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The Trojan War


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#16    The Puzzler

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 09:19 AM

Some points:

If the Romans were the actual Trojans and the Etruscans might just be refugees, not Trojans as such, it would seem both people next to each other in Italy were in the Trojan War, so could the Trojan war actually be a local war in Latium.


The people of Latium were distinctly different to the nearby Etruscans at Veii (although both probably stemmed from the Villanovan culture) who worshipped Apollo.
The Latium people created elaborate little clay huts for cremation urns ie; the Hut of Romulus.
I'm fairly well versed in the history and the people in Latium of the time Romans took over the Etruscans and to me, there is a deep hatred built up and it ends only when the Romans finally flatten Carthage because the Phoenicians have always been allied with the Etruscans while the Greeks seem to be with the Romans.

That the Etruscans worshipped Apollo as their chief God gives them an immediate relation to Troy.

I also don't know how the ships coming back from Troy would be in the Western Mediterranean, then we have the odd Sea People's thing with them coming in from the West, as what appears to be, migrators...from the Trojan War?

The Greeks that entered the Italian peninsula and attempted to take control seem to have allied with the Latium people to become a stronger force in the end, the combined land power of the Greeks and Romans easily took over the sea power of the Etruscans and Phoenicians, who were both traders not naval ships.


It seems odd to me that Herodotus has the Tyrhenians as Trojan refugees and then a few hundred years later Virgil has Aeneus being the Trojan who has left Troy and settled in Latium producing the Roman line of Romulus.

I don't think Herodotus' account has been compromised by religious or power notions of ancestry at that time so I tend to believe him over Virgil.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#17    The_Spartan

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 09:45 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 31 August 2010 - 01:58 AM, said:

Hey Spartan, you look like the man to ask.....


Do you think the Spartans of Greece could have come over from the area called Sparda by the Persians, that is Lydia, since this is really how the myths have it, yknow, Pelops etc.

Sparda sorta gets to Spar DANs, with Danae and Perseus..and the story of the Danaans with the Achaeans could actually be a Spartan people..

Hmmmm...The answer lies at a very good depth...Be prepared if you want to hear it...Here is an example

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#18    The Puzzler

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 09:52 AM

According to Dionysius of Halicarnassus, many Roman historians (including Porcius Cato and Gaius Sempronius) regarded the origins of the Romans (descendants of the Aborigines) as Greek despite the fact that their knowledge was derived from Greek legendary accounts. The Sabines, specifically, were first mentioned in Dionysius's account for having captured by surprise the city of Lista which was regarded as the mother-city of the Aborigines.[4] Ancient historians were still debating the specific origins of the Sabines. Zenodotus of Troezen claimed that the Sabines were originally Umbrians that changed their name after being driven from the Reatine territory by the Pelasgians. However, Porcius Cato argued that the Sabines were a populace named after Sabus, the son of Sancus (a divinity of the area sometimes called Jupiter Fidius).[5] In another account mentioned in Dionysius's work, a group of Lacedaemonians fled Sparta since they regarded the laws of Lycurgus as too severe. In Italy, they founded the Spartan colony of Foronia (near the Pomentine plains) and some from that colony settled among the Sabines. According to the account, the Sabine habits of belligerence and frugality were known to have been derived from the Spartans.[6]Plutarch also states in the Life of Numa Pompilius, "Sabines, who declare themselves to be a colony of the Lacedaemonians..."

Legend of Sabine women
Main article: Rape of the Sabine Women
Legend says that the Romans abducted Sabine women to populate the newly built Rome. The resultant war ended only by the women throwing themselves and their children between the armies of their fathers and their husbands. The Rape of the Sabine Women ("rape" in this context meaning "kidnapping" rather than its modern meaning, see raptio) became a common motif in art; the women ending the war forms a less frequent but still reappearing motif.

According to Livy, after the conflict the Sabine and Rome states merged, and the Sabine king Titus Tatius jointly ruled Rome with Romulus until Tatius' death five years later. Three new centuries of Equites were introduced at Rome, including one named Tatienses, after the Sabine king.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabines

This is also known as the Battle of the Lapinths and Centaurs and is on the Parthenon. Why would a Roman story be on the Parthenon?

The taking of the Sabine women sort of sounds like when Paris took Helen for his wife, kidnapped her - it says that Sabines were Umbrians that changed their name, it also says Sabines say themsleves they were Spartans.

So, if the Sabine women were Spartans, then Helen could actually be a Sabine woman...the Sparta of Homer could be in Sabinos. Paris would be a Roman, well, they do say they are Trojans.
The Etruscans would be the refugees of this conflict.

Posted Image
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabines

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#19    The Puzzler

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 10:27 AM

I usually hide when I get to near the bottom depths...

Between your avatar, that picture and watching 300, I'm scared already.

I gather you might be a Laconophiliac Spartan?

The YouTube videos seem to be a cult hit....so THIS IS SPAAAAAAAAAAAARTAAAAAAAAAAAAA hey?

Yes, they hold the clues for sure.

Scary people indeedy.

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#20    Flashbangwollap

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 07:12 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 August 2010 - 06:29 AM, said:

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The extent of the historical basis of the Iliad has been debated for some time. Educated Greeks of the fifth century continued to accept the truth of human events depicted in the Iliad, even as philosophical scepticism was undermining faith in divine intervention in human affairs. In the time of Strabo topological disquisitions discussed the identity of sites mentioned by Homer. There was no break when Greco-Roman culture was Christianised: Eusebius of Caesarea offered universal history reduced to a timeline, in which Troy received the same historical weight as Abraham, with whom Eusebius' Chronologia began, ranking the Argives and Mycenaeans among the kingdoms ranged in vertical columns, offering biblical history on the left (verso), and secular history of the kingdoms on the right (recto).[1] Jerome's Chronicon followed Eusebius, and all the medieval chroniclers began with summaries of the universal history of Jerome.

With such authorities behind it, the historic nature of Troy and the events of the Trojan War continued to be accepted at face value by post-Roman Europeans. Geoffrey of Monmouth's pseudo-genealogy traced a Trojan origin for royal Briton descents in Historia Regum Britanniae.[2] Merovingian descent from a Trojan ancestor was embodied in a literary myth first set forth in Fredegar's chronicle (2.4, 3.2.9), to the effect that the Franks were of Trojan stock and took their name from King Francio, who had erected a new Troy on the banks of the Rhine.[3] Even before the rational Age of Enlightenment these "facts" underlying the medieval view of history were doubted by Blaise Pascal: "Homer wrote a romance, for nobody supposes that Troy and Agamemnon existed any more than the apples of the Hesperides. He had no intention to write history, but only to amuse us."[4] After the Enlightenment the stories of Troy were devalued as fables by George Grote.[5]

The discoveries made by Heinrich Schliemann at Hisarlik reopened the question in modern terms, and recent discoveries have fueled more discussion across several disciplines.[6] The events described in Homer's Iliad, even if based on historical events that preceded its composition by some 450 years, will never be completely identifiable with historical or archaeological facts, even if there was a Bronze Age city on the site now called Troy, and even if that city was destroyed by fire or war at about the same time as the time postulated for the Trojan War.

No text or artifact has been found on site itself which clearly identifies the Bronze Age site by name. This is probably due to the planification of the former hillfort during the construction of Hellenistic Ilium (Troy IX), destroying the parts that most likely contained the city archives. A single seal of a Luwian scribe has been found in one of the houses, proving the presence of written correspondence in the city, but not a single text. Our emerging understanding of the geography of the Hittite Empire makes it very likely that the site corresponds to the city of Wilusa. But even if that is accepted, it is of course no positive proof of identity with Homeric (W)ilios.


http://en.wikipedia....ty_of_the_Iliad

From Wiki page Historicity Of The Iliad.

Was it real and somewhere else maybe? England, Europe?

TROJAN BATTLEFIELD

Troy and the Trojan War location has been found and the battlefield completely reconstructed from the scattered but very detailed information given in Homer's Iliad.

Troy in England, however unbelievable, is fully explained in this amazing work which provides in depth information and evidence of all kinds including geographic and linguistic evidence as well as countless archaeological finds.

The war was not waged by Greeks and not caused by the abduction of Helen. The real reason was access to tin in Britain, a precious metal which was essential for the production of bronze, a key war material of the time.

During the second millennium BC, it was the custom of illiterate Sea Peoples migrating from western Europe to verbally pass on history, that's how the tales of the greatest war of prehistory, the Trojan War was first recorded.

Previously, Hissarlik in Turkey was thought to be the location of Troy, but no traces of the Trojan war have been found near there.

You will discover this work clearly demonstrates that the Iliad, however poetic, is based on real historical events in Bronze Age Western Europe.

Where Troy Once Stood

http://www.troy-in-england.co.uk/



What is your opinion?


Hi Puz. Just lost what I posted so I'll keep this one short.

After reading Imam's "Where Troy once stood" I believe, since it moves in the same direction I have been going for years, that it is correct. Everything just falls into place. Further I also think that the Romans as well as the Greeks are latter day Achaean's or Trojans.

So why don't the academics go for it? I guess there are many reasons not least is that they would have to admit that they have been wrong. I went to a large book store to buy a new copy of the Iliad (Because my favourite copy was falling to bits). A young girl just out of Uni studying ancient history  happened to serve me. On asking her views about Imam Wilkens she said, "He's a clever liar." Smiled and gave me my change. Now if you are couched in books and historical texts then that is where you go to find proof. Notwithstanding the fact that our education system has by its very nature the need to test knowledge with(accepted)factual answers, but sifting books and texts is far easier and cheaper than tramping all over in search of corroborative clues in the country side. So in my opinion I think that we may never see Imams work acknowledged.

In England there seems to be a great reluctance to cover any ground which has been covered already no matter how badly. Once the trenches are closed they stay closed. Saxon Dykes indeed! I know of a few people who have told me (third hand) that others had tried to get Time team involved around Cambridge but without success.

The time frame into which Troy goes has to be around 1200 but of course the certain other books tell otherwise as I'm sure you are aware.

PS: That new copy of the Iliad I bought began by replacing Achaean with "Greek". I was disgusted. Oh and don't get me started on Evans.

Sorry I'm not going to be more specific until I'm settled in my new home.


#21    questionmark

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 07:41 PM

The truth probably lies somewhere in between it all.

BTW, your map does not show the Karpathos contribution to the fleet (Homer calls it The Island of the Pigs) that sent 3 ships...at least according to the Karpathians.

What you can surely discount is the beautiful Helena. More likely Paris pinched the boss' treasure and then the circus started. Even more likely, Troy (or what we consider to be it) was getting rich by controlling the trade over  the Dardanelles and everybody else wanted a piece of the cake.

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#22    Flashbangwollap

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 12:52 PM

View Postquestionmark, on 16 November 2010 - 07:41 PM, said:

The truth probably lies somewhere in between it all.

BTW, your map does not show the Karpathos contribution to the fleet (Homer calls it The Island of the Pigs) that sent 3 ships...at least according to the Karpathians.

What you can surely discount is the beautiful Helena. More likely Paris pinched the boss' treasure and then the circus started. Even more likely, Troy (or what we consider to be it) was getting rich by controlling the trade over  the Dardanelles and everybody else wanted a piece of the cake.

I was going to quote stuff from Wilkens "Where Troy once stood" but what might be easier for you ?Mark is to have a look at Laura Knight Jadczyk's stuff about Wilkens book. She has gone into it in a lot. Other than that perhaps try finding a copy of the book. A new one is 37 but there may be some second hand copies around now on ebay or amazon. I think you may find it all very interesting.


#23    Abramelin

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 05:24 PM

View PostFlashbangwollap, on 17 November 2010 - 12:52 PM, said:

I was going to quote stuff from Wilkens "Where Troy once stood" but what might be easier for you ?Mark is to have a look at Laura Knight Jadczyk's stuff about Wilkens book. She has gone into it in a lot. Other than that perhaps try finding a copy of the book. A new one is £37 but there may be some second hand copies around now on ebay or amazon. I think you may find it all very interesting.

http://www.troy-in-england.co.uk/
http://en.wikipedia....Troy_Once_Stood
http://www.amazon.co...d/dp/0312059949

.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 November 2010 - 05:29 PM.


#24    Flashbangwollap

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 07:04 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 17 November 2010 - 05:24 PM, said:



Hey thanks AB and now you see why I'm reluctant to get too involved!

I need your secrets on how to imbed links and also not have to quote great chunks of stuff unrelated to my post.

PS I need many things besides but a healthy brain is top. Also damn good stuff on Doggerland.


#25    Abramelin

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 10:43 PM

View PostFlashbangwollap, on 17 November 2010 - 07:04 PM, said:

Hey thanks AB and now you see why I'm reluctant to get too involved!

I need your secrets on how to imbed links and also not have to quote great chunks of stuff unrelated to my post.

PS I need many things besides but a healthy brain is top. Also damn good stuff on Doggerland.

You don't need to embed links, you just copy and paste them into your post.

Try it.

Thanks for the compliment. Doggerland is my pet-topic.

If I had the gear and the balls, I would dive down to the bottom of the North Sea myself, LOL.

Edited by Abramelin, 17 November 2010 - 10:44 PM.


#26    Flashbangwollap

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 08:48 AM

Thanks for the compliment. Doggerland is my pet-topic.

Ha Ha I never would have guessed that!!!

But seriously... You have put so much work into Doggerland. I found a link once a few years ago about the Land bridge to the Continent only breaking about 4,000yrs ago. Now I only have limited internet so I haven't been through all your links yet. If this theory isn't there I'll look for it. If it is see previous and forgive me.


#27    The Puzzler

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 01:57 PM

Thanks for posting Jesse, Troy intrigues me and I still can't say with surety it was in Turkey at c. 1200BC. Bit strapped for time right now but I will come back to this.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#28    Flashbangwollap

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 02:53 PM

Thanks for posting Jesse, Troy intrigues me and I still can't say with surety it was in Turkey at c. 1200BC. Bit strapped for time right now but I will come back to this.

No problem. Off the top of my head once more: Something had to trigger the mass migration around 1200 and I was hoping this would marry up with AB's work. Apparently not though but something has to account for it. Perhaps the Scottish vitrified forts has something to do with this I don't no.

I'm assuming you have done the Phaethon thing to death so I won't repeat it. Northeners arrived in the Greece around 1200 BC to find many empty sites apparently and where they didn't they offered to settle the problem in their time honoured way. One on one combat with champions. Naturally enough there is little written in this dark age era to allow confirmation. Hence the mystery.

Where I think the "accepted view" may be out is in the way archaeology has grown up over the years. Starting with that which is obvious (Egypt,Greece, etc.)and taking the Greek and Roman writings too literally when it came the "Barbarians". Hence we have started some what late in the way of serious archaeology in Europe. Also the lack of advanced potting skills plays against Europe. But if you have an abundance of wood why not use that. If they did then the lack of finds is easily answered... they didn't survive.

I would appreciate any pointers to old threads containing the above. Meanwhile I'll wade through.

I expect to be cut to shreds on the above but hey I have narrow shoulders so not much will stay on them.


#29    Flashbangwollap

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 09:15 PM

Ugh!! Just been having a look at vitrified forts. Not a lot known as to how. I fancy what's needed is a Geographic survey using sat-nav of the forts noting heights, orientation of and the amount vitrified.

Here's a thought and that's all it is... Meteor - Comet passes by very close on it's way to destruction as is told (perhaps) Phaethon burning huge swaths of forest etc. and starting migration of 1200.

Anybody able to plot possible line(s) of trajectory? Over Egypt, Greece, Scotland maybe.


#30    cormac mac airt

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 09:46 PM

View PostFlashbangwollap, on 18 November 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

Ugh!! Just been having a look at vitrified forts. Not a lot known as to how. I fancy what's needed is a Geographic survey using sat-nav of the forts noting heights, orientation of and the amount vitrified.

Here's a thought and that's all it is... Meteor - Comet passes by very close on it's way to destruction as is told (perhaps) Phaethon burning huge swaths of forest etc. and starting migration of 1200.

Anybody able to plot possible line(s) of trajectory? Over Egypt, Greece, Scotland maybe.


That may prove rather difficult as according to the Earth Impact Database, there are no confirmed impactors in the timeframe of c.1200 BC.

Earth Impact Database

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus




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