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Talk has not halted biodiversity loss


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#1    katzemacht

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 12:32 AM

Help us compile a list of 100 tasks that G20 governments should undertake to prove their commitment to tackling the biodiversity crisis

http://www.guardian....-tasks-campaign


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http://action.biolog...action_KEY=1680

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#2    Mike D boy

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 01:33 AM

The general decline in biodiversity is an issue not to be ignored, but the scientific community in the fields of zoology, botany and ecology knew how the planet's ecosystem requires for biodiversity to be preserved and not interrupted. The introduction of thousands of invasive "alien" species from one environment to another, when a new animal or plant finds new space to conquer without predation, can drive perhaps hundreds of other species into extinction. The examples of invasive species brought from over from other lands into Hawaii, Australia and other geographically isolated eco-realms proved ot be catastrophic, like the reason for Australian concerns on biodiversity, from how English toads and bunnies displaced indigenous frogs and a few now-extinct kinds of wallabies in the 19th century.

:innocent: The Truth is Out There - the X Files. :alien:

#3    redhen

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 02:05 AM

I would start with making signatory countries enforce their existing obligations.

"... French secretary of state for ecology, Chantal Jouanno. She announced that there would be no further major efforts to restore the population of Pyrenean brown bears, of which fewer than 20 remain. Extensive scientific research shows that this population is not viable. European agreements oblige France to sustain the population. Yet the government knows that the political costs of reintroducing more bears outweigh the costs of inaction. Immediate special interests triumph over the world's natural wonders, even in nations which have the money and the means to protect them."

"Immediate special interests" = $$$, land development, and votes.

We need a cultural shift, a redefinition of progress.




#4    Wyrdlight

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 10:25 AM

Species will go extinct, if they have not evolved/adapted sufficuantly.

I am not saying we should go out of our way to kill them off, but i dont think we should go to silly lengths to save them

The Panda for example, is an evolutionary dead end, it has no use, no purpose, it is fragile, inneficiant the only reason we invest so much effort into keeping it alive is because it looks cute.

Keystone species should be saved, the others are not so important in my opinion.


#5    Druidus-Logos

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 12:33 PM

View PostWyrdlight, on 17 August 2010 - 10:25 AM, said:

Species will go extinct, if they have not evolved/adapted sufficuantly.

I am not saying we should go out of our way to kill them off, but i dont think we should go to silly lengths to save them

The Panda for example, is an evolutionary dead end, it has no use, no purpose, it is fragile, inneficiant the only reason we invest so much effort into keeping it alive is because it looks cute.

Keystone species should be saved, the others are not so important in my opinion.

I'm sorry, but that's just ridiculous.  You treat species as isolates.  Ha!  It couldn't be further from the truth.

All drops of water ripple every part of the pond, they just do it less the further they spread.  All species are important and worthy of protection.  What you're talking about is letting go of species BECAUSE WE HAVE MADE THEM UNFIT, and not because they are so naturally.  Do you not know that extinction levels today are at the mass-extinction level?  As high or higher than during the saurian extinction event. This isn't something you can ignore and "let nature take care of."

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Censorship has always been used as a tool to subjugate minority ideas, regardless of validity.  Used to delegitimize certain points of view.  This kind of arbitary censorship will always be an injustice to humanity; it tries to brush ideas under the rug.  It forces the adoption of certain mainstream views, making it impossible to teach, learn, or speak about ideas that the censors disagree with.  This will always be unethical.

#6    redhen

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 02:10 PM

View PostWyrdlight, on 17 August 2010 - 10:25 AM, said:

Species will go extinct, if they have not evolved/adapted sufficuantly.

Correct. But they will also go extinct when humans over-fish/hunt them, or destroy their habitat.

Quote

I am not saying we should go out of our way to kill them off, but i dont think we should go to silly lengths to save them.

The Panda for example, is an evolutionary dead end, it has no use, no purpose, it is fragile, inneficiant the only reason we invest so much effort into keeping it alive is because it looks cute.

Keystone species should be saved, the others are not so important in my opinion.

When you say the Panda bear "has no use, no purpose", you're taking an anthropomorphic world view. It's also the Biblical view, that every species has value only in its relationship with homo sapiens. Species by themselves have no intrinsic worth.

This is a narrow-minded, utilitarian view. Biodiversity is one the keys to a healthy planet.
The destruction of other species is like sawing off the tree branch you're sitting on.

You are correct though in prioritizing endangered keystone species (top predators), and by saving them, you are saving other species, whether they are important in your opinion or not.



http://www.well.com/...extinction.html


#7    Druidus-Logos

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 02:13 PM

View Postredhen, on 17 August 2010 - 02:10 PM, said:

Correct. But they will also go extinct when humans over-fish/hunt them, or destroy their habitat.



When you say the Panda bear "has no use, no purpose", you're taking an anthropomorphic world view. It's also the Biblical view, that every species has value only in its relationship with homo sapiens. Species by themselves have no intrinsic worth.

This is a narrow-minded, utilitarian view. Biodiversity is one the keys to a healthy planet.
The destruction of other species is like sawing off the tree branch you're sitting on.

You are correct though in prioritizing endangered keystone species (top predators), and by saving them, you are saving other species, whether they are important in your opinion or not.



http://www.well.com/...extinction.html

Very good post, great info, thanks.

~I am a dark melody of chaos and order, a shadowed figure painted upon the heavens of dusk.~
Censorship has always been used as a tool to subjugate minority ideas, regardless of validity.  Used to delegitimize certain points of view.  This kind of arbitary censorship will always be an injustice to humanity; it tries to brush ideas under the rug.  It forces the adoption of certain mainstream views, making it impossible to teach, learn, or speak about ideas that the censors disagree with.  This will always be unethical.

#8    Wyrdlight

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 04:18 PM

View Postredhen, on 17 August 2010 - 02:10 PM, said:

Correct. But they will also go extinct when humans over-fish/hunt them, or destroy their habitat.


You are correct though in prioritizing endangered keystone species (top predators), and by saving them, you are saving other species, whether they are important in your opinion or not.



The Tiger kills the deer, in some cases, the tiger may kill all the deer in a region.  They have evolved superiour intelligence/ability and as a result may make another species extinct.

Humans have evolved to the point hwere we can make other species extinct, it may not be clever or advisable but its true.  Anything we do is a natural process, there is no "natural world/Human world" divide.

Keystone species are not only top predators, in fact most are not top predators.

Bees.
Ants.
Worms.
Various Plants and Fungi.
A large range of bacteria and micro-organisms.

They are those species around which an ecosystem revolves.  That, if removed would cause the system to fail or falter/change its make-up/function.

Regarding the video.

"Biodiverstiy has been stable for millions of years" - Not really thier have been numerous mass extinctions, look up "The Great Dying" life bounced back, with vigour.  It always will, long after we as a speices are dust and echoes.

Edited by Wyrdlight, 17 August 2010 - 04:37 PM.


#9    redhen

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 04:39 PM

View PostWyrdlight, on 17 August 2010 - 04:18 PM, said:

Humans have evolved to the point hwere we can make other species extinct, it may not be clever or advisable but its true.  Anything we do is a natural process, there is no "natural world/Human world" divide.

That's true in theory, but many insurance adjusters and politicians would argue that war is not a "natural disaster".

Quote

Keystone species are not only top predators, in fact most are not top predators.
They are those species around which an ecosystem revolves.  That, if removed would cause the system to fail or falter/change its make-up/function.

Right, I used top predators because they are usually a good indicator of the health of an ecosystem.


#10    Druidus-Logos

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 04:40 PM

View PostWyrdlight, on 17 August 2010 - 04:18 PM, said:

The Tiger kills the deer, in some cases, the tiger may kill all the deer in a region.  They have evolved superiour intelligence/ability and as a result may make another species extinct.

Humans have evolved to the point hwere we can make other species extinct, it may not be clever or advisable but its true.  Anything we do is a natural process, there is no "natural world/Human world" divide.

Keystone species are not only top predators, in fact most are not top predators.

Bees.
Ants.
Worms.
Various Plants and Fungi.
A large range of bacteria and micro-organisms.

They are those species around which an ecosystem revolves.  That, if removed would cause the system to fail or falter/change its make-up/function.

That's a weak argument due to the fundamental nature of our technology.  We've stepped outside any semblance of true natural selection.  We have come to the point when we would be compete idiots, hardly worthy of "sentient" status, if we did not attempt to start bailing out the sinking ship that is our planet.  This is MASS-EXTINCTION.  We've stepped out for a while, but do you really think we're going to survive when species collapse globally (at least in any meaningful way)?

This is literally worse than the extinction of all the dinosaurs, which may have happened in a geological instant.  Species are dying faster than that.  And it IS because of us.  It took millions of years for recovery after the saurian extinction event, and it still isn't "fully" recovered.  Do you want for our children to go through that hell?  Punishment by one lazy and self-centred generation that just didn't give a **** about anything or anyone else, including their descendants?  That's a worse punishment by far than any we've ever seen.  Millions of years of hardship and struggle.  And it is quite likely if we change nothing.  Even Dr. Hawking only gives us a hundred years if we don't do SOMETHING.

Is it intelligent behaviour to destroy natural capital in such a way?  Hardly.  We should be preserving it, with a goal of maintenence and true sustainability.

Letting it all die is the way to prove to nature that we were never worthy of our sentience in the first place.  It's a very self-serving argument to say that we can do whatever we want to other species because that's the way its always been.  We've risen above that; we're not so low.  There comes a point in a developing intelligent species' life when it must rise above such original behaviour in order to manifest a far more wondrous and expansive destiny.

Even if you truly believe what you've said, we should still keep them around because they benefit us.  They, their chemistry, their DNA, all is useful to us.  Would you throw this away for convenience?  Simply to avoid having to deal with the problem, because it is bothersome and morally turbulent?  

If so, I don't see how you can claim to be any different from the hunting cat or the eagle.  You're no better.  You're the same.  A pale imitation of what a truly practicing sentient could achieve.  A lazy pre-sentient really, not knowing that he/she is slowly destroying their future, one species at a time, one collection of genetic resources at any moment wiped from the Earth, and not just for a while, forever.  Never to come again, never to be seen, enjoyed, used, domesticated, taught, and, for some, perhaps to one day even be uplifted to a status similar to our own.

Would you see it the same way if you were a weaker species and had no way to survive against (just for example) advanced aliens from another planet who thought it great sport to travel here to hunt us as.  Suppose you were pre-sentient, not yet as you are?  Would you still value your existence and want to maintain and continue it?  Would you be fine with the casual termination of your species?  Afterall, that's the way it goes in nature you know.  Some die, some live.  Shouldn't that then apply to us?  

Logically, it should, and it does.  But we have DOMINATED the Earth.  Simply reamed it.  We are only in danger of extinction if we continue this abuse.  The way to continue on is clear.  It is difficult.  We will struggle.  But we must preserve our biosphere the same way we preserve ourselves.  It is under threat directly (unlike us), and, indirectly, we are.  That's the way of it.  Preserving AS MANY other species as we CAN is self-preservation for our species at this moment

Edited by Druidus-Logos, 17 August 2010 - 04:46 PM.

~I am a dark melody of chaos and order, a shadowed figure painted upon the heavens of dusk.~
Censorship has always been used as a tool to subjugate minority ideas, regardless of validity.  Used to delegitimize certain points of view.  This kind of arbitary censorship will always be an injustice to humanity; it tries to brush ideas under the rug.  It forces the adoption of certain mainstream views, making it impossible to teach, learn, or speak about ideas that the censors disagree with.  This will always be unethical.

#11    Druidus-Logos

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 04:43 PM

Quote

That's true in theory, but many insurance adjusters and politicians would argue that war is not a "natural disaster".


Exactly.  The point is that we have reached a time when we know better than to foul our own beds or crap in the bathwater.  Why do we still do it to our larger homes?

Quite right about top predators, too.  Very important.

~I am a dark melody of chaos and order, a shadowed figure painted upon the heavens of dusk.~
Censorship has always been used as a tool to subjugate minority ideas, regardless of validity.  Used to delegitimize certain points of view.  This kind of arbitary censorship will always be an injustice to humanity; it tries to brush ideas under the rug.  It forces the adoption of certain mainstream views, making it impossible to teach, learn, or speak about ideas that the censors disagree with.  This will always be unethical.

#12    Wyrdlight

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 04:49 PM

View PostDruidus-Logos, on 17 August 2010 - 04:40 PM, said:

That's a weak argument due to the fundamental nature of our technology.  We've stepped outside any semblance of true natural selection.  We have come to the point when we would be compete idiots, hardly worthy of "sentient" status, if we did not attempt to start bailing out the sinking ship that is our planet.  This is MASS-EXTINCTION.  We've stepped out for a while, but do you really think we're going to survive when species collapse globally (at least in any meaningful way)?

This is literally worse than the extinction of all the dinosaurs, which may have happened in a geological instant.  Species are dying faster than that.  And it IS because of us.

Is it intelligent behaviour to destroy natural capital in such a way?  Hardly.  We should be preserving it, with a goal of maintenence and true sustainability.

Letting it all die is the way to prove to nature that we were never worthy of our sentience in the first place.  It's a very self-serving argument to say that we can do whatever we want to other species because that's the way its always been.  We've risen above that; we're not so low.  There comes a point in a developing intelligent species' life when it must rise above such original behaviour in order to manifest a far more wondrous and expansive destiny.

Even if you truly believe what you've said, we should still keep them around because they benefit us.  They, their chemistry, their DNA, all is useful to us.  Would you throw this away for convenience?  Simply to avoid having to deal with the problem, because it is bothersome and morally turbulent?  

If so, I don't see how you can claim to be any different from the hunting cat or the eagle.  You're no better.  You're the same.  A pale imitation of what a truly practicing sentient could achieve.  A lazy pre-sentient really, not knowing that he/she is slowly destroying their future, one species at a time, one collection of genetic resources at any moment wiped from the Earth, and not just for a while, forever.  Never to come again, never to be seen, enjoyed, used, domesticated, taught, and, for some, perhaps to one day even be uplifted to a status similar to our own.

Would you see it the same way if you were a weaker species and had no way to survive against (just for example) advanced aliens from another planet who thought it great sport to travel here to hunt us as.  Suppose you were pre-sentient, not yet as you are?  Would you still value your existence and want to maintain and continue it?  Would you be fine with the casual termination of your species?  Afterall, that's the way it goes in nature you know.  Some die, some live.  Shouldn't that then apply to us?  

Logically, it should, and it does.  But we have DOMINATED the Earth.  Simply reamed it.  We are only in danger of extinction if we continue this abuse.  The way to continue on is clear.  It is difficult.  We will struggle.  But we must preserve our biosphere the same way we preserve ourselves.  It is under threat directly (unlike us), and, indirectly, we are.  That's the way of it.  Preserving AS MANY other species as we CAN is self-preservation for our species at this moment


But preserving things in a snap shot of a certain time/place you are not adhering to "natural proccessess".

The world changes, it moves, speices die and evolve and change, you cant just say "STOP!" we will save them all, or even some of them, its like keeping a brain dead person alive, centruies after they are, to all intents a purposes dead.  The world would become a giant museum with hundreds of preserved species.  The world is not a museum, its the world.

I dont think its a bad theory, we have evolved to use our surroundings (technology) thus anything we do is a natraul process, simple.  Technology is merely a facet of our evolution.

If we as a speices get wiped out by our own stupidity then we deserve it, i am NOT saying that we should purge the earth of all non-human species just that extinction is inevitable and you CANT stop it, and in some cases, its a waste of effort and resources to try.


#13    Druidus-Logos

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 04:57 PM

View PostWyrdlight, on 17 August 2010 - 04:49 PM, said:

But preserving things in a snap shot of a certain time/place you are not adhering to "natural proccessess".

The world changes, it moves, speices die and evolve and change, you cant just say "STOP!" we will save them all, or even some of them, its like keeping a brain dead person alive, centruies after they are, to all intents a purposes dead.  The world would become a giant museum with hundreds of preserved species.  The world is not a museum, its the world.

Quite right.  Butare you arguing that we haven't grossl inflated the background extinction rate, beyond anything sensible?  I'm not advocating save all species.  I think we should attempt to save as many as possible from OUR influence though.  Let nature do it's thing, let's stop pilfering from her and stick with what we've taken already.  We've got to quit sometime.  Earth IS finite.  It cannot last forever.

Quote

I dont think its a bad theory, we have evolved to use our surroundings (technology) thus anything we do is a natraul process, simple.  Technology is merely a facet of our evolution.

True, you're right.  But you see, we've done more than extend our feral selves.  We've built moral and ethical ground.  Ground that actually promotes our future meaningful existence.

Quote

If we as a speices get wiped out by our own stupidity then we deserve it, i am NOT saying that we should purge the earth of all non-human species just that extinction is inevitable and you CANT stop it, and in some cases, its a waste of effort and resources to try.

I can partially agree.  You say that we would deserve it.  And I agree.  But don't you think, then, that we should try to curtail our ignorance?  Not be so willful and thus stupid with it?  Shouldn't we preserve what we might need?

If we determine a species would go extinct even without us, or with a mere tribal simulated version of us, fine, let it go.  If WE are destroying it, we should try to mitigate this.  The point is that the universe is not made for us.  We survive out of luck; chance and evolution.  We should do everything we can to stack the odds in our favour, don't you agree?

~I am a dark melody of chaos and order, a shadowed figure painted upon the heavens of dusk.~
Censorship has always been used as a tool to subjugate minority ideas, regardless of validity.  Used to delegitimize certain points of view.  This kind of arbitary censorship will always be an injustice to humanity; it tries to brush ideas under the rug.  It forces the adoption of certain mainstream views, making it impossible to teach, learn, or speak about ideas that the censors disagree with.  This will always be unethical.

#14    Wyrdlight

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 05:31 PM

View PostDruidus-Logos, on 17 August 2010 - 04:57 PM, said:

Quite right.  Butare you arguing that we haven't grossl inflated the background extinction rate, beyond anything sensible?  I'm not advocating save all species.  I think we should attempt to save as many as possible from OUR influence though.  Let nature do it's thing, let's stop pilfering from her and stick with what we've taken already.  We've got to quit sometime.  Earth IS finite.  It cannot last forever.



True, you're right.  But you see, we've done more than extend our feral selves.  We've built moral and ethical ground.  Ground that actually promotes our future meaningful existence.



I can partially agree.  You say that we would deserve it.  And I agree.  But don't you think, then, that we should try to curtail our ignorance?  Not be so willful and thus stupid with it?  Shouldn't we preserve what we might need?

If we determine a species would go extinct even without us, or with a mere tribal simulated version of us, fine, let it go.  If WE are destroying it, we should try to mitigate this.  The point is that the universe is not made for us.  We survive out of luck; chance and evolution.  We should do everything we can to stack the odds in our favour, don't you agree?

I think prehaps I am a little too cold and logical regarding extinction etc, i dont see any differeance between a world of forests and oceans and teeming life and a world of radioactive wastes dotted with the burnt out shells of cities, with rats a roaches being the main speices.

Both are the same, both are alive the only differance is the general environment and the number of species.

People look at things with views clouded with emotion, they personify the earth/nature as you have, they save or priorotise saving certain speices based on how cute they instead of how useful/important they are, they use colourful words like "Rape" of natural resources "Slaughter" of certain species.  Its surperflous and pointless.  We are the dominant species, and can do as we please, it may be another species comes from outer space and takes that power away, but until they do, we make the choices.  Ignorance is a basic state that everyone exists in, everyone is ignorant about somthing, and most of the things "we might need" we will preserve.

The Panda, we dont need, the Tiger, we dont need, the Bottle-nose we dont need etc etc.

Nesescity is the mother of invention, thus if we need it, we will find a way to keep it.

Hell in 20 years we will be able to clone/grow extinct animals from thier DNA, extinction would not then matter one IOTA, we could simple raise them again and again.


#15    redhen

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Posted 17 August 2010 - 09:54 PM

View PostWyrdlight, on 17 August 2010 - 05:31 PM, said:

I think prehaps I am a little too cold and logical regarding extinction etc, i dont see any differeance between a world of forests and oceans and teeming life and a world of radioactive wastes dotted with the burnt out shells of cities, with rats a roaches being the main speices.

So you would be ok with a nuclear holocaust? Can I ask how old you are?

Quote

People look at things with views clouded with emotion, they personify the earth/nature as you have, they save or priorotise saving certain speices based on how cute they instead of how useful/important they are, they use colourful words like "Rape" of natural resources "Slaughter" of certain species.

I wondered how it would take before someone accused me of being emotional/sentimental. This not an aesthetic argument ( I like apples, Bob likes grapes), in which there is in fact nothing to argue. This is a philosophical moral argument.


Quote

Its surperflous and pointless.  We are the dominant species, and can do as we please, it may be another species comes from outer space and takes that power away, but until they do, we make the choices.

So Might makes Right? If that's the case, then why did so many people over the millennium rise up and fight against tyranny? http://en.wikipedia....iki/Magna_Carta
And God help you if more powerful aliens land and start harvesting humans for food, because you will have no moral argument against it.

Quote

Ignorance is a basic state that everyone exists in, everyone is ignorant about somthing, and most of the things "we might need" we will preserve.

Doubtful. We have no idea how many undiscovered species might exist in the Amazon that may hold a cure for cancer.

Quote

The Panda, we dont need, the Tiger, we dont need, the Bottle-nose we dont need etc etc.

These beings all play a role in their environments. Their demise will surely have some effects.

Quote

Nesescity is the mother of invention, thus if we need it, we will find a way to keep it.

Hell in 20 years we will be able to clone/grow extinct animals from thier DNA, extinction would not then matter one IOTA, we could simple raise them again and again.

Yeah, Technology will save the planet. Sure it will, just look at all the ways in which it has benefited the planet.

/sarcasm off





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