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The Trojan War


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#31    The Puzzler

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 11:15 PM

View PostFlashbangwollap, on 18 November 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

Ugh!! Just been having a look at vitrified forts. Not a lot known as to how. I fancy what's needed is a Geographic survey using sat-nav of the forts noting heights, orientation of and the amount vitrified.

Here's a thought and that's all it is... Meteor - Comet passes by very close on it's way to destruction as is told (perhaps) Phaethon burning huge swaths of forest etc. and starting migration of 1200.

Anybody able to plot possible line(s) of trajectory? Over Egypt, Greece, Scotland maybe.
Kaali Crater in Estonia is my favourite Phaethon model.

http://articles.adsa...Metic..27Q.297T

That article says the impact craters were made between 3900-3500 years ago, exactly around 1900-1500BC.

http://en.wikipedia....li_crater  Wiki will tell you it happened c. 600BC.



The fall of the giant meteorite was certainly a tragic event, probably accompanied by extensive demolition, fires and even human victims. Falling of heavenly fire, explosion, clouds of dust and smoke, and the landscape changed beyond recognition must have caused fright and horror and awe among the surviving inhabitants. It is not known, how long the place maintained the taboo, but it is most likely that such a special place became a sacrificial site already before the settlement was established on its bank. The 6 m thick sediments at the bottom of the main crater may contain offerings. Hitherto the investigations have been stopped by a deposit of oak trunks, up to 1 m in diameter, at the depth of 4 m. Relying upon the dendrochronological data, these trees grew at the turn of the 1st and the 2nd millennia. The researchers have not yet been able to reach the deeper layers, which probably contain offerings. Still, the sacrificial water bodies in the neighbouring and Nordic countries allow to expect worthy results.

Lennart Meri has analysed the possible reflections of the Kaali catastrophe in human recollections in his books "Hõbevalge" and "Hõbevalgem", connecting Saaremaa with the mythical Thule, supposedly visited by the Greek traveller Pytheas in 325 BC, and also with the place of worship of the Germanic goddess of land, Nerthus, described by Tacitus. Besides the written sources, the falling of the Kaali meteorite was indubitably reflected in the folklore and mythology of several peoples. The falling of Sun from the sky, which, depending of the location of the observer, could occur altogether in the wrong quarter of the horizon, the terrible crash, the all-demolishing impactwave, the cloud of dust and forest fires indubitably left a deep impression in the people of that time. Several verses of the Finnish epic "Kalevala", the ancient Germanic "Older Edda" as well as in the folklore of Estonia and the neighbouring peoples indicate that impression.

  The ancient Greek myth about Phaeton, the son of Sun, who, driving the solar chariot, lost the power over the horses and tumbled into the mysterious river of Eridanos, also leads one's thoughts to the Kaali catastrophe.

One day a young man stepped up to the God of Sun and claimed that he was Phaeton, the son of the God of Sun himself and an earthborn woman Klymene. The young man had doubted his high parentage and demanded affirmation. The God of Sun admitted it, and, as an affirmation, promised to carry out his fondest wish. The boy, who had often admired sun disc's journey across the firmament, uttered an unexpected wish: he wanted to drive the sun chariot across the sky.

Hearing that, the God of Sun regretted his easily given promise. He tried to persuade the youngster to wish for something else, but without success. The boy, taking no heed of the menaces he was told about, had his will. At first the drive came off quite well and Phaeton felt himself almost the lord of the sky. But then the things took a tragic turn: the spirited horses, feeling that the reins were in weak hands, became frisky and sheered from the right direction. The youngster lost power over the horses, who now dashed up to the skies, now turned right down to the Earth so that forests and fields there caught fire, rivers and fountains evaporated and dried out.

When the cries and lamentations from the Earth reached Jupiter's ears, the latter, in this emergency, seized his lightning bolts and punished the irresponsible charioteer. The blazing Phaeton shot through the air and fell on the Earth into the mysterious river of Eridanos, which no mortal eye has seen. Phaeton's sisters Heliads, daughters of the God of Sun, Helios, sought out their brother's grave to bemoan him there. The mourning sisters were turned into poplar trees on the banks of Eridanos.


Poplars, amber, map that gives the Vistula as the Eridanus. Aestii area, Aesir Gods, used iron weapons to war. Seems Estonia is a pretty good place to me for sense on the Phaethon myth. Amber is extensively collected at the mouth of the Vistula, near Danzig, the same place the meteor fell.


Strange thing is, you can actually find an impact crater in western Egypt from similar time, 1500BC but it would not have been an inhabited area as much, there may have been a volley of smaller bodies that impacted in areas at similar times, is what I'm getting from it all, this can also explain that Phaethon burnt the faces of the Ethiopian black, being in the area of Libya, but also landed in the North, with amber, HELiades and poplars.

I think it did burn forests and what you say about vitrified rock to glass makes perfect sense for a close call by a meteor/comet etc. Seems rather more logical that an atomic bomb blast in the Holocene.

The Parian Chronicle shows Cranaos at c. 1500BC, which in another record has Phaethon fall in the reign of Cranaos.

1532/1BC 3) From when there was a dispute at Athens between Ares and Poseidon, because of Poseidon's son Halirrhothius, and the place was called the Hill of Ares, 1268 years, when Cr[ana]os was king of Athens.
http://www.ashmolean...04/q004008.html

The marble also gives the time for Trojan War at 1218BC.

I must say, the Bayeaux Tapestry has Halley's Comet looking very big and scary and I can only imagine it must have been very noticeable, bringing bad luck with it and signalling the downfall of Kings and realms. If it's that big in 1066, how big and close was it 2000 years prior to that I wonder?




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#32    Flashbangwollap

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Posted 18 November 2010 - 11:35 PM

That may prove rather difficult as according to the Earth Impact Database, there are no confirmed impactors in the timeframe of c.1200 BC.

Ditto with what I am finding. Perhaps a close pass finishing with an air burst? It would have to have been close to produce vitrification unless this is when Scotland was heavily forested and the fires did the trick. Hard to believe since there are other scattered sites around the globe and the heat needs to be 1,000 + degrees.

Disregarding Spanuth's Atlantis: Do you know of reports debunking Spanuth's sources or can I rely on his dates and quotes?

There has to be a trigger somewhere as there doesn't seem to be a cohesive plan to the appearance of so many Sea People. Given that Homer and others talk about raids and piracy which went on over a period of years. Its getting late and I have neck ache I'll have to lay out my thoughts far better than this and add sources.

#33    cormac mac airt

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:24 AM

Quote

Do you know of reports debunking Spanuth's sources or can I rely on his dates and quotes?

I personally wouldn't rely on much of anything concerning "Atlantis of the North" and his claims thereof. He's another in a long line of people who've reinterpreted it to be where he wants it to be.

Quote

There has to be a trigger somewhere as there doesn't seem to be a cohesive plan to the appearance of so many Sea People.

A trigger for the migrations and formation of the Sea Peoples and others wouldn't have to go very far, IMO. Consider the following volcanic eruptions:

Quote

Mt. Etna

Start Date: 1050 BC ± 75 years
Start Date: 1420 BC ± 75 years
Start Date: 1500 BC ± 50 years

Mt. Etna

and

Quote

Mt. Vesuvius

Start Date: 1430 BC ± 300 years
Start Date: 1550 BC ± 75 years

Mt. Vesuvius

Notice that both volcanoes eruptions are at least contemporary, if not simultaneous in time, during these eruptions. It wouldn't be stretching things, IMO, to believe that the combined devastation would incur a great amount of local damage, to include changing short term weather patterns, loss of crops, etc.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 19 November 2010 - 12:26 AM.

An explanation of one's position after falling for the ramblings of a Sitchin, Von Daniken, Berlitz, Bauval, Schoch, Hancock, Velikovsky and many others if it was expressed by two of my favorite characters from "The Big Bang Theory":  Leonard: All right, well, let me see if I can explain your situation using physics. What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane wrapped helically around an axis?  Sheldon: Screwed.

#34    kmt_sesh

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:33 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 19 November 2010 - 12:24 AM, said:

I personally wouldn't rely on much of anything concerning "Atlantis of the North" and his claims thereof. He's another in a long line of people who've reinterpreted it to be where he wants it to be.



A trigger for the migrations and formation of the Sea Peoples and others wouldn't have to go very far, IMO. Consider the following volcanic eruptions:



Mt. Etna

and



Mt. Vesuvius

Notice that both volcanoes eruptions are at least contemporary, if not simultaneous in time, during these eruptions. It wouldn't be stretching things, IMO, to believe that the combined devastation would incur a great amount of local damage, to include changing short term weather patterns, loss of crops, etc.

cormac

Gees, cormac, I never realized some of those eruptions occurred so close in time. Talk about a bad day out. How would you like to have lived in Italy in the Late Bronze Age? :blink:

Interesting that the earliest dates for both volcanos is at about the start of the New Kingdom in Egypt--their greatest heyday, so to speak. Doesn't seem to have affected them too much, so I guess Egypt was the place to be at the time.

Edited by kmt_sesh, 19 November 2010 - 12:34 AM.

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#35    The Puzzler

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:38 AM

Graia (Γραία), which means ancient or old, was said to be the oldest city of Greece. The word Γραικός (Graekos, Greek) is connected to 'Graia' by some authors.[1] Aristotle said that this city was created before the deluge. The same assertion about the origins of Graia city was found also in an ancient marble, the Parian Chronicle, discovered in 1687 and dated in 267-263 BC, that is currently kept in Oxford and on Paros. Reports about this ancient city can be found also in Homer, in Pausanias, in Thucydides, etc.

The origin of Boeotians lies in the mountain Boeon[2] (Epirus-West Macedonia), where Graecus is connected with Epirus by Aristotle. They were also related to Thessalians as their aeolic dialect indicates.

According to some ancient Greek sources, there were two great kings who ruled in Thebes (and Boeotia) before the Cataclysm (deluge) which happened in the reigns of Deucalion (in Thessaly), Cranaos (in Attica) and the sons of Lycaon (in Arcadia): Calydnos (Κάλυδνος) and Ogygos (Ώγυγος)


Parian marble again:


1529/8BC 4) From when there was a flood in the time of Deucalion, and Deucalion fled the waters from Lycoreia to Athens to [Cranaos] and [founded the temple of Olympian] Zeu[s, and] made offerings for his deliverance, 1265 years, when Cranaos was king of Athens.




When Cranaos was King of Athens, the flood of Deucalion occurred and it is this same time frame that Phaethon came.

A different King (in Argos Crotopus was) but telling us the flood and Phaethon happened at the same time.
According to Clement of Alexandria in his Stromata, "...in the time of Crotopus occurred the burning of Phaethon, and the deluges of Deucalion.



So, it is my estimation that Phaethon and the flood in the Aegean occurred at the same time c. 1500BC, which seems to fall into line with the eruption of Thera.

I don't however think the Phaethon myth is a telling of Thera but a meteor impact in Estonia and that story came into Greece via the amber trade.


Either way, legend has Troy being settled after a flood.

Just an edit on the italics.

Edited by The Puzzler, 19 November 2010 - 12:52 AM.

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#36    cormac mac airt

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:43 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 19 November 2010 - 12:38 AM, said:

Graia (Γραία), which means ancient or old, was said to be the oldest city of Greece. The word Γραικός (Graekos, Greek) is connected to 'Graia' by some authors.[1] Aristotle said that this city was created before the deluge. The same assertion about the origins of Graia city was found also in an ancient marble, the Parian Chronicle, discovered in 1687 and dated in 267-263 BC, that is currently kept in Oxford and on Paros. Reports about this ancient city can be found also in Homer, in Pausanias, in Thucydides, etc.

The origin of Boeotians lies in the mountain Boeon[2] (Epirus-West Macedonia), where Graecus is connected with Epirus by Aristotle. They were also related to Thessalians as their aeolic dialect indicates.

According to some ancient Greek sources, there were two great kings who ruled in Thebes (and Boeotia) before the Cataclysm (deluge) which happened in the reigns of Deucalion (in Thessaly), Cranaos (in Attica) and the sons of Lycaon (in Arcadia): Calydnos (Κάλυδνος) and Ogygos (Ώγυγος)


Parian marble again:


1529/8BC 4) From when there was a flood in the time of Deucalion, and Deucalion fled the waters from Lycoreia to Athens to [Cranaos] and [founded the temple of Olympian] Zeu[s, and] made offerings for his deliverance, 1265 years, when Cranaos was king of Athens.




When Cranaos was King of Athens, the flood of Deucalion occurred and it is this same time frame that Phaethon came.

A different King (in Argos Crotopus was) but telling us the flood and Phaethon happened at the same time.
[i]According to Clement of Alexandria in his Stromata, "...in the time of Crotopus occurred the burning of Phaethon, and the deluges of Deucalion.[i/]



So, it is my estimation that Phaethon and the flood in the Aegean occurred at the same time c. 1500BC, which seems to fall into line with the eruption of Thera.
I don't however think the Phaethon myth is a telling of Thera but a meteor impact in Estonia and that story came into Greece via the amber trade.


Either way, legend has Troy being settled after a flood.


How do you figure it falls in line with the eruption of Thera, considering that Thera erupted 100+ years before then?

cormac
An explanation of one's position after falling for the ramblings of a Sitchin, Von Daniken, Berlitz, Bauval, Schoch, Hancock, Velikovsky and many others if it was expressed by two of my favorite characters from "The Big Bang Theory":  Leonard: All right, well, let me see if I can explain your situation using physics. What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane wrapped helically around an axis?  Sheldon: Screwed.

#37    The Puzzler

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:49 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 19 November 2010 - 12:24 AM, said:

I personally wouldn't rely on much of anything concerning "Atlantis of the North" and his claims thereof. He's another in a long line of people who've reinterpreted it to be where he wants it to be.



A trigger for the migrations and formation of the Sea Peoples and others wouldn't have to go very far, IMO. Consider the following volcanic eruptions:



Mt. Etna

and



Mt. Vesuvius

Notice that both volcanoes eruptions are at least contemporary, if not simultaneous in time, during these eruptions. It wouldn't be stretching things, IMO, to believe that the combined devastation would incur a great amount of local damage, to include changing short term weather patterns, loss of crops, etc.

cormac
So, essentially we have Etna, Vesuvius and Thera all erupting at similar times.

Answer to above question, all within approx 100 years of each other. 1550 to 1630 is only 80 years anyway.
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#38    The Puzzler

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 12:51 AM

kmt asked, how would you like to have lived in Italy in the Late Bronze Age?

That is such a good question.
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#39    cormac mac airt

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 01:37 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 19 November 2010 - 12:33 AM, said:

Gees, cormac, I never realized some of those eruptions occurred so close in time. Talk about a bad day out. How would you like to have lived in Italy in the Late Bronze Age? :blink:

Interesting that the earliest dates for both volcanos is at about the start of the New Kingdom in Egypt--their greatest heyday, so to speak. Doesn't seem to have affected them too much, so I guess Egypt was the place to be at the time.

The general timeframe from c.2300 BC to 1500 BC was rather active, from the perspective of natural disasters, as can be seen from the following:

Posted Image

cormac
An explanation of one's position after falling for the ramblings of a Sitchin, Von Daniken, Berlitz, Bauval, Schoch, Hancock, Velikovsky and many others if it was expressed by two of my favorite characters from "The Big Bang Theory":  Leonard: All right, well, let me see if I can explain your situation using physics. What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane wrapped helically around an axis?  Sheldon: Screwed.

#40    cormac mac airt

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 01:40 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 19 November 2010 - 12:49 AM, said:

So, essentially we have Etna, Vesuvius and Thera all erupting at similar times.

Answer to above question, all within approx 100 years of each other. 1550 to 1630 is only 80 years anyway.

Broad strokes, huh? Okay.

cormac
An explanation of one's position after falling for the ramblings of a Sitchin, Von Daniken, Berlitz, Bauval, Schoch, Hancock, Velikovsky and many others if it was expressed by two of my favorite characters from "The Big Bang Theory":  Leonard: All right, well, let me see if I can explain your situation using physics. What would you be if you were attached to another object by an inclined plane wrapped helically around an axis?  Sheldon: Screwed.

#41    Flashbangwollap

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 02:25 AM

Open Question: Do any of you know if any one has mapped the positions of the Scottish vitrified forts? Can't load google earth as I have a virus on my other disc and I have taken pc's battery out. Long story! (I would like to finish vitrification if possible)A dispersion map of vitrified forts might reveal something new particularly if the forts show in a line or an oval formation. A long shot from what I have read but might still my mind.

Volcano's: Mmmh why not but still like a steady plod even though I sense you have been here before Cormac.

Hecla? Did AB turn that over? Surely he did or did he miss it? Now I have to check.

#42    Flashbangwollap

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 02:36 AM

Hate to be pedantic Cormac but this is what I said.

Disregarding Spanuth's Atlantis: Do you know of reports debunking Spanuth's sources or can I rely on his dates and quotes?

So are you saying don't quote any of Spanuth's quotes... or... Just the Atlantis stuff?

You still at it Puz?

Have to check the O B book thingy be back in a flash.

Edited by Flashbangwollap, 19 November 2010 - 02:43 AM.


#43    The Puzzler

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 02:39 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 19 November 2010 - 01:40 AM, said:

Broad strokes, huh? Okay.

cormac
Yep, considering how broad most date ranges are, I think it's reasonable.

Anyway, Thera doesn't concern me all that much, I see way more coming out of Italy than anywhere, in a flood scenario.

The myth of Dardanus coming from the area of Italy, once called Hesperia, being an Etruscan prince and after a flood settles in the Troad seems a most likely scenario.

His mother is Electra, daughter of Atlas, in the islands of the Hesperides, imo, is not in the Atlantic Ocean after all, but in the Western ocean of the Greeks, the area around Italy, it became covered in water and many fled from the plains of Latium. Then they came back.

The translation for the name Dardanus, is to burn, to slay - Dardanus appears to be a name similar to Phaethon's appearance...
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#44    The Puzzler

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 02:46 AM

View PostFlashbangwollap, on 19 November 2010 - 02:36 AM, said:

Hate to be pedantic Cormac but this is what I said.

Disregarding Spanuth's Atlantis: Do you know of reports debunking Spanuth's sources or can I rely on his dates and quotes?

So are you saying don't quote any of Spanuth's quotes... or... Just the Atlantis stuff?
Jurgen Spanuth has in my opinion solved the riddle of atlantis with this book, and indeed in his words the only thing surprising is that the question was not answered before now. In this book he uses cross references in such disciplines as conventional archaeology and geology even the science of astronomy (thats studying the positions of heavenly bodies not horoscopes folks) to determine the age and also the origin of Atlantis the Empire. This thouroughly unromantic and pragmatic book looks with a critical eye at the whole body of classical era archeology and comes to some surprising yet well founded conclusions, that have been unwittingly supported by discoveries since it's original publication. The only reason I don't give this book a rating of 10 is because it is so bloody hard to find, it is practically useless as a reference to refute the common stuff that litters the shelves of our bookstores. If romanticism about crystal temples and floating chariots in cities populated by creatures who resemble humans no closer than a melodramatic utopian cartoon is your bag, stay away. If however you would like to learn the truth about a long standing vibrant empire who saw its tragic and basically unlucky demise in the 13th- 12th century BCE then this is the book for you. With copious references to the Medinet Habu, which is the reference that that Solon himself used to find out about ancient Athens and in passing Atlantis, Jurgen capitalises on as many primary sources as possible.

Spanuth is as good as anyone to quote.

Don't quote the word Atlantis is what cormac is trying to say, according to him, it doesn't/didn't exist in any shape, form or timeframe and unless you can pull out a dated piece of archaeological evidence that it did, you may as well not even attempt to go there with cormac.

Me, on the other hand....
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#45    The Puzzler

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Posted 19 November 2010 - 02:51 AM

View PostFlashbangwollap, on 19 November 2010 - 02:36 AM, said:

Hate to be pedantic Cormac but this is what I said.

Disregarding Spanuth's Atlantis: Do you know of reports debunking Spanuth's sources or can I rely on his dates and quotes?

So are you saying don't quote any of Spanuth's quotes... or... Just the Atlantis stuff?

You still at it Puz?

Have to check the O B book thingy be back in a flash.
I'm always at it mate...

Have you seen this site on the Fitrified Forts?
http://www.brigantes...ifieedForts.htm

Edited by The Puzzler, 19 November 2010 - 02:52 AM.

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