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where did the "sumerians" come from?


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#31    DieChecker

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 09:47 PM

View PostAus Der Box Skeptisch, on 25 August 2010 - 01:41 AM, said:

I have read a cornucopia of information regarding the sumerians. Yet, one glaring question remains for me. "Where did they come from? They literally had their own language that didn't seem to relate to any know speech from the area. It seemed like cuneiform was an already established form of writing for them. While most of their advances with farming and such simply came with time and the first "civilization" grew from what they had started I ask you, how were they so individualized and advanced at that time?
Haven't you seen that famous documentry... Battlestar Galactica? The final episode shows where all the advanced technology in the world came from... space colonists.  :w00t:

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#32    SlimJim22

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 10:11 PM

View PostEssan, on 26 August 2010 - 08:37 PM, said:

Whist trading with the Vinca culture (or with others who in turn traded with others who in turn traded with the Vinca cuture) is possible and may have led to a sharing of ideas, I see no reason to suppose peoples from Europe would have migrated to the Middle East just as the Middle East was turning into a desert .....  If anything the opposite is more likely.   Maybe the Vinca culture emerged from Ubaidians migrating north to more temperate climes?

Makes sense. I think the most densely populated area of Sumer were further south and the rivers and sea would have been of prime importance as evidenced at Eridu. Europe was populated by farmers in the main so I think we can assume that Sumer imported a lot of grain and such things.

http://www.rastko.rs.../vinca_eng.html

The presence of the Vinca culture shows some of the most advanced ceramics I have seen. You add the early script from post Black sea flood and it may give some basis for the Enuma Elish originating there and surviving through oral traditions or on other tablets of Vinca script that got destroyed.

As has been pointed out to me previously Sumer was not a unified culture as such but had city states that occasionally warred with one another. The need of weapons could have led to trade being extended outwards great distances and this could have added to the mixtures of cultures and cults.

Eridu was the city state of Enki and capital during the Ubaid period and is on the south coast. It is feasable that there were migrants coming from south east Asia and even Australasia and this is why Enki's symbol was the serpent. Not to mention Botswanaa the home of the serpent or Enki cult, geesh that guy has been around along time. Interesting that the snake cult never made much ground in the north. The question is whether the Vinca and other European cultures were serpent cults to. I don't think so because they seem to be more connected to bee godesses or basic fertility godesses.

Into the Uruk period this is when I think Enlil, Marduk and Nergal of the northern tribes began to encroach upon Sumer. They had always been there but the cults now entered the ascendancy perhaps. This may have meant that Sumer's genetic population began to become more caucasoid or armanoid, more white guys came to bring the smackdown on the snake cults of the south and east.

Edited by SlimJim22, 26 August 2010 - 10:12 PM.

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#33    PersonFromPorlock

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Posted 26 August 2010 - 11:15 PM

View PostHarte, on 26 August 2010 - 12:08 PM, said:

I'm not that familiar with Beech, but as far as I can tell, that's not likely to be Elm.

Elm leaves are serrated.  Or at least the Elms I've seen were.

Harte

Fair enough, my eyesight's not all that great any more and I threw in 'elm' at the last moment. Probably somebody did their dissertation on what-kind-and-where-from and it's now buried in a department library somewhere.

But the look is distinctly 'temperate forest'.


#34    lightly

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 12:36 AM

There are variations of leaves of even the same types of trees .   Here in N. Michigan.. we have several different looking maples and oaks... which also vary in other states and countries.  Anyway.. ,if we're playing name that leaf,.. my woodland raised eyeballs would say  those leaves look like they might be a type of birch, because of the general shape and the little long point on the tip.        

   *

Edited by lightly, 27 August 2010 - 12:59 AM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#35    Swede

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 01:51 AM

View Postlightly, on 27 August 2010 - 12:36 AM, said:

There are variations of leaves of even the same types of trees .   Here in N. Michigan.. we have several different looking maples and oaks... which also vary in other states and countries.  Anyway.. ,if we're playing name that leaf,.. my woodland raised eyeballs would say  those leaves look like they might be a type of birch, because of the general shape and the little long point on the tip.        

   *

Hi lightly - Chuckle. It would appear that you did a quick edit before I could respond. None the less, you might the following to be of interest. The family Cupressacea is actually quite widespread. Yes, only Wiki, but should suffice for the moment.

http://en.wikipedia....ia_sempervirens

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Cupressaceae

As to the specific leaf depicted, tough to tell from photo. Deciduous, yes. Family Betula? Possible. Many potential problems to I.D. "Artists" depiction? Accurate detail? Geographic distribution (within time-frame of origin)?, etc.

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#36    lightly

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 02:20 AM

View PostSwede, on 27 August 2010 - 01:51 AM, said:

Hi lightly - Chuckle. It would appear that you did a quick edit before I could respond. None the less, you might the following to be of interest. The family Cupressacea is actually quite widespread. Yes, only Wiki, but should suffice for the moment.

http://en.wikipedia....ia_sempervirens

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Cupressaceae

As to the specific leaf depicted, tough to tell from photo. Deciduous, yes. Family Betula? Possible. Many potential problems to I.D. "Artists" depiction? Accurate detail? Geographic distribution (within time-frame of origin)?, etc.

.

Hiya Swede ! ,  lol, you caught me!* ..   yup, i removed my comment about 'redwood' trees only growing in N.W. coastal U.S.A.  and Japan. Something i had heard .. but was not sure of.   Thanks for the info on where 'they' do  grow.
   As for the leaf depicted in the Artist's rendering of the Sumerian headdress ...   It resembles birch leaves from this area...  which is quite meaningless i'm sure .    :blush:  .  So.. Your an expert on leaves too!*!*!*!*   why am i not very surprised!?    Your an amazing fellow Swede. (hope your work ,and play, is going well)

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#37    Harte

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 03:20 AM

I agree with Lightly here.  Swede is fantastic - no other way to put it.

Thought I had him there when he mentioned Redwoods.  The leaves on the headdress certainly don't look to be from a conifer.

Then I realized it had been something Lightly edited out.

Dang.  You can't beat Swede.  :no:

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#38    TheSearcher

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 07:23 AM

View PostHarte, on 27 August 2010 - 03:20 AM, said:

I agree with Lightly here.  Swede is fantastic - no other way to put it.

Thought I had him there when he mentioned Redwoods.  The leaves on the headdress certainly don't look to be from a conifer.

Then I realized it had been something Lightly edited out.

Dang.  You can't beat Swede.  :no:

Harte

Of course you could beat him...........with a dictionary over the head should do nicely ......  :P

On a more serious note, it is true that Swede is a well of information. I know I learn a lot from his posts.
And I agree with you Harte, the leaves on the headdress don't look like they are from a conifer at all. I'm still unsure as to what tree it could be though.

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#39    Leonardo

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 08:17 AM

View PostPersonFromPorlock, on 25 August 2010 - 11:35 PM, said:

This Sumerian queen's headdress is kind of interesting, though:

Attachment sumerian-headdress.jpg

Those leaves look like beech or elm leaves; not what I'd think grew on the lower Euphrates, although I could be wrong. Maybe a clue to where they came from?

Possibly not a clue for, as this article sets out, the ancient Mesopotamians were very fond of their exotica.

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#40    Oniomancer

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 02:42 PM

View PostHarte, on 27 August 2010 - 03:20 AM, said:


Thought I had him there when he mentioned Redwoods.  The leaves on the headdress certainly don't look to be from a conifer.
Maybe a really, really big conifer leaf? :rolleyes:

When in doubt, look it up:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/4200486

http://www.penn.muse...raq/?page_id=61

Edited by Oniomancer, 27 August 2010 - 02:44 PM.

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#41    Totah Dine

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 03:32 PM

I thought the general consensus was that the Sumerians came from Bahrain.

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#42    The_Spartan

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 03:43 PM

View PostTotah Dine, on 27 August 2010 - 03:32 PM, said:

I thought the general consensus was that the Sumerians came from Bahrain.

:wacko: never heard about the Sumerians originating in Bahrain.
maybe you check up on the history of Bahrain.

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#43    Harte

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 06:00 PM

View PostOniomancer, on 27 August 2010 - 02:42 PM, said:

Maybe a really, really big conifer leaf? :rolleyes:

When in doubt, look it up:

http://www.jstor.org/pss/4200486

http://www.penn.muse...raq/?page_id=61
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#44    The_Spartan

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 07:04 PM

This pdf file i found while searching is a good one.

Physical anthropology and the Sumerian problem - by Arkadiusz Sołtysiak, Department of Historical Anthropology, Institute of Archaeology, Warsaw University, Poland

While i was going through the wikipedia entry for lady puabi and did an image search for "Puabi"


Puabi's death pit & other bits
Posted Image
Posted Image


Puabi's bust looks Caucasoid.

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#45    Harte

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Posted 27 August 2010 - 07:28 PM

Caucasoid or not, her bust looks half naked.

Nice.

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