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The murder of Cheri Jo Bates

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#166    megadongirl


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Posted 11 August 2012 - 09:53 PM

I think Zodiac is a reasonable suspect. I wonder if they can get his DNA off the watch and compare it to the DNA from the Zodiac letters?

#167    regi



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Posted 13 August 2012 - 01:41 PM

I've read more about this case and have learned that the vehicle was disabled intentionally by a wire pulled from the distributor.

The presence of the watch at the crime scene is intriguing. The broken band shows a struggle, and I know there's other evidence suggesting that the perp had scratches, so the perp would certainly show those if he was soon questioned, correct?
Also, why would a perp wear a watch if he'd left his home planning to murder? I think the fact that he was wearing a watch could indicate that he didn't plan the murder too far in advance...that the opportunity presented itself after he was busy with a usual routine.

I've seen the connection made between this case and the Zodiac's, and I know Zodiac claimed responsibility for the murder.
I'm wondering when the letters in the Bates case were published.
The reason I wonder that is because I think it's possible that the Zodiac knew of this case and took his lead from it, and I want to rule that out.
I haven't studied the Zodiac case, but if he was relatively smart, I don't think he'd misspell those words. I think it could have been an attempt to "prove" that he was indeed the same perp...to mispell the same words and use the same phrases as were used in the Bates case. I don't know if he knew any more about the actual murder than anyone else who'd heard about it on the news, or read about it in the paper, although I don't know what was reported. I think it's possible that what he said could have been easily imagined using what info was reported, and surely, there was other info he could have offered.

I intend to look more into the possible connection between these cases, but so far, I'm doubtful.
The perp who killed Bates got away with it, and it was two years before Zodiac showed up, correct?

Edited by regi, 13 August 2012 - 01:43 PM.

#168    regi



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Posted 14 August 2012 - 02:38 PM

I've read through what I could find of what's considered the Zodiac letters, and I didn't see where responsibility was accepted for the Bates murder. I only saw recognition that the authorities were investigating a possible link.

I've read that the watch band showed the perp's wrist to be about 7" in diameter. Now, that doesn't sound to me like the perp who Michael Mageau described almost three years later.

#169    billiemichele


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Posted 13 October 2012 - 11:09 PM

I have noticed that the person who did the Bates case (obvious in regard to THE CONFESSION letter as well, which was also a "poem", I noticed)
the person who did the Zodiac case (obvious in regard to the letters as well)
was a "COPYCAT" killer.

Jack the Ripper

(Stated about victim of Jack the Ripper:
"Her throat was cut from ear to ear.")

(Stated about Cheri Jo Bates:
"Her throat was cut.
She was nearly decapitated.")

(Said to have had, "seven slashes" across the throat.)

Was found, near the "alley".

The letter-writer also tried to "talk like" Jack the Ripper, in THE CONFESSION letter (which was also a, poem)


(Police stated that the the killer did NOT break the knife in her.
So, I wondered, was he just lying, or was there ANOTHER reason why he stated that.)

I then noticed that, the letter-writer tried to "talk like" Jack the Ripper in that letter.

(Was using that case as a "Guidebook".)

I then noticed, the same thing was done in the Zodiac case, as well.

Let me show you an example, of how this "COPYCAT" game works:

(I was already very family with the Jack the Ripper case, so after I realized that he was a "COPYCAT",
more and more "keywords"/"keyword phrases" from the Jack the Ripper case then started popping out),

(Stated in the Jack the Ripper case):

"a bloody piece of apron
belonging to (victim's name)
was found shortly after"

(Stated about the Zodiac case that occurred in San Francisco):

"a bloody piece of shirtTAIL (that is as close as it gets to apron, unless he could have found a woman who was wearing an apron at the time. Hard to do)
belonging to (Paul Stine)
was sent in shortly after"

(Stated in Jack the Ripper case):

"Police believe he may have wiped
his knife off with it."

(Stated in Zodiac case that occurred in San Francisco)

"Police believe he may have wiped
his fingerprints off the cab."

I noticed that in both cases, alot of references were also made to:
JFK (including, what was stated in Bio of JFK)/JFK Assassination case.

"After JFK was killed, many people stated that he
went to the slaughter like a lamb."

(After Cheri Jo Bates was killed)

Letter-writer stated:

[Miss Bates] "went to the slaughter like a lamb."

(The letter-writer used the word "SHE" a lot of times in that letter.
That lead me to believe that, it was possibly also used as a double-meaning.
"Shepherd and the Lamb".)

Later, Cecilia SHEPARD
(attended the university in Riverside)
was killed.

"JFK was the first Boy Scout to become President."

(In the newspaper article that came out, after the murder of David Faraday and Betty Lou Jensen):

"David Faraday had recently received the
GOD & COUNTRY award.

(He was "shot in the head")

It may have been a sniper."

"After JFK was killed, the Canadian government named a mountain after him.
Mt. Kennedy"

"His brother, Robert F. Kennedy" (along with some other men, climbed to the summit)
was the first to reach the summit, where he placed a banner of arms."
(Coat of Arms)

(Now this is on a completely different subject, because I do not think Gareth Penn is the Zodiac.)

What I do want to know, however, is why one of his so-called articles (on ecphorizer.com) is:
"Where Were You"

(when JFK was killed)

"JFK was born in Brookline, Massachusetts."
(his brother Robert was too)
"JFK went to Harvard."
(and his father went to Harvard.)
"It is believed that the Kennedys were descended from, the O'Kennedy (s)

I want to know why Gareth Penn found (a 'victim' in Brookline, Massachusetts), and "tried to say" that: He thought he was the Zodiac.

Gareth Penn:  
"I found him in a Harvard yearbook.
He lives in Brookline, Massachusetts."

That is real interesting, because I think that is "possibly" how the Zodiac found HIS victims.

(back to BIO of JFK)

...."In yearbook, it stated, "Most Likely to Succeed"

I believe this killer possibly also included the commonly-stated "Conspiracy Theory" (that you see when reading about the two cases as well):

"Jack the Ripper may have been a Mason."

"JFK may have been killed by Masons,
and some police."

(Some police are also a Mason.)

Zodiac case, San Francisco:




The killer was doing the "keywords" from those two cases.

(The newspapers were then putting those "keywords", into the newspaper.
Whether or not, they realized, what they were doing/saying.)

"Oswald bought two guns through mail order."

(Zodiac letter):
[I] bought [my] killing tools through mail order,
before the ban went into effect

(I finally figured out what that was a reference to:
"Gun Control Act of 1968"

I then read it.
"It was put into effect by Lyndon B. Johnson
after the assassination of John F. Kennedy",

"and Martin Luther King,"

(Patricia Hautz letter, sent to the Editor at Riverside newspaper):

(It was written after they did a later newspaper article about the victim Cheri Jo Bates)

How about doing a story about the life of the boy who killed her.

(IMPOSSIBLE, of course, because noone knew/knows who killed her.)

"If people were to read
about the life of a boy

(Since I already knew that this person was a COPYCAT of Jack the Ripper/Jack the Ripper case,
JFK/JFK Assassination case - and, since noone knows who Jack the Ripper was, so you can't READ the BIO about him), I believe this possibly meant to:
of "the boy" (John F. Kennedy)

So....I did.

...."He was called Jack ever since he was a little boy."

The person then stated in that letter:

"turned killer"


"turned killer"

the Ripper

The outfit that was worn in the case that occurred near Napa (at Lake Berryessa),
was possibly this person's (made) "secret society" outfit (costume)

"I have to stab you people."

(because I'm playing the part of the crazy cop-Mason)

(stated in the, "Conspiracy Theory")

TWO WAYS, this guy was going to kill:

KNIFE  (Jack the Ripper case/Jack the Ripper. Attention on the female)
GUN (JFK Assassination case/Oswald. The "males", will be "shot in the head")

"Jack the Ripper sent letters and poems.
Jack the Ripper sent ciphers.
Jack the Ripper sent clues to his identity."

(Well, that is what is "said", but if there were in clues, they would most likely be: "fake clues")

First Zodiac "letter":


"In this cipher
is my identity."

This guy was a "COPYCAT" killer.

Jack the Ripper letters included:
"ha ha"

Zodiac letters included:

"ha ha"

Zodiac cipher (I think it was the 340 cipher, would have to look again to be sure)

There are three, circled 8s


(Year of Jack the Ripper case)

After seeing that this killer was a "COPYCAT" killer, noticing what he was COPYCATTING,
in then looking over the JFK Assassination case again (and reading the BIO),
all done to refresh my memory,
I came across the info. about the Warren Commission Report.

I saw it stated that, this report was "888" pages long.

Zodiac letter:

"How much money do you have on my head now?"

(This was 'possibly' a reference to)

Kennedy half-dollar

(So I then looked to see when the Kennedy half-dollar was first made, because I had no idea.


Zodiac letter:

"I want the people of San Fran bay to wear some buttons."

(This was 'possibly' a reference to: "campaign" buttons)

(He quoted lines from The Mikado)

In researching about The Mikado, I saw this stated:

"Politicians commonly quote the Mikado, rewording the "Little List" and the "Punishments"
in regard to people who they do not like."

[Opera by Gilbert & Sullivan, first done in LONDON.

The "First London revival" was
July (something, would have to look again) 1888
- Sept. 27, 1888]

(Zodiac was possibly NOT a "politician",
but it could be possible that, maybe he had a "political" OPINION about things.)

"I saw and think the Exorcist
is the best saterical comidy that I have seen."

(By the way, the "i" s were dotted with circles,
same as the envelope of THE CONFESSION letter that was postmarked Riverside.)

Recently, I did handwriting comparisons of my own.

(Because of the way that the (small) "f" s were made, I decided to compare that letter - and that letter alone. And to keep from being distracted, of trying to look at ALL of the letters.)

(THE CONFESSION letter was typewritten, so I could not use it for comparison.)

(The "Bates had to die, there will be more" was hand-printed,
but there was no "f" in the statement.)

I used (clipped) the "f" from the hand-printed poem that was found on the "underside" of the school desk at Riverside City College library.

[By the way, surely the person who wrote that was not lying on their back on the floor of the library, when they wrote it.)

It was stated to have been found "by a janitor, in the storage closet."

It seems to me that, the desk was already turned over, when that was THEN written on the "underside" of that desk.]

Interestingly, I found the same "f" s,
in the Zodiac letters.

(Most of his "f" s have a little tail at the end of them.
In regard to the slash mark across the middle of the "f",
the left side is usually higher, the right side lower,
the left side is usually shorter, the right side is usually longer.)

Besides having a curved-top to the "f" s,
there was another pattern throughout the letters (and was seen within the SAME letter):

The top of the "f" was a straight-line top.

[I will not be posting it here, but on my yahoo group site, BTK Strangler and Other Serial Killers,
I am going to post the "f" s comparisons, in a word document file. (in the "Zodiac" folder)

For the comparison, I did not use the Capital Fs.
(The small "f" s, is what is interesting. I compared only those.)

The reason I decided to do this comparison was:
I had already noticed the same "f" s, in the letters.

(While reading the letters.)

But I wanted to "document" it,
and also wanted to see just how many "f" s there were for comparison, etc.

There were ALOT.
However, those same two patterns
(The two "f" s that he used), are seen over and over and over again.

(i.e.: Alot of "f" s. However, ONLY, the same two patterns.
I only noticed, 'two' main patterns - and even then, they were all similar.
For example, one might have a curved-top and one a straight-line top - in the SAME LETTER,
however, they BOTH still had, the tail, at the end of them both.)

Edited by billiemichele, 13 October 2012 - 11:40 PM.

#170    billiemichele


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Posted 14 October 2012 - 12:27 AM

THE CONFESSION ("letter and poem")

Maybe she will be
the beautiful blond that babysits
near the little store
and walks down the dark alley
each evening about seven.

("Jack the Ripper wrote letters and poems.")

The "COPYCAT" er had to learn 'how' to write a poem.

"beautiful blond babysits"

I recognized this as being a "technique" in poem-writing, but I did not know what it was called.

So, I did some poem-writing research (Google search, in regard to poem-writing, starting each word with the same letter.)

I found out what this is called.


Another technique that you might be familiar with is alliteration.
This procedure is used by starting three or more words with the same sound.
An example of this would be 'The crazy crackling crops.'

How to Use Techniques and Styles in Poems

The three words don't have to have the exact same beginning to have this effect. Alliteration is a great tool to use for descriptions along with raising the readers attention about a specific subject--great for dark and horror writings.

(In regard to a "possible" suspect-type)

The killer was, obviously, interested in "criminal cases" (well-known, front-page type)

(He was a "COPYCAT" er.)

I also noticed something else as well, in regard to the letter written by Zodiac,

[The one he sent after,

he sent the first letter (to three newspapers), and then one of them (San Francisco Examiner, I think it was) stated in an article:

(Chief of) Vallejo P.D. says they need more information, before they will believe that the letter was written by the actual killer.]

It was "written like", a police detective's "crime-scene investigation report".

(I had noticed the same thing, when I researched the BTK Strangler case, before he was then caught - I started researching that case in March of 2004.)

Newspaper articles at the time, however, did state:

"He uses police lingo in his letters.

Maybe he has taken Criminal Justice classes."

[> He WAS taking them, at the TIME, that statement was made.

He started taking them, the same month (year), that the first case occurred.

He then sent in a letter, and he put a title at the top of the page:


He then, wrote it out like, a police detective's crime-scene investigation report.]

I see the SAME type of thing, in the Zodiac case (which I first started researching, after BTK got himself caught.) ]

(In regard to the Zodiac case)

Survivor, Mike Mageau:

"I thought he was a cop.

We thought he was a cop.

We started getting our driver's licenses out."

He, "shined a large light" in their faces.

(Then, stated in a later article):

"Police (Vallejo P.D.) said" the guy "did police-type car maneuvers

those done by highway patrolmen."

[ALL police do, police-type car maneuvers, don't they.

Also, years ago, I have been pulled over by a city cop for speeding.

And, years ago, I have been pulled over by a highway patrolmen.

I saw no difference, in the "technique" that was used.

So I am curious to know, why Vallejo P.D. added,
those done by highway patrolmen.

What is the difference ???)

Also, you have to look at the "individual" driver, as well.

For example: Some cops who work at a Sheriff's department in a small rural area,

drive crazy. (are known to, go into a ditch; go off the road into the trees, on side of road, etc.)


Zodiac also used police-lingo in his letters.

"routine robbery"
("routine", robbery?

Someone who is "not" a cop, usually states just, robbery.

I am not implying that this was a cop or that I believe that he was.
He does, however, seem mighty interested in it.)





My question is: Could this person have possibly been:

a "Criminal Justice student" ?


(Oh, and don't forget the pretty recent case of Stephen Griffiths in London.

"Criminal Justice student"

He killed "prostitutes"

(with a crossbow),

then dismembered the bodies and tossed the remains into the river.

(After his arrest)

At least one of the neighbors told police that,
this guy had been walking around telling the neighbors that:

"I am doing a Phd in Jack the Ripper"

I find that very interesting, because in
[....] "the Zodiac"

case, from what I have been seeing,
he was, too.

(At the top of my list:

It could be possible that this person may have been a "Criminal Justice student")

(If so,
he was possibly going for a Bachelor's degree.) (??)
("Administration of Justice")

"Criminal Justice"

(Or in cases such as Dennis Rader and Stephen Griffiths):

"Criminal" Justice

Edited by billiemichele, 14 October 2012 - 01:24 AM.

#171    billiemichele


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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:44 AM

FBI profilers have stated that:

Many times, serial killers are interested in law enforcement.

Also, some of their "ruses" that they use, are: pretending to be, a cop.

Some serial killers will try to find a job in which, they get to wear a uniform.
(and of course, get to tell people what to do.)

Some serial killers have been a cop, previously.

(An example is: oh, I cannot remember his name offhand at the moment,
but he was a Louisiana serial killer.

It was stated that: He used to work at the Sheriff's dept.)

Some killers, were a cop when they killed.

(Example: I cannot remember his name, but he is currently still in prison.
A young girl had left her home to walk to the store.
This cop saw her. He was the last known person to have seen her.

I haven't read about the case for quite some time, so I do not remember all of the evidence of this case.

Her body was found dumped. (rural area, trash stated to have been at the place. "beer bottles", etc.)

[As a note: When a perp is caught, after one time, there is no way of knowing whether or not that person may have later BEEN, a serial killer - had he not been caught.]

In regard to the Zodiac case, "had" he been a cop, it could be possible that he was "older" than the young girls who were killed. The reason being: Alot of cops seem to like "young girls".
(Although most of them, if they have any sense at all, try to avoid the "jail bait".)

#172    billiemichele


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Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:41 AM

In regard to the watch that was found, at the location where the body of Cheri Jo Bates was found,
keep in mind that: It could have possibly been a "fake clue".

(It could be possible that: It may not have even been running, when it was "put" there.)

When it was found, "it was not running".

Keep in mind that: There is not actually any proof that, the killer was "wearing" that watch,
before it was left there.

(And, just because the watch "fit a wrist of 7" in diameter",
does not necessarily mean that: This was the measurement of the wrist of the killer.)

(A "pair of gloves" was found in the cab of cab-driver Paul Stine, in SF case.
Wasn't it stated that they were a size 7.
And it was stated that: This was a very small size.)

Was it a "fake clue"?

("If" the killer left them there,
why would a killer leave "evidence" like that.)

And surely, had the killer been "wearing" that Timex watch, at the Riverside crime scene,
seeing as people get used to wearing a watch (for those who do), you usually know right away, when it is no longer on your wrist.

(Why didn't he get the watch, before he left.)

One question that I have is:

What "light" was in the area, where the body of Cheri Jo Bates was found at.
(Supposedly, she was killed at this same area as well.)

(You notice that the article that shows the light that they installed, stated that it was not installed until AFTER this case occurred.)

She was by, a "darkened" alley.

(Unless the moon lit it up enough to see at night, how did the killer even see what he was doing
- if she was killed at this area, at night time.)

Also, in the newspaper article that came out that the day of Oct. 31 (same day, that her body was stated to have been found at 6:00 a.m. in the morning), it shows on one page, a man and woman talking to a police officer,
and the caption underneath the picture states that these two Riverside college library employees told this police officer that,
this school library annex (by where she was found dead at), was CLOSED that day. ("Sunday", the night before.)

I did a Google map, and it shows that the location of the Riverside City College (that is where the MAIN library was at) was:
4800 Magnolia.

It shows in the autopsy report of Cheri Jo Bates

(which is posted at: http://thezodiacmansonconnection.com
click on: "Autopsy Files")

, that the location her body was found at was:

3680 Terracina

(Magnolia and Terracina streets intersect each other)

The distance between the two locations is stated on Google map to be
(driving distance/driving time):

"0.4 miles, 1 min"

They are not that far apart.
But what I want to know is:

It seems that some people "think" that the "school library annex" by which the body of Cheri Jo Bates was found at, (stated to have been killed there as well)
was OPEN on this day (which was a "Sunday", day she disappeared. Body found the next morning, about 6:00 a.m.),
that THIS was the library, that she had been at.

According to the statements in that newspaper article, this place was CLOSED.

(So my question is: How did her car/and her, end up HERE.)

(And with her being a student at the college, it seems that she would have known that, this school library annext was CLOSED on that day, and she possibly never even went to the annex. She may have only used the MAIN library, at the college.)

And if she went to the MAIN library on this day, doesn't it seem that she would have parked at:
the MAIN library (one that was open) at the college.

Why would "she" park her car, here.

(near the library annex, that wasn't even open that day.
A place that was going to be dark at night, and had alot of vacant houses by it.)

(There were "greasy prints" found on the INSIDE of her car.
Did the killer drive her car to this location?)

it seems that something is possibly being missed here.

If she had been at the OPEN library, which was the MAIN library at the college,
if THAT had been where the wire was taken off the distributor,
she could not have driven her car, to HERE.

If it was taken off, here, where her car was found at
- why would "she" have been, here.

(to begin with)

This does not look like a place that SHE would have gone to.
It looks like a place that the killer put her car/and her at.

("dark alley", vacant houses around.
CLOSED, school library annex.)

(And by the way, you are talking about two different libraries here,
that belonged to Riverside City College.
It seems that this person knew his away around, the campus area.)

(According to the note left at the home, to her father:
Dad, gone to the library.)

The problem here is:

One was OPEN. (Main library, at the college.)

Her car/and her dead body, were found at the OTHER one.
- Also owned by, the college.

The one that was CLOSED.

CLOSED, that day. ("Sunday)
darkened alley,
vacant houses around it.

How did her car/and her, end up here.

(And it surely seems that, she would have parked by the MAIN library,
had she gone to the OPEN library and checked out library books from there.)

I see no reason why SHE would have put her car/and herself, at this location.
(The school library annex was CLOSED on that day.)

(And, upon leaving the MAIN library at the college, I highly doubt she would have driven through this "alley" to head to her home, either.)

CLOSED, that day. ("Sunday")
darkened alley.
vacant houses around it.

(There was no benefit to HER, in regard to this.)

The only benefit would have been to, the killer, in this case.

HE, possibly put her car/and her, HERE,
in some way.

How did he do that.

(Could it be possible that, he was in her car when she left the main library at the college,
and then he made her drive down that alley.) ???

(Just because library books were "found" in the passenger seat of her car,
doesn't necessarily mean that someone had not been sitting in it, at some time previously.
You can move, some books.)

Edited by billiemichele, 14 October 2012 - 03:11 AM.

#173    billiemichele


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Posted 14 October 2012 - 05:39 AM

(I cannot "edit" this post again, so I need to add something to this following post):

(Now this is on a completely different subject, because I do not think Gareth Penn is the Zodiac.)

What I do want to know, however, is why one of his so-called articles (on ecphorizer.com) is:
"Where Were You"

(when JFK was killed)

"JFK was born in Brookline, Massachusetts."
(his brother Robert was too)
"JFK went to Harvard."
(and his father went to Harvard.)
"It is believed that the Kennedys were descended from, the O'Kennedy (s)

I want to know why Gareth Penn found (a 'victim' in Brookline, Massachusetts), and "tried to say" that: He thought he was the Zodiac.

Gareth Penn:
"I found him in a Harvard yearbook.
He lives in Brookline, Massachusetts."

[HERE IS THE "ADDITION", I am adding to this posting]:

As I stated, in the BIO of JFK, it also stated
- Other than the,

"JFK was born in Brookline, Massachusetts",

JFK went to Harvard"
(says his father did too) that:

"It is believed that the Kennedy (s) descended from the O' Kennedy (s)

The person who Gareth stated he:

"found in a Harvard yearbook,

he lives in Brookline, Massachusetts",

his name was:  O' (....)


That is real interesting, because I think that is "possibly" how the Zodiac found HIS victims.

(back to BIO of JFK)

...."In yearbook, it stated, "Most Likely to Succeed"

(One more addition to my postings):

(Stated in Bio of JFK)

"His father, Joseph"

(Cheri Jo Bates' father's name: Joseph)

In regard to the victims in the Zodiac case, I do not think they were random cases.

I believe they were CHOSEN.

(Chosen for certain, "keywords")

(and the cases done in certain ways, in order to get "keywords" in.
For example: the article that came out after the finding of the body of Cher Jo Bates:

Cheri Jo Bates was found near the "alley".

(Possibly, this one too, stated in the same article):
outside the "school library annex")

Jack the Ripper
JFK Assassination case

(By the way, this killer would have loved it had they included this "keyword" in the Zodiac articles as well, which they didn't:

"After JFK was killed, many people stated he went to the slaughter like a lamb."

Stated in THE CONFESSION letter ("letter and poem"), after the murder of Cheri Jo Bates
("throat cut from ear to ear"; "alley";
"school library annex"):

Miss Bates
"went to the slaughter like a lamb"


(BIO of JFK)

"After JFK was killed, the Canadian government named a mountain after him.
Mt. Kennedy"

"His brother, Robert F. Kennedy (along with other men) climbed to the summit.
He was the first one to reach the summit, where he placed a banner of arms."
(Coat of Arms)

Zodiac sent a map in, where he placed (drew) the symbol that he used,
on Mt. Diablo

(Like I said, I do not believe Gareth Penn was/is the Zodiac.)

I would like to know, however,
after: in 1982, I think it was, when Gareth Penn came out of the woodwork with:
"I have a radian theory."

("radians" was stated in a Zodiac letter, along with the map)

The word "radian" has been around since the 1800s,
but for some reason, Gareth Penn seems to believe, you have to be a genious, to have ever heard that word before.
Remember using a compass in school (grade school, junior high, high school) and taking Geometry.
MANY people are aware of that term and they know what it is.

(If you have kiddos, here is a site for them):

Pi - Geometry for Kids!

Gareth Penn then 'zoomed off' to:
Where "JFK was born at", Brookline, Massachusetts
where "JFK went to school at." Harvard

Gareth Penn:
"I found him in a Harvard yearbook.
He lives in Brookline, Massachusetts."

His name: " O' " (....)

(who was nothing more than a 'victim', of Gareth Penn)

He "tried" to say that, he thought this guy was the Zodiac.

(No, there was another reason that he did that.
Although I am not sure, at this time, what that reason was.)

One more "addition":
When I was talking about the so-called article of Gareth Penn at ecphorizer.com
(He "supposedly", at least according to him, joined Mensa, where he then started writing these so-called articles - which have to do with this thoughts about, the Zodiac case),
and this is why I am questioning, about the one that is entitled:

"Where Were You"

(when JFK was shot)

The reason being: I am aware that the Zodiac made MANY "references" to JFK/JFK Assassination case.

(So what I want to know is, why did Gareth Penn do THAT article,
when all of his so-called articles at ecphorizer.com, seem to have to do with this thoughts about, the Zodiac case.)

Penn has talked about, "Lewis Carroll"

(And I think I know why):

In reading about the Jack the Ripper case, you see that this was another "theory", on someone's part. (It was 'stated' that Lewis Carroll did word-games 'within' his writings, so hence, someone came up with that "theory".

(I have not read Penn's self-published 'book', Times 17. However, I have seen statements from people (on a forum board) who have read it.)

He mentioned, "Invisible Geometry".

(It is also referred to as, "Sacred Geometry", from what I have read about it.)

I think I know where he got that idea from:
Jack the Ripper case.

(Another "theory", on someone's part): Some believe that Jack the Ripper,
may have been trying to (by using the crime scene locations),
draw something on the map. (using Invisible Geometry) The common thing stated is: Maybe it was a Pentagram.
However, if you take a look, you see that the dots (of the locations) do not look anything like, a Pentagram.)

You see, all of this has been stated BEFORE. (in the Jack the Ripper case)

(Penn is 'trying' to make everyone believe that, he came up with it.)

Anyway, Penn is a "COPYCAT" er,
but I highly doubt that he is the same "COPYCAT" er.
as the Zodiac.

(However, I would find it hard to believe,
"if" Penn had not realized that:
Zodiac was a "COPYCAT" er.)

Penn (a "Copycat" er)

is trying to COPYCAT

Zodiac (a "Copycat" er)


and, Penn is trying to "COPYCAT",
the "theory" (stated by others), in regard to the Jack the Ripper case

(trying to apply it to, the Zodiac case)

If you cut through all of the babble-babble of the Zodiac

(and you cut through the babble-babble of Penn)

you would be able to see what is going on,

with both of them.

(But, some people are too busy trying to solve the "ciphers", and what-not)

So they don't "see", anything else.
(That is right before their eyes.)

Edited by billiemichele, 14 October 2012 - 06:34 AM.

#174    billiemichele


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Posted 14 October 2012 - 06:44 AM

I cannot edit the posting again, so one more quick addition to this:


That is real interesting, because I think that is "possibly" how the Zodiac found HIS victims.

(Added addition)

When I stated that, what I meant was:

First found them in YEARBOOKS,

and then, did further research on them.
(Possibly also on their father, as well.)

After that, then possibly stalked them/followed them.

(and got them at an "opportune" moment)

It seems to me that this guy would most likely be the type who, enjoyed the thrill of the hunt.
- He would most likely enjoy the "stalking" part of it, before he moved in for the kill.

Edited by billiemichele, 14 October 2012 - 06:55 AM.

#175    billiemichele


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Posted 14 October 2012 - 06:06 PM

Regarding: "Communication"

(If the killer of Cheri Jo Bates was the same person who then sent the communiques.)

(I believe the killer is the one who then sent the communiques.)

(Also, from what I have noticed from doing my own handwriting comparisons (using small letter "f", due to the way that they were made) the "f" on the desktop poem seems to match "f" s in the Zodiac letters.)

, let's look at what then occurred, after those communiques were sent:

As far as I am aware, the Riverside newspaper did NOT report in the newspaper, about THE CONFESSION letter (and other communiques) that were sent.

So, if they were sent by the killer, the "communication" then did not continue.

(The murder occurred in Oct. 1966, and in regard to the communiques sent in, that ended in 1967.)

Dec. 1968 (which was not very long after that),

the first (Zodiac case) occurred.

After doing the second case, the killer then sent in a letter to THREE newspapers.

(* Whether or not Vallejo P.D. believed the letter was from the actual killer,
it seems to me that there was another reason (also), that this was done:
San Francisco Examiner (I think it was) then stated in an article that:
(Chief of) Vallejo P. D. says that they need more information,
before they will believe the letter was sent by the actual killer.

They were trying to keep the killer "communicating".
(Continuing communication, could possibly provide some evidence in the case.)

(If it was the same killer in Riverside and that same person is who did the communiques in Riverside),
he has now learned that: He needs to do something in order to make sure that his communiques ARE put into the newspaper.

Because in Riverside, they did not do an article on the communiques/put his communiques in the newspaper.
(as far as I am aware)

So now, he gives "directions" (and continued to do so, with almost all of his communiques):

Dear Editor

I want you to print this on your front page.
If you do not do this, I will go on a kill rampage.

(Some of them stated:
If you do not do this,
I will do something nasty, which you know I am capable of doing.)

The "line of communication" was then open.

(San Francisco Chronicle, Paul Avery
- continued to report on, the Zodiac case.
Knowing that he was/and would, this is where Zodiac sent almost all of the communiques to.)

(Whether or not that is where he lived at.)

Killer in Riverside:

- "copycat" ("copy"cat) killer

- (If the killer is the same person who then sent in communiques)
A "communicating" killer

(This also involves the "copycat" ting, as well.)

- (From doing my own handwriting comparison analysis, I have determined that the "f" on the desk looks amazingly similar to, "f" s in the Zodiac letters.)

time period

1968 - ....

Zodiac case:

"copycat" ("copy"cat) killer

- (If the killer is the same person who then sent in communiques):
A "communicating" killer

(This also involved the "copycat" ting, as well. Who the person was copycatting, which was Jack the Ripper/and, his letters.)

(Two rounds of)

1966 - 1967

1968 - .....

"Copy"cat killer (both cases. Included, sending in communiques, same as the one that they were copycatting: Jack the Ripper)

("Copy"catted the same thing)

(Same type of 'personality' seen in the letters, in the two cases)

(In regard to the writings, the "f" s seem to match.
Which is what I compared.)

Lastly, what are the astronomical odds that:

COPYcat killer (of Jack the Ripper)
in the same place (CA)
in the same time period,

(- handwriting matches
- writing "style" matches)

would "not" be the same killer/person.

(i.e.: It would not be astronomical if it was the same person.)

(It would be astronimical, "if" it had not been.)

I think it is the same killer AND the same letter-writer.


And if that is the case, then police have made the same mistake that was made in this case:

Visalia Ransacker/East Area Rapist/Original Night Stalker

"Visalia Ransacker"

(He then started going to different locations)

In the newspaper, it then became:
"East Area Rapist"

(When direction changed from north to south, it then became this, in the newspaper.
However, he had also "evolved".
Went from: breaking into houses
(but even at the end of the Visalia case, he then:
was trying to take the young daughter to the backyard (I think to, rape her, which he later did in the EAR cases),
and when her father tried to protect his daughter, he shot him in the stomach (which killed him.)
He then, kicked the young girl, and left.

(He then continued breaking into homes, and as usual, took small things of little value.
He was not after, stuff. He was after, people. Which will later come out in the case.)

Police detective on stakeout sees the guy (on bicycle. Stolen bicycles, which it will become known that he sometimes rode to and from crime scenes) had an intention on questioning the guy, when he: shot at th detective, which sent flying glass into his eyes. He then escaped.

"Original Night Stalker"

(He has now worked his way up to, not only)

> breaking into houses,
>> raping the females,
>>> he now also: kills everyone in the house. (which are also, witnesses.)

There as one officer who did not make the mistake:

The detective in Visalia,
always believed that:

Visalia Ransacker
East Area Rapist
Original Night Stalker

were one and the same.

(He was right.)

EAR and Original Night Stalker have been tied through DNA.(not very long ago)

(Because there was not a known "rape" in Visalia,
they are unable to compare DNA with those cases.)

(It is unfortunate that they cannot find some other "source" of DNA, in one or more of the Visalia cases,
that can be used for comparison. A "hair" that fell from his head, or something.)

But, he usually wore such things as: (full-face) toboggans and hoods.

(Or, maybe a fingerprint, in one or more of the Visalia Cases.)

(He may have worn gloves, in most of the cases.)

You see,

....if this guy did cases in different locations (Riverside, Vallejo, Napa, San Francisco) (possibly one in Los Angeles),
well....that could put a real damper on the investigation.

(And many times different police departments do not like to work "together" on things.)

(Stated in a Zodiac letter after doing the case in San Francisco):

"I shall change the way"

The guy had already been, "changing the way" (s) - including, "different locations".

(If the same guy did the case in Riverside/and the letter-writer was the killer in that case):

BY _______


"She isn't the first
and she won't be the last"

(I think she most likely was the first, but who knows that as a "fact".
"If" she wasn't, the question would have to be asked:

Who (most likely a "female")
and Where
did he kill before.

Of course, we wouldn't know the answer to that one.

(It is stated that they do have DNA in the Riverside case, however.

I think I read that this includes:
There was "hair in the palm of Cheri Jo Bates' hand".
There was "skin underneath her fingernails".)

It is stated that they have DNA in the Zodiac case. ('partial profile')
If that is true, have they ever "compared" the two cases?
"If" not, why not?

"If" they did, what was the finding on that ?

How come nothing has been stated about this? (by them. Police, and D.O.J.) ...

Edited by billiemichele, 14 October 2012 - 06:52 PM.

#176    jeckyl51


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Posted 02 December 2012 - 10:34 PM

Some of the FBI files relating to the DNA were released in response to an FOIA request. These FBI files are revealing as they give the suspects name, blocked out of course, but with enough information to make some conclusions. I believe that the identity of the suspect 'Barnett' can be know with a little effort. If we look at the first file the blocked out area pertaining to the suspect indicates 18 or 19 character spaces. Additionally, we can deduce that the first name which is eleven (11) characters is longer than the last seven (7) characters, the first name ends the sentence and the FBI would not abbreviate the name at the end of a line. We can base this on the fact that Cheri Jo Bates is configured this way in the document and not as Bates, Cheri Jo, we can correctly assume that the suspect is then as stated, otherwise the letter count would have to change. If we assume that this person was in Cheri’s class then we can narrow down the number of persons who could fit. C. W. seems to fit the configuration, additionally there does not seem to be a web presence for C.W. which would fit if he was out of the country in Guam. This is total speculation but we might have some additional information to narrow down at least the supposed suspect.

#177    regi



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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:18 PM

Edited: Wrong case... I was thinking of  the Bessy Aardsma case. :whistle:

Edited by regi, 03 December 2012 - 04:13 PM.

#178    jeckyl51


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Posted 06 February 2013 - 03:59 AM

I guess the whole point in knowing who the suspect is would be to understand why the Riverside Police were so fixated on this suspect.  We know through the DNA evidence that their prime suspect DNA does not match the murderers DNA.  However, that does not necessarily rule him out of suspicion.  It is possible that the DNA was contaminated or he may not have been the murderer but may know the murderer and have some envolvment which could make him a possible accomplice.  I have always wondered if the murderer was not a local bully, a shadowy character known by many with enough power over  just a few who knew he was the murderer.  The other possiblity is that the murderer was the son or relation to someone high up in local governement and was being protected without the knowledge of the detectives investigating the case.  That would explain the Riverside Police being fixated on the Barnett character. There would not need to be a massive coverup, just a few well placed omissions in the police investigation.  Possibly by only one person, one of the officers or detectives on the case, a supervisor, chief of police or the prosecuter.  It would only take one well placed individual to coverup and move suspicion to another person.  Unfortunately, they did not figure that DNA would someday exonerate there prime suspect.  The prosecuter would not bring Barnett to trial for lack of evidence.  This would seem to rule the prosecuter out since he could have closed the case, and convicted an innocent person thereby covering up the real murderer but becoming a murderer himself.  therefore, we can rule out the prosecuter.  That leaves us with even better placed individuals for a coverup.  The next thing we need to do is to find any connections between Cheri's classmates and the police.  If there are connections they need to be investigated and ruled out to either put this theory to bed or find the murderer.

#179    billiemichele


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Posted 18 November 2013 - 07:02 AM

(In reply to)  jeckyl51
In regard to the DNA in Riverside (Cheri Jo Bates case), compared to the DNA from (Riverside P.D.'s "favorite suspect", and seems to have been the "only" one who they came-up-with),
it was stated that the DNA did not match.

(Which, is not surprising.)

Personally, I never believed that guy (their "favorite suspect") was the guy who did it.

(And at the very least,)
everyone - including police,
should have considered the possibility (all along/and all this time) that: maybe that isn't the guy.

But, you know how some people are.

Don't have anyone else to pin-it-on, so just keep 'trying' to stick-with-it.

(In the meantime, the actual killer is getting away.)

Although, I really doubt that Riverside P.D. put (all of their nest-egg in THAT one basket) either.
(Let's hope not, anyway.)

(It was also not surprising), in regard to the Zodiac case,
when: That DNA, did not match DNA of Arthur Leigh Allen.

Personally, I never believed he was who did the Zodiac case.

Maybe that was a shocker to some people, for example: Tom Voigt online (& some of his, loyal, croonies)
(I really doubt it was much of a shock to him, but then he had to try to find someone else to "try" to point the finger at.)
Now, it seems like he has a a new 'suspect', about each week.


In both of these cases, it isn't surprising that it turned out to NOT be, the "favorite" suspect.
(Or, should I actually say: Only one they could "come-up-with".)

In both of these cases, it was someone who they,
do-not-know WHO did it.
(And, that shouldn't *surprise* anyone.)

And in regard to the Cheri Jo Bates case
since it now seems to me that: This case was done by a "Copy"cat killer (tried to "talk like" Jack the Ripper in the letter),
and the victim's throat was cut,

I think Riverside may have had it *wrong*, when they believed that:
The killer was possibly "mad" at the victim (Cheri Jo Bates)

Possibly wasn't, mad, at the victim at all (Possibly just did the case, to try to get into the newspaper)

(And, the person may not have even known her.)

i.e.: If you have a "Copy"cat killer on your hands,
well then...what might you expect, he might do to the victim.

(For example:
Say that the person is going to "Copy"cat Jack the Ripper case.
Say that he starts with, the "first victim".
This was stated about the "first victim", of Jack the Ripper.

"Her throat was cut from ear to ear.")

So, what do you think this person might do, to the victim?

(It was stated that there were "seven slash marks" across the throat, of Cheri Jo Bates.)

"She was nearly decapitated."

(Well you see, if this person was trying to "Copy"cat the Jack the Ripper case,
he possibly was not "mad" at this victim.
i.e.: That would not be the "reason", that he did that.)

However, I can see that (if he was trying to "Copy"cat Jack the Ripper, and police were not aware of that),
they might think that the killer was possibly, "mad", at this victim.

Did they, too (like everyone else) not notice, that the guy tried to "talk like" Jack the Ripper in that letter?
(I guess they didn't.)

(Anyway, I have "informed", including sending the information to the FBI, what I noticed in this case.)

Both in, this case, and the later Zodiac case.

About this guy "Copy"catting the Jack the Ripper case,
and about some other things as well.

(So, whether they were or were not aware of it before, they are aware of it now.)

And, I didn't just "tell" them this (in one line).
I "showed them", exactly what was noticed.

(The information was rather, lengthy.)

My statements, were not what was lengthy.

Everything that was noticed, "about this case", is what was lengthy.
(Because this guy left a "trail" of it, all over the place. That is why it was, lengthy.)

But it ALL references, the SAME ONE THING.
(He just made, many references, to the same one thing. Is all.)

But in order to show this, you have to show, all of the references that he made.
(And I am sure that, there are more than likely some others that I missed, too.
But that does not matter, because they are all going to be references to the SAME ONE THING, same as the rest of them are.)

(I am interested in the Fairfield letter.
The one that has the drawing, and says:

Bloody Knife of the Zodiac

("If" that was from him, it seems what he may have done is, just changed the name of, "Ripper", to:

Anyway, I noticed so many references made (in the Zodiac case) to
Jack the Ripper/Jack the Ripper case
JFK/JFK Assassination case,

that I don't even try to look for any more of them.

(Waste of time, because after noticing so many, I know that they are just going to be a reference to the same thing anyway.)

#180    billiemichele


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Posted 19 November 2013 - 01:51 AM

I remember reading about the scenerio in regard to the "story", involving this person. (I don't remember where, online, I read about it at though. I want to say it is on Tom Voigt's site somewhere.) But the "story" was something like:

Some guy "told" police (whether true or not), that this guy (who became, their 'suspect'), had: asked him to go to the (crime scene) location, "to help him find his watch.

(I don't believe that 'story', by the way.)

Anyway, I think it was "stated" to police (whether true or not) that: This guy (who became their 'suspect'), was mad at Cheri Jo Bates, for going out with someone else.

But that when police questioned him, he stated something like: He was not mad at Cheri Jo Bates about anything. He had a girlfriend, (and that either he, or he and his girlfriend both) were friends with Cheri Jo Bates.

(I usually "save" things like that that I come across, on my computer. I would imagine that I did "save" the info. that I read, but it was more than likely on the computer that I used to have (not the one I have now). However, if I do come across it on my computer, I will let you know (and post it.)  I cannot repeat what I read, word for word, but I am stating it my memory, of what I read.

I want to say that I did see it somewhere on Tom Voigt's site, but I am not sure that is where it was stated at.

(And if I recall correctly, I think I saw the guy's "real name" somewhere, too.)
(And if I recall correctly, I think something was stated about him (a student), was also a "football player". (And wasn't it stated that Cheri Jo Bates was a cheerleader. Both in high school, at during this first year at college.)

In regard to what the other guy (supposedly) "told" police, you also have to keep in mind that: I would imagine that after this crime occurred, there were more than likely some "rumors" going around the school. (Like there usually are in all "schools", when something occurs.)

And not just in schools.
For example: When some murder case (and especially one that seems a bit strange), doesn't usually occur, in some small rural area,
many of the "local folk" like to start "rumors".  
For example: When it came to the Keddie murders, that occurred at a cabin.
There were "rumors" GALORE, after that case occurred. (and some of the "locals" STILL tell "rumors", even today, on the Keddie murders forum board.)

Edited by billiemichele, 19 November 2013 - 02:05 AM.

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