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The Trojan War


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#511    Riaan

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:23 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 04 March 2013 - 09:27 PM, said:

http://www.academia...._U._Weninger_F.

Which means, in short, that the C14 dating is more objective while the archaeological dating is more subjective. All of which further means that at this point in time the two methods cannot be reconciled.

Edit to add:

Attachment Calibrated dates for Thera-Crete relationship.jpg

The circled portions and dates are what's relevant to the discussion. Your un-calibrated dates are meaningless in this regard.

cormac

Perhaps you should take this issue up with Bruins and his colleagues. The photograph shows evidence of two eruptions - solidified ash crushed by a later tsunami. Are there any Egyptian records from 1613 BCE which suggest that a massive volcanic eruption had occurred in the Mediterranean Sea? Surely its impact on that part of the world would have been recorded. There are none, as far as I am aware. The Hyksos were in charge in Lower Egypt only. Also no records there.

Edited by Riaan, 05 March 2013 - 05:26 AM.

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Thera and the Exodus, published February 2013, details here
Barbelo - The Story of Jesus Christ, published October 2014, details here

#512    cormac mac airt

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:50 AM

View PostRiaan, on 05 March 2013 - 05:23 AM, said:

Perhaps you should take this issue up with Bruins and his colleagues. The photograph shows evidence of two eruptions - solidified ash crushed by a later tsunami. Are there any Egyptian records from 1613 BCE which suggest that a massive volcanic eruption had occurred in the Mediterranean Sea? Surely its impact on that part of the world would have been recorded. There are none, as far as I am aware. The Hyksos were in charge in Lower Egypt only. Also no records there.

I don't have to take anything up with Bruins. As it stands right now the link I gave to the article "THE CHRONOLOGY OF TELL EL-DABA: A CRUCIAL MEETING POINT OF 14C DATING, ARCHAEOLOGY, AND EGYPTOLOGY IN THE 2ND MILLENNIUM BC (2012)" is the latest view on the subject and it clearly states the two chronologies cannot be reconciled currently. This does not mean you can rewrite the facts to suit your fancy.

And as we've been through before in the "Visibility of Thera's ash cloud from Egypt" thread a year ago there's no way the Thera plume, based on it's understood direction and height, could have been seen from Egypt which was some 533+ miles away. Again, your attempting to requite the facts.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#513    Riaan

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 05:19 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 05 March 2013 - 05:50 AM, said:

I don't have to take anything up with Bruins. As it stands right now the link I gave to the article "THE CHRONOLOGY OF TELL EL-DABA: A CRUCIAL MEETING POINT OF 14C DATING, ARCHAEOLOGY, AND EGYPTOLOGY IN THE 2ND MILLENNIUM BC (2012)" is the latest view on the subject and it clearly states the two chronologies cannot be reconciled currently. This does not mean you can rewrite the facts to suit your fancy.

And as we've been through before in the "Visibility of Thera's ash cloud from Egypt" thread a year ago there's no way the Thera plume, based on it's understood direction and height, could have been seen from Egypt which was some 533+ miles away. Again, your attempting to requite the facts.

cormac

Thanks for the very useful link! I am not sure what you are trying to prove by quoting it - all it does is confirms that there are as yet unresolved discrepancies between 14C dating and archaeology, both being well established methods (I read the article). In the end both have to agree, suggesting that one method is less accurate than the other, don't you think?

I have to return to the photograph - it shows solidified ash from Thera mingled with other tsunami deposited debris. Bruins and his colleagues argue:

"Therefore, in terms of environmental geological dating, the tsunami came after the deposition over eastern Crete  of airborne volcanic ash, but before the ash layer became dispersed by erosion and soil-biological mixing. A tsunami generated in the 3rd or 4th (last) eruption phase, as found on Thera, meets the above requirement and fits the presence of discrete volcanic ash in the tsunami deposits at Palaikastro…"

How long would it take volcanic ash to become solid rock? A couple of days? How much time lapsed between the various eruption phases? A much more logical explanation would be that the volcanic ash rocks shown in the photograph were formed a very long time before a second eruption, which caused the tsunami.

How else would you interpret the photograph?

Author of

Thera and the Exodus, published February 2013, details here
Barbelo - The Story of Jesus Christ, published October 2014, details here

#514    cormac mac airt

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 06:23 PM

View PostRiaan, on 05 March 2013 - 05:19 PM, said:

Thanks for the very useful link! I am not sure what you are trying to prove by quoting it - all it does is confirms that there are as yet unresolved discrepancies between 14C dating and archaeology, both being well established methods (I read the article). In the end both have to agree, suggesting that one method is less accurate than the other, don't you think?

I have to return to the photograph - it shows solidified ash from Thera mingled with other tsunami deposited debris. Bruins and his colleagues argue:

"Therefore, in terms of environmental geological dating, the tsunami came after the deposition over eastern Crete  of airborne volcanic ash, but before the ash layer became dispersed by erosion and soil-biological mixing. A tsunami generated in the 3rd or 4th (last) eruption phase, as found on Thera, meets the above requirement and fits the presence of discrete volcanic ash in the tsunami deposits at Palaikastro…"

How long would it take volcanic ash to become solid rock? A couple of days? How much time lapsed between the various eruption phases? A much more logical explanation would be that the volcanic ash rocks shown in the photograph were formed a very long time before a second eruption, which caused the tsunami.

How else would you interpret the photograph?

I'd agree. And since the Calibrated Dates that I circled earlier are the dates that are important to the conversation and not the uncalibrated ones, as can be seen they support the 1613 BC timeframe and not your later one. Since the Archaeological Dating method relies on the types and usage of pottery then it would appear, IMO, that said types may have been utilized for a longer period overall than is currently believed. Which again means you cannot cram the two timeframes together and claim they're one and the same.

Volcanic ash can stay airborne for days, weeks and potentially even several months at a time. Also, you're assuming the tsunami was caused by Thera when it's just as possible to have been a result of the eruptions of either Mt. Etna or Mt. Vesuvius, both of which erupted c.1550 BC.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#515    Riaan

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 06:49 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 05 March 2013 - 06:23 PM, said:

Volcanic ash can stay airborne for days, weeks and potentially even several months at a time.

Whichever way you look at it, the lumps of solid ash existed before the tsunami arrived. Had there been just one eruption, the tsunami would have come first and would long have subsided by the time the ash arrived. There would not have been any ash present in the tsunami deposits, only on top of it.

Quote

Also, you're assuming the tsunami was caused by Thera when it's just as possible to have been a result of the eruptions of either Mt. Etna or Mt. Vesuvius, both of which erupted c.1550 BC.

This is an assumption made by Bruins and others. Attempting to associate the tsunami with an eruption of Mt Etna may be stretching things a bit - it does not erupt that violently and is a lot further from Crete than Santorini is. Vesuvius is even further away and is shielded from Crete. The most likely candidate is Thera.

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Thera and the Exodus, published February 2013, details here
Barbelo - The Story of Jesus Christ, published October 2014, details here

#516    cormac mac airt

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 07:21 PM

View PostRiaan, on 05 March 2013 - 06:49 PM, said:

Whichever way you look at it, the lumps of solid ash existed before the tsunami arrived. Had there been just one eruption, the tsunami would have come first and would long have subsided by the time the ash arrived. There would not have been any ash present in the tsunami deposits, only on top of it.



This is an assumption made by Bruins and others. Attempting to associate the tsunami with an eruption of Mt Etna may be stretching things a bit - it does not erupt that violently and is a lot further from Crete than Santorini is. Vesuvius is even further away and is shielded from Crete. The most likely candidate is Thera.

That's just one of many possibilities. One doesn't need an eruption to cause a tsunami. Earthquakes suffice just as well and the Mediterranean has its share. But I realize you're wanting to do what the experts say they can't do currently, which is reconcile the discrepancy between the two methods.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#517    Riaan

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 08:56 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 05 March 2013 - 07:21 PM, said:

That's just one of many possibilities. One doesn't need an eruption to cause a tsunami. Earthquakes suffice just as well and the Mediterranean has its share. But I realize you're wanting to do what the experts say they can't do currently, which is reconcile the discrepancy between the two methods.

cormac

There still remains the issue of all the ancient accounts of volcanic eruption phenomena - the darkness over Egypt, the floods of Ogyges and Deucalion, etc, etc. Are all of these legends pure fantasy?

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Thera and the Exodus, published February 2013, details here
Barbelo - The Story of Jesus Christ, published October 2014, details here

#518    cormac mac airt

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:03 PM

View PostRiaan, on 05 March 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

There still remains the issue of all the ancient accounts of volcanic eruption phenomena - the darkness over Egypt, the floods of Ogyges and Deucalion, etc, etc. Are all of these legends pure fantasy?

Jebal Marra in the Sudan as well as "the Mountain of God", known to the Massai in Tanzania, also erupted in the 16th century BC. Your point? There's no evidence that these claimed eruptions are all one and the same. Nor that any of them had anything to do with the Hebrews, aside from your wanting it to be true.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#519    Everdred

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Posted 05 March 2013 - 11:49 PM

View PostRiaan, on 05 March 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

There still remains the issue of all the ancient accounts of volcanic eruption phenomena - the darkness over Egypt, the floods of Ogyges and Deucalion, etc, etc. Are all of these legends pure fantasy?

I'm not familiar with the Ogyges flood, but the Deucalion flood seems very likely to be a Greek adaptation of the Mesopotamian flood story, extant in the tales of Noah (Hebrew), Utnapishtim (Babylonian), and Atrahasis (Sumerian).


#520    kmt_sesh

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 12:15 AM

View PostRiaan, on 05 March 2013 - 08:56 PM, said:

There still remains the issue of all the ancient accounts of volcanic eruption phenomena - the darkness over Egypt, the floods of Ogyges and Deucalion, etc, etc. Are all of these legends pure fantasy?

I imagine your referring to the Tempest Stela in reference to Egyptian accounts. As you know, this dates to the reign of Ahmose I. However, this inscription clearly describes a flood event and there is nothing on the face of it that describes a volcanic eruption. See the translation here. Because colossal rainstorms are rare in Egypt, some have posited that the events described in this account do refer to Thera, but there are a couple of problems: there is no eruption of Thera dated to the time period of Ahmose I and, perhaps just as important, ascribing this flooding event to Thera stands as simple, idle speculation. There is nothing evidentiary—scientifically or textually—to link the two. The fact is, although it doesn't rain much in Egypt, on occasion when rains do hit, they come as severe downpours that cause widespread flooding. This is as true now as it was 3,000 years ago. The amount of conglomerated, hardened flood debris that choke ancient tombs is testament to this.

Ogyges and Deucalion describe flood events belonging to Greek mytho-history, not to actual historical events. While perhaps there's something to the old adage that myths contain kernels of truth, the issue is trying to discern fact from the surrounding fiction, which is nearly always impossible to do. The same is true for Troy and the legends surrounding it, Heracles and his adventures, Gilgamesh and his deeds in Sumer, and of course Noah and Moses and the other figures of biblical lore. In the case of both Ogyges and Deucalion, I am not aware of anything which would underpin either case as factual.

As for the tsunami in question, cormac already noted something very important: geology doesn't require a volcanic eruption to produce a tsunami. I would wager that the majority of tsunamis are not caused by eruptions in the first place. Earthquakes have produced some of the most devastating tsunamis, and the Mediterranean is and always has been a very seismically active region.

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#521    Riaan

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Posted 06 March 2013 - 04:19 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 06 March 2013 - 12:15 AM, said:

I imagine your referring to the Tempest Stela in reference to Egyptian accounts. As you know, this dates to the reign of Ahmose I. However, this inscription clearly describes a flood event and there is nothing on the face of it that describes a volcanic eruption.

By the same token, the fact that only a flood is mentioned cannot rule out a volcanic eruption. It is very peculiar that 'darkness in the Western region' is specifically mentioned. It could very well have been the ash cloud of Thera drifting in a south-eastern direction.

Quote

Ogyges and Deucalion describe flood events belonging to Greek mytho-history, not to actual historical events. While perhaps there's something to the old adage that myths contain kernels of truth, the issue is trying to discern fact from the surrounding fiction, which is nearly always impossible to do. The same is true for Troy and the legends surrounding it, Heracles and his adventures, Gilgamesh and his deeds in Sumer, and of course Noah and Moses and the other figures of biblical lore. In the case of both Ogyges and Deucalion, I am not aware of anything which would underpin either case as factual.

These two floods are quoted by quite a few ancient historians and they link Moses and the Exodus to one or the other. What if there had indeed occurred two major tsunamis? Then there is also the El Arish Shrine text, about which I will post a summary on my website shortly. This text confirms Manetho's account of Moses and Amenhotep III, and most significantly a complete darkness over Egypt that lasted 9 days.  This could not have been caused by anything but volcanic ash descending upon Egypt.

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Thera and the Exodus, published February 2013, details here
Barbelo - The Story of Jesus Christ, published October 2014, details here




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