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Plato's Atlantis -- Made Up or Based on Fact?


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#16    booNyzarC

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 05:02 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 02 September 2010 - 04:17 AM, said:

Great to see this, even though I was taking a small UM break and don't want to hog the thread, I will make my own view on your post short and to the point to start.

Was Atlantis a real place?

*snip*
I love your posts Puzz; they are so full of actual thought and insight.  I can't say that I agree with the reality of Atlantis, but I admire your passion and deep thought about the idea greatly.  My hat is off to you with the deepest respect.


#17    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 05:14 AM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 02 September 2010 - 05:02 AM, said:

I love your posts Puzz; they are so full of actual thought and insight.  I can't say that I agree with the reality of Atlantis, but I admire your passion and deep thought about the idea greatly.  My hat is off to you with the deepest respect.
Thank you, how nice for you to say, I truly appreciate that because it is with passion and deep thought I ponder it all.

"The agony and the irony, they're killing me"
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#18    Qoais

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 05:14 AM

I dunno Puz.  Seems logical to me that people would live in a high protected place from which they could keep an eye on their crops and grazing cattle in the plains below.  

I mean, one can see that crops won't grow on a rocky promontory which is what Athens mostly was, and yet the city still exists to this day.

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Modern Athens:

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#19    Ostanes

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 05:27 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 September 2010 - 04:29 AM, said:

Plato describes exactly where Atlantis is, in front of the Pillars of Hercules.
Exactly.

Plato also describes Atlantis as being an island continent as big as Libya and Asia put together which Antarctica is.

Plato also describes Atlantis as being in the middle of the real ocean which Antarctica is.

"This power came forth out of the Atlantic Ocean, for in those days the Atlantic was navigable; and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya and Asia put together, and was the way to other islands, and from these you might pass to the whole of the opposite continent which surrounded the true ocean; for this sea which is within the Straits of Heracles is only a harbour, having a narrow entrance, but that other is a real sea, and the surrounding land may be most truly called a boundless continent." -- Plato, Timaeus, 360 B.C.

Scholars Athanasius Kircher and Rand and Rose Flem-Ath have already demonstrated the identity.

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Interesting how Plutarch, who lived some 600 years AFTER Solon, gives the names of two Egyptian Priests which are never mentioned in the preceding 600 years, by anyone. And still, there is no evidence of an Atlantis story in Egypt. By that, or any other name.
Does that mean you don't believe in Troy?

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Two things wrong with Crantors story:  1) Ancient Egyptians DID NOT have prophets.
LOL.

And you know that how?

"And it came to pass in the morning that his [Pharaoh's] spirit was troubled; and he sent and called for all the magicians of Egypt, and all the wise man thereof: and Pharaoh told them his dream; but there was none that could interpret them unto Pharaoh." -- Genesis 41:8

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2) There is no evidence that any such tale was ever written on pillars in Egypt.
I disagree.

The pillars of Sais.

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Edited by Ostanes, 02 September 2010 - 05:30 AM.


#20    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 05:33 AM

View PostOstanes, on 02 September 2010 - 03:18 AM, said:

All myths are based in fact.

Antarctica matches Plato's description of an island continent in the world ocean.

The reason why Atlas holds the world on his shoulders is because Antarctica is at the south pole.
I am understanding you.

Here's the South Pole 9600BC and there is someone holding up the Pole, he's not on it but he looks to be holding it up...in case no one really gets what you might mean in this respect.
Orion is holding up the South Celestial Pole. He may be Atlas. You can also see the River Eridanus that 'Phaethon' falls into.

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and here is the North Pole, same time 9600BC...Heracles is at the North Celestial Pole and he's completely encircling it with his club.

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Make of it what you will but to me it's very meaningful.

PS: I meant to add if you look at Orion and Heracles, both appear to have a club and might have been interpreted as twins.

All taken from CyberSky by me, no link.

Edited by The Puzzler, 02 September 2010 - 06:01 AM.

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#21    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 05:48 AM

View PostQoais, on 02 September 2010 - 05:14 AM, said:

I dunno Puz.  Seems logical to me that people would live in a high protected place from which they could keep an eye on their crops and grazing cattle in the plains below.  

I mean, one can see that crops won't grow on a rocky promontory which is what Athens mostly was, and yet the city still exists to this day.

Posted Image

Modern Athens:

Posted Image
Nice pics Q.

When the rock of the Acropolis was covered in top soil it would have looked like a hill and been quite sustainable for farming as the good nutriented top soil was still on top of the hill. It could have been the original Mt Olympus even. It could have had metres of dirt over it, you wouldn't have seen any of the rock until it was exposed by the flooding water.

I'll just add a tie in to Troy and recalling also that Troy was settled by Dardanus who had escaped a flood and only the tops of Samothrace remained, he got to Ilium and after a long time on the mountain of Ida, scared of more flooding, they finally descended to the plain. Plato tells us this in The Laws.

Edited by The Puzzler, 02 September 2010 - 06:07 AM.

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#22    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 06:13 AM

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Plato also describes Atlantis as being an island continent as big as Libya and Asia put together which Antarctica is.

Libya was the known (coastal) portions of Africa and Asia the known portions of Asia Minor (ie. Turkey). And you're still not getting that Plato said Atlantis was "in front of" the Pillars of Hercules. Antarctica definitely is not.

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Plato also describes Atlantis as being in the middle of the real ocean which Antarctica is.

You do know that the Atlantis is a 'REAL' ocean, right?

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Scholars Athanasius Kircher and Rand and Rose Flem-Ath have already demonstrated the identity.

Scholars? Bit of an oxymoron, if ever there was one.

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Does that mean you don't believe in Troy?

Troy was never a myth, it was a legend that even the Greeks believed. Whether it was located specifically where the site known as Troy now stands or was close by has been the question, but both Greeks and Romans believed it to be in Western Anatolia.

The Judeo-Christian Bible is not evidence of Ancient Egyptian religious practices. Kmt_sesh could tell you that much.

I see two cartouches in that picture of pillars you've posted. Cartouches which would hold the names of Egyptian Pharaohs. Nothing there to indicate a story of a lost continent, though. Also, read Plato's Timaeus again. NOWHERE will you find mention of the story being written on pillars. It specifically says "sacred registers" which would imply sacred writings, likely on papyrus and kept in a secure location such as a temple.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#23    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 06:21 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 September 2010 - 06:13 AM, said:

Libya was the known (coastal) portions of Africa and Asia the known portions of Asia Minor (ie. Turkey). And you're still not getting that Plato said Atlantis was "in front of" the Pillars of Hercules. Antarctica definitely is not.
cormac

Only if you assume the Pillars of Heracles are not the actual Poles. To me, it's the obvious answer, the original Pillars, important to the Phoenicians, since Heracles was really their God, the Tyrian Heracles, how did they sail such long distances otherwise, of course they used the Pillars of Heracles...they sailed by the North and South Star - hence imo the Pillars of Heracles were reverred by the Phoenicians. Again substantiated by Herodotus when he visits the Temple of Heracles in Phoenicia and relays to us how their Heracles is immortal, just like the Egyptian one, their Heracles is NOT the Greek hero of myth.

Edited by The Puzzler, 02 September 2010 - 06:22 AM.

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#24    Ostanes

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 06:23 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 September 2010 - 06:13 AM, said:

Libya was the known (coastal) portions of Africa and Asia the known portions of Asia Minor (ie. Turkey).
Exactly.  You're simply proving the point.

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And you're still not getting that Plato said Atlantis was "in front of" the Pillars of Hercules. Antarctica definitely is not.
In fact, it is.

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You do know that the Atlantis is a 'REAL' ocean, right?
Atlantis is not an ocean.  Atlantis is an island continent in the real ocean.

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Scholars? Bit of an oxymoron, if ever there was one.
Do you know what a scholar is?

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Troy was never a myth, it was a legend that even the Greeks believed.
The historical record says otherwise.

"Men once claimed that ancient Troy was a myth and that the Labyrinth of Minos was fiction; but archaeologists have unearthed the Troy of Greek legends and the Labyrinth of Crete." -- Drusilla D. Houston, historian, Wonderful Ethiopians of the Ancient Cushite Empire, Chapter XI: The Strange Races of Chaldea, 1926

"Accepting myths and legends as at least potentially accurate enabled Heinrich Schliemann to find the ruins of Troy, and enabled Helge Ingstad to find L'Anse aux Meadows, the Newfoundland site that authenticated the idea that the Norse had visited America 500 years before Columbus." -- Andrew O'Hehir, journalist, August 2005

"Archaeologists claim to have unearthed the remains of the 3,500-year-old palace of Ajax, the warrior-king who according to Homer’s Iliad was one of the most revered fighters in the Trojan War.  Classicists hailed the discovery, made on a small Greek island, as evidence that the myths recounted by Homer in his epic poem were based on historical fact." --  John Carr, journalist, March 2006

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The Judeo-Christian Bible is not evidence of Ancient Egyptian religious practices. Kmt_sesh could tell you that much.
Why?  Because you don't think Jews are credible sources?

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I see two cartouches in that picture of pillars you've posted. Cartouches which would hold the names of Egyptian Pharaohs. Nothing there to indicate a story of a lost continent, though. Also, read Plato's Timaeus again. NOWHERE will you find mention of the story being written on pillars. It specifically says "sacred registers" which would imply sacred writings, likely on papyrus and kept in a secure location such as a temple.

cormac
You didn't live in ancient times and Plato and Proclus did.  Hmmm...I think I'll believe Plato and Proclus.

Edited by Ostanes, 02 September 2010 - 06:32 AM.


#25    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 06:58 AM

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In fact, it is.

Had to turn the globe in order to make that work, didn't you. Creating your own facts now?

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Atlantis is not an ocean. Atlantis is in the real ocean.

Typo on my part, I meant Atlantic, but you should have figured that out.

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Do you know what a scholar is?

Yes, and in the context of a discussion of Atlantis, Kircher took a dive off the deep end and Rand and Rose Flem-Ath, two librarians turned writers aren't much better.

And yet, there is nothing in your three quotes that shows evidence that the location known today as Troy IS Troy. No inscriptions whatsoever make that claim and the only indications of language are Luwian, which is Anatolian and not Greek based. Nor that the 3500 year old palace actually belonged to someone named Ajax. Nor was the Labyrinth of Minos ever claimed to be a palace, yet that's what it is and it (obviously) never held a minotaur within its walls.

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Why because you don't think Jews are credible sources?

No, because the Bible was written by Jews and is therefore one-sided.

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You didn't live in ancient times and Plato did. Hmmm...I think I'll believe Plato.

Plato didn't say what you claim he said.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#26    Ostanes

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 07:01 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 September 2010 - 06:58 AM, said:

Had to turn the globe in order to make that work, didn't you. Creating your own facts now?
Antarctica wasn't always at the South Pole unless you think all those polar dinosaurs, warm water corals, and temperate forests found on the South Pole were living in freezing cold temperatures.

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it (obviously) never held a minotaur within its walls.
You have absolutely no evidence of that.

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No, because the Bible was written by Jews and is therefore one-sided.
At least the Jews have a side.

You have no evidence.

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Plato didn't say what you claim he said.
Obviously you've never read Plato.

Edited by Ostanes, 02 September 2010 - 07:06 AM.


#27    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 07:05 AM

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Only if you assume the Pillars of Heracles are not the actual Poles. To me, it's the obvious answer..

To you, everything is the obvious answer. Until the next one comes along and then it's the obvious answer. You're kind of running out of places for obvious answers.

Plato said what he said, no more and no less. Reinterpreting what he said does not make any other place Atlantis.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#28    Ostanes

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 07:09 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 September 2010 - 07:05 AM, said:

Plato said what he said, no more and no less. Reinterpreting what he said does not make any other place Atlantis.
Good thing we have Athanasius Kircher's Egyptian map proving Antarctica is Atlantis.

Posted Image


#29    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 07:14 AM

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Antarctica wasn't always at the South Pole unless you think all those polar dinosaurs, warm water corals, and temperate forests found on the South Pole were living in freezing temperatures.

Antarctica hasn't been anywhere else BUT the South Pole within human (HSS) history, i.e. 200,000 years. Where it was during the time of the dinosaurs is irrelevant.

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You have absolutely no evidence of that.

So now you're claiming minotaurs are real too?

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At least the Jews have a side.

You have no evidence.

You obviously don't know anything about Ancient Egyptian society.

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Obviously you've never read Plato.

More times than I care to count.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#30    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 07:17 AM

View PostOstanes, on 02 September 2010 - 07:09 AM, said:

Good thing we have Athanasius Kircher's Egyptian map proving Antarctica is Atlantis.

Posted Image


Wrong. Down is North, see the arrow. Flip the picture. That places America on the left, Africa and Spain (called Hyperia on the map) on the right and "Atlantis" is right in the middle of the Atlantic.

cormac

Edited by cormac mac airt, 02 September 2010 - 07:18 AM.

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus




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