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where did the "sumerians" come from?


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#121    SlimJim22

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 07:47 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 31 August 2010 - 06:31 PM, said:

Actual Sumerian DNA?! Short answer: Nope, not currently.

cormac

What of Buxton, Rice and Penniman? Have they been discredited over the years or are they still regarded well enough.

One may then look for similarities between Sumerian and Austric languages. This study has in fact been already done and the consensus is a resounding, yes. The austric languages are indeed similar to ancient Sumerian. The similarities are so numerous and clear that they are beyond doubt or a result of any chance coincidence. (The Austric Origin of the Sumerian Language, Language Form, vol. 22, no.1-2, Jan.-Dec. 1996.)

Therefore now it may be said with confidence that ancient Sumerian is not a linguistic isolate. It belongs to the australoid/ austric group of languages. They belong to this group because the ancient tribal people of Indian west coast also belonged to the same group of people, and it is from here that they must have migrated to Mesopotamia. Both the Australoid and Austric type are found in India. There are clear reasons to rule out any other location for the Sumerian migration: Western India is geographically close to Southern Mesopotamia as compared to south East Asia and Australia and there are no know instances of civilization east of the Indus valley around five thousand years ago. Such evidence has been found in the Indus valley.

The second study concerns physical examination of Sumerian skulls. Buxton and Rice have found that of 26 Sumerian crania they examined 22 were Australoid or Austrics. Further According to Penniman who studied skulls from other Sumerian sites, the Australoid Eurafrican, Austric and Armenoid were the "racial" types associated with the Sumerians. Here is Penniman's description of the Austric type found at Sumer:

"These people are of medium stature, with complexion and hair like those of the Eurafrican, to which race they are allied with dark eyes, and oval faces, broad noses, rather feeble jaws, and slight sinewy bodies."


http://ezinearticles...rians&id=311587

Good to have your informed opinion on the subject Jaylemurph.  :)

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#122    cormac mac airt

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 08:04 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 31 August 2010 - 06:31 PM, said:

Actual Sumerian DNA?! Short answer: Nope, not currently.

Too late to edit, but I'd like to add that the most recent DNA testing I'm aware of suggests that the Iraqi people themselves are predominantly mtDNA Haplogroup H and Y-Chromosome Haplogroup J which are both native to the Middle East/Arabian Peninsula area. Nothing, however, to show a specific connection with the ancient Sumerians.

Information taken from the article: Y-chromosome and mtDNA polymorphisms in Iraq, a crossroad of the early human dispersal and of post-Neolithic migrations by N. Al-Zahery, O. Semino, G. Benuzzi, C. Magri, G. Passarino, A. Torroni, and A.S. Santachiara-Benerecetti; Received 29 May 2002; revised 11 December 2002

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 31 August 2010 - 08:33 PM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#123    cormac mac airt

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 08:32 PM

Quote

What of Buxton, Rice and Penniman? Have they been discredited over the years or are they still regarded well enough.

I don't know of anyone who takes them seriously, other than fringe proponents. They neglected to take anything else into account, centering solely on the shape of one's skull. That's about as useless as phrenology, IMO.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#124    SlimJim22

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 08:55 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 31 August 2010 - 08:32 PM, said:

I don't know of anyone who takes them seriously, other than fringe proponents. They neglected to take anything else into account, centering solely on the shape of one's skull. That's about as useless as phrenology, IMO.

cormac

Fair enough. Shame they didn't have any usable dna from their finds. How's about a connection with an Austric group based on the coast of the Indus valley and south east Asia, possibly Sundaland related?

They were early sailors and it is possible that they even had ties as far as the Red sea. I do think there was a strong influence from the caucasus region but I am unsure of Ara as meaning pale. It is possible but if it comes from 'shining' then that is quite a leap in interpretation. However, the history of India does imply a coexistence of Indo-europeans and Dravidians. What's the consensus on this again?

http://asiapacificun.../pkm/austro.htm

http://asiapacificun...pkm/austric.htm

http://asiapacificun...m/pkm/sumer.htm

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#125    Abramelin

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 09:09 PM

View Postjimmylives, on 31 August 2010 - 06:32 PM, said:

Our ethnic affinity with the Sumerians is may be questionable but the Sumerian-Hungarian etymological connection regarding the two languages is by all means valid. Here are some very interesting references:

among the Hungarian prime words are many which have the same backwards and same or relating meanings.: father, bride, puppets, etc ... There are also many, not entirely synonymous but have similar meanings "li-beg <-> bil-leg", sue - replikáz (replica of this in Latin), meadow - space, etc ...
They are very important because they demonstrate incontrovertible that mahgar-Sumerian origin. This phenomenon is the more thousand years old interesting byproduct of our culture which is the reading of ancient cuneiform-, and runic-writing.
An illustrative example: Sumerian-DU-LI = sing, inverse version: LI-DU = sing (from this example, the German Lied = song)

Some of our Prime Words which conversely have the same or related meanings

Posted Image
Parisian Sorbonne linguists were looking for the common ancestral roots of words i.e. etymons in the languages of the world. On this basis it was found that:
Posted Image
Today's English 4%
Latin 5%
Hebrew 5%
Pacific-languages 7%
India mundo-khol 9%
Tibetan, Sanskrit 12%
primal-Turkish, Turkmen 26%
Today, 68% of the Hungarian language contains ancestor etymons

The Hungarian language is a direct connection with Sumerian. It has lived and existed long before as the Hungarian nation, precisely as in the Carpathian Basin-Hungarian empire was home to people named to the Hungarians. The Hungarian prime language much, much older. In fact also in this area (the Carpathian Basin) for a long time people have lived in Hungarian culture, when the present outstanding contemporary Hungarian ancestors founded the Hungarian state, led by Prince Arpad arrived here. The language of ancient folks living on an area the many thousands of years retained the original affinity. The lingual fossils are in front of us and between us, they only must be recognised and solved.

Brief of Sumarian-Hungarian dictionary

(Even if you don't understand the words, you can see the many similarities)
Posted Image
My link

I hope it wasn't so much boring ...


That was an interesting read, jimmylives.


But was Hungary ever frozen over to your knowledge??

Because that is is what I read online, that the Sumerians fled their country when it got frozen all over.


#126    cormac mac airt

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 09:23 PM

Quote

How's about a connection with an Austric group based on the coast of the Indus valley and south east Asia, possibly Sundaland related?

Again, Jaylemurph would probably be a better choice in the 'language' department, but by definition "Austro-Asiatic" deals with the EASTERN Indian sub-continent and Southeast Asia. Therefore, leaving out any relevance to central, southern or western India and not even remotely relevant to a discussion of Dravidians or the IVC, IMO. Not even apples and oranges, more like a comparison of apples and grapes.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#127    cormac mac airt

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 09:26 PM

Quote

Because that is is what I read online, that the Sumerians fled their country when it got frozen all over.

And you found this in what specifically Sumerian text?

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#128    Abramelin

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 09:41 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 31 August 2010 - 09:26 PM, said:

And you found this in what specifically Sumerian text?

cormac

That is my problem: I remember  I read it somewhere, and then SlimJim posted about the Barton Tablets, but that got me nothing at all.

So I can't tell you what Sumerian text I am talking about. I can only tell you that I once read it online.

But I realize, that is not the answer you asked for.


Mea Culpa.


#129    SlimJim22

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 09:53 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 31 August 2010 - 09:23 PM, said:

Again, Jaylemurph would probably be a better choice in the 'language' department, but by definition "Austro-Asiatic" deals with the EASTERN Indian sub-continent and Southeast Asia. Therefore, leaving out any relevance to central, southern or western India and not even remotely relevant to a discussion of Dravidians or the IVC, IMO. Not even apples and oranges, more like a comparison of apples and grapes.

cormac

Apples and grapes are closer that apples and oranges. If you ferment them long enough they'll get you trashed. What d'ya get if ya ferment oranges?

I like apples and grapes and Dravidians and Austroasians, maybe they got along to but I will need a lot more to go on than that. Still it hasn't stopped me trying before albeit in vain.

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#130    cormac mac airt

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 10:01 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 31 August 2010 - 09:53 PM, said:

Apples and grapes are closer that apples and oranges. If you ferment them long enough they'll get you trashed. What d'ya get if ya ferment oranges?

I like apples and grapes and Dravidians and Austroasians, maybe they got along to but I will need a lot more to go on than that. Still it hasn't stopped me trying before albeit in vain.

So you're the reason Abramelin's drunk alot, eh? Damn Welshmen will do anything to slide an idea by. :lol:

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#131    The_Spartan

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 10:18 PM

View Postjimmylives, on 31 August 2010 - 06:32 PM, said:

Our ethnic affinity with the Sumerians is may be questionable but the Sumerian-Hungarian etymological connection regarding the two languages is by all means valid. Here are some very interesting references:

..............
My link

I hope it wasn't so much boring ...

From the very Wikipedia Link

Quote

    * For many years (from 1869), it was a matter of dispute whether Hungarian was a Finno-Ugric/Uralic language, or was more closely related to the Turkic languages, a controversy known as the "Ugric-Turkish war", or whether indeed both the Uralic and the Turkic families formed part of a superfamily of "Ural-Altaic languages". Hungarians did absorb some Turkic influences during several centuries of co-habitation. For example, it appears that the Hungarians learned animal breeding techniques from the Turkic Chuvash, as a high proportion of words specific to agriculture and livestock are of Chuvash origin. There was also a strong Chuvash influence in burial customs. Furthermore, all Ugric languages, not just Hungarian, have Turkic loanwords related to horse riding. Nonetheless, the science of linguistics shows that the basic wordstock and morphological patterns of the Hungarian language are solidly based on a Uralic heritage.[citation needed]
    * A fringe theory that is well-known is that the Hungarian language is a descendant of Sumerian. Some nationalist linguists and historians (like Ida Bobula, Ferenc Badiny Jós, dr Tibor Baráth and others) have published this theory.[20] There are some artifacts which they claim support this view (like the Tartaria tablets). Mainstream linguists reject the Sumerian theory as pseudoscience.
    * Hungarian has often been claimed to be related to Hunnish, since Hungarian legends and histories show close ties between the two peoples; also, the name Hunor is preserved in legends and (along with a few Hunnic-origin names, such as Attila) is still used as a given name in Hungary. Many people share the belief that the Székelys, a Hungarian ethnic group living in Romania, are descended from the Huns. However, the link with Hunnish has no linguistic foundation since most linguists consider the Hunnic language to be part of the Turkic language family.

There have been attempts, dismissed by mainstream linguists, to show that Hungarian is related to other languages including Hebrew, Egyptian, Etruscan, Basque, Persian, Pelasgian, Greek, Chinese, Sanskrit, English, Tibetan, Magar, Quechua, Armenian, Japanese and at least 42 other Asian, European and even American languages.[21]


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#132    The_Spartan

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 10:38 PM

The origin of Sumerians..is a topic thats bothering me now. I have contacted archaeologists/anthropologists over the net to see if they could provide some sorts of answers.

When i was searching "Origin of Sumer" i cam across one of the most hilarious translations. Its by Edo Nyland, some of you might have heard of him.

His page is Orign of Sumerian
His theories are summarised by actual faculty labelling them contrevorsial..at Summary of Nyland's Theories/Hypothesis

His translations or attempt at pseudo-translation is so funny..here is an example

Quote

The meaning of the name "Latin" is interesting because it tells us that everybody had to memorize the invented words, whether they liked it or not:
Latin, .la-ati-in.
.la - ati - in.
ela - ati - ino
ela - atxiki gogoz - inornahi
word - to memorize - everybody
"Everybody memorize the words."

Quote

Mozes
.mo - oze - es.
amo - oze - esa
amorrazio - ozen - esan
anger - penetrating voice - to express
"He expresses his anger in a penetrating voice."

    The majority of Biblical names can be decoded by this method so let's take some simple names:
Genesis
.ge - ene - esi - is.
age - ene - esi - isa
ageri - ene - ezingehiagoko - izadi
revelation - my - supreme - creation
"Supreme revelation of creation."
Revelation
.re - ebe - ela - ati - on.
are - ebe - ela - ati - one
arrerosle - ebertar - ela - atxikimendu - oneste
redeemer - Hebrew - story - faithfulness - blessing
"Our Hebrew Redeemer's (Jesus's) story of faithfulness and blessing."
Sarah
.sa - ara - ah.
asa - ara - aha
asaba - arauzale - ahaidego
ancestor - lawful - kinship/tribe
"Lawful ancestor of the tribe."
Zion
.zi - on.
azi - one
azitoki - onetsi
place where I grew up - to bless
"Bless the place where I grew up."
Moab
.mo - ab.
umo - aba
umoretxar - abade
bad tempered - priest
"Bad tempered priest."
Bethlehem
.be - et. - .h. - .le _ he - em.
abe - eto - oha - ale _ he - emo
abelaska - etorberri - ohartzaile - alegera _ heben - emoi
manger - newborn - observer/wise man - rejoicing/glorifying _ here - gift
"The newborn is in the manger. The wise men are here glorifying with gifts."

Have some laughs.

Edited by The Spartan, 31 August 2010 - 10:40 PM.

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#133    Harte

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 12:34 AM

View PostSlimJim22, on 31 August 2010 - 09:53 PM, said:

Apples and grapes are closer that apples and oranges. If you ferment them long enough they'll get you trashed. What d'ya get if ya ferment oranges?

Trashed - with a fresh scent.

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#134    Harte

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 12:36 AM

Spartan,

That was hilarious.  :tu:

He must do his "research" here at U-M!
LOL

Harte

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Anybody like Coleridge?

#135    jaylemurph

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Posted 01 September 2010 - 12:57 AM

Wow, Spartan. Mr Nyland (uhhh, I'm going out on a limb and assume it's "Mr" and not "Doctor" or "Professor") is at once hilarious and depressing. Kind of like Glenn Beck.

--Jaylemurph

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Posted Image

Deeply venial




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