate language.

Hello TheSearcher,

Herein lies the problem, IMO. Both the brain AND the throat need to be of sufficient developement to even remotely approach modern, or near so, human speech and language. In Homo erectus, the brain was developing but the hyoid bone and surrounding structures were still in their infancy, so to speak. I'm not sure one could call the sounds they made a language, but surely it was an early form of communication.

cormac

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#29    Harte

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 12:11 PM

View PostLucidElement, on 12 August 2010 - 06:56 PM, said:

Harte, always gotta debate about stuff.. and no here is a link that states there 35,000 years old!!!!

http://en.wikipedia....wiki/Cro-Magnon

MY GOD MAN!!! your soo stubborn!
Stubborn?

Any you, man, apparently don't bother to read posts that contradict what you say.

So, can you please quote from any post I made that argues about the time period in which Cro-Magnon (a term not even really used anymore) existed?

Speech and language did not originate with Cro-Magnon man. It's just as simple as that.

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#30    cormac mac airt

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Posted 13 August 2010 - 02:55 PM

Quote

I know that modern humans have been around for 200,000 years and did not evolve as big as cro magnon and grimaldi in Africa so why is it that in the south of Europe, caucasoid and negroid characteristics can be found amongst these 'giants'.

Besides the fact that we've been over this before, that is that your Grimaldi man IS Cro-Magnon and therefore irrelevant as a different form of human, Cro-Magnon is Homo sapiens sapiens. So what else would you expect from a member of HSS, but that they have characteristics of modern humans (HSS)?

Quote

Furthermore, to what extent were they wiped out or did they infact breed with the rest of the modern human population, of which they were apart?

Being us, they weren't wiped out. Following your train of thought, I suppose we ought to consider the Tutsi/Watusi as somehow less than HSS as well, considering they are bigger (in height) than the average person.

Quote

If so are there any genetic markers to indicate a genuine connection to the Finns, Basques or Berbers?

Cro-Magnon's are HSS. Finns, Basques and Berbers are HSS. You are trying to create a difference where none exists.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus




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