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Plato's Atlantis -- Made Up or Based on Fact?


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#31    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 07:18 AM

I'd like to comment on the very first post. There was a whole section there about dragons.......

Let's run occum's razor down the vein of the past. Where would we come up with a dragon myth.

One "possible" reason, they were real. Unfortunately we don't have much to go on there. The best we have walking around while man was known to be present was the komodo (sp?) dragon. again unlikely because size doesn't add up to myth. Well what could they have found? Bones possibly, and not very unlikely. Let's say you ran across a giant bone sticking out of the ground. "Poof" giants are real. Even though that's another thread.  So now we have giant bones. Set aside the giant myth, and sorry to go off track.
Ok so we are at finding bones, which we find all the time. Now someone collected these bones and decided to put them together.(The best they could I am sure. And most likely not anatomically correct)  There was no word for dinosaur back then, so they made a word... Dragon.

Does this seem plausible? I'm pretty sure it happened at least once like this. I seem to remember this explanation being told to me as a child.

What do I know anyway. I mean I'm just adding up items that may have been present. Or I'm on the fringe with this one. (Adding up sums that don't equate)
So I subject this to peer review and await the comments.

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#32    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 07:24 AM

View PostAus Der Box Skeptisch, on 02 September 2010 - 07:18 AM, said:

I'd like to comment on the very first post. There was a whole section there about dragons.......

Let's run occum's razor down the vein of the past. Where would we come up with a dragon myth.

One "possible" reason, they were real. Unfortunately we don't have much to go on there. The best we have walking around while man was known to be present was the komodo (sp?) dragon. again unlikely because size doesn't add up to myth. Well what could they have found? Bones possibly, and not very unlikely. Let's say you ran across a giant bone sticking out of the ground. "Poof" giants are real. Even though that's another thread.  So now we have giant bones. Set aside the giant myth, and sorry to go off track.
Ok so we are at finding bones, which we find all the time. Now someone collected these bones and decided to put them together.(The best they could I am sure. And most likely not anatomically correct)  There was no word for dinosaur back then, so they made a word... Dragon.

Does this seem plausible? I'm pretty sure it happened at least once like this. I seem to remember this explanation being told to me as a child.

What do I know anyway. I mean I'm just adding up items that may have been present. Or I'm on the fringe with this one. (Adding up sums that don't equate)
So I subject this to peer review and await the comments.

I wouldn't say you're off base. It's likely that's how many mythical creatures came into being. That and the fact that many animals were larger before the end of the last glacial period and decendants of earlier humans were probably told stories passed down by their ancestors of giant animals that once walked the earth.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#33    Leonardo

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 07:40 AM

MissionAtlantis, I originally posted this in the "Sumerians" thread, but it would be more appropriate here, I will ask the moderators to remove it from the other thread. Anyway, to my points...

In deducing why the Younger Dryas ended, and why it ended when it did, we first have to examine why it began.

As you point out, a massive pulse of freshwater entering the ocean could have initiated this but, as this article states...

Quote

Furthermore, it has yet to be demonstrated how a short-lived event, such as a bolide impact (or abrupt Arctic meltwater discharge, i.e., Tarasov and Peltier, 2005), can force a millennia-long cold event when state-of-the-art climate models require a continuous freshwater forcing for the duration of the AMOC reduction (e.g., Liu et al., 2009).


...the YD requires (according to the best models we have) a forcing mechanism that lasts the duration of the disruption.

The implication of this is rather obvious. The cessation of the Yonger Dryas could be effected by the simple fact that freshwater forcing ceased. In other words, the cooling brought about by the YD effected its own demise. There is no requirement for a catastrophic event to effect that cessation, it happens through a natural feedback mechanism.

Now, addressing your assertion that a landmass collapse into the ocean depths can effect a 2 metre drop in ocean levels, I would dearly like to see how you have arrived at this conclusion. A landmass collapse does not mean that mass simply 'vanishes', and the mass of land that was above ocean levels prior to that collapse would seem to have a rather opposite effect on sea levels than your conclusion appears to credit. I appreciate some solutions to problems are counter-intuitive, so rather than decry your solution, would ask for you to provide the calculations showing how this 2 metre drop is effected. Thanks.

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#34    Ostanes

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 07:41 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 September 2010 - 07:17 AM, said:

Wrong. Down is North, see the arrow. Flip the picture. That places America on the left, Africa and Spain (called Hyperia on the map) on the right and "Atlantis" is right in the middle of the Atlantic.

cormac
There is no island continent in the middle of the Atlantic Ocean.

However, there is an island continent called Antarctica that is in the middle of the real ocean surrounded by a boundless continent exactly as Plato described it.

Posted Image

As I said, the island of Atlas holds the world on it's shoulders because Antarctica is at the South Pole.

Edited by Ostanes, 02 September 2010 - 07:48 AM.


#35    Leonardo

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 07:51 AM

View PostOstanes, on 02 September 2010 - 06:23 AM, said:

The historical record says otherwise.

Ostanes,

While I don't wish to be pedantic about what is myth and what is legend, I can't deny a certain, child-like, glee in being pedantic!  :P

Cormac is entirely right in that Troy is/was a legend and Atlantis is a myth.

The difference between what comprises a legend and what comprises a myth is one that only folklorists really adhere to, but may be worth pointing out anyway.

A myth has a religious, or symbolic, basis. It is 'timeless' in the sense that it symbolises something which is a constant - such as our nature, etc. The narrative of a myth may incorporate a timeline and give it the appearance of a legend (and there is the difference), but the core of the myth is, essentially, a lesson.

A legend, on the other hand, attempts to anchor an event within a historical setting and therefore describe something which actually (well, allegedly) happened.

Plato's depiction of Atlantis was a myth. Homer's depiction of Troy, and the events surrounding it, was a legend.

Edited by Leonardo, 02 September 2010 - 07:52 AM.

In the book of life, the answers aren't in the back. - Charlie Brown

"It is a profound and necessary truth that the deep things in science are not found because they are useful; they are found because it was possible to find them."  - J. Robert Oppenheimer; Scientific Director; The Manhattan Project

"talking bull**** is not a victimless crime" - Marina Hyde, author.

#36    Ostanes

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:05 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 02 September 2010 - 07:51 AM, said:

Ostanes,

While I don't wish to be pedantic about what is myth and what is legend, I can't deny a certain, child-like, glee in being pedantic!  :P

Cormac is entirely right in that Troy is/was a legend and Atlantis is a myth.

The difference between what comprises a legend and what comprises a myth is one that only folklorists really adhere to, but may be worth pointing out anyway.

A myth has a religious, or symbolic, basis. It is 'timeless' in the sense that it symbolises something which is a constant - such as our nature, etc. The narrative of a myth may incorporate a timeline and give it the appearance of a legend (and there is the difference), but the core of the myth is, essentially, a lesson.

A legend, on the other hand, attempts to anchor an event within a historical setting and therefore describe something which actually (well, allegedly) happened.

Plato's depiction of Atlantis was a myth. Homer's depiction of Troy, and the events surrounding it, was a legend.
So you claim.

I can find nothing in the dictionary to support your case.

http://www.merriam-w...dictionary/myth

Quote

Definition of MYTH

1
a : a usually traditional story of ostensibly historical events that serves to unfold part of the world view of a people or explain a practice, belief, or natural phenomenon

http://www.merriam-w...ctionary/legend

Quote

Definition of LEGEND

1
a : a story coming down from the past; especially : one popularly regarded as historical although not verifiable
b : a body of such stories <a place in the legend of the frontier>
c : a popular myth of recent origin

The science of geomythology is involved in the business of identifying all of the scientific facts contained within myths.

"The geomythologist seeks to find the real geological event underlying a myth or legend to which it has given rise; thus he helps convert mythology back into history." -- Dorothy B. Vitaliano, geomythologist, May 1967/June 1968

"... the study of the geological foundation of human myths, an emerging discipline in the Earth sciences called 'geomythology.' This term was coined by Dorothy Vitaliano, in her pioneering book Legends of the Earth: Their Geological Origins (1973), as 'the study of the geological reality lying behind myths and legends of the past." -- Luigi Piccardi, geomythologist, Myth and Geology, 2007

"Geomythology indicates every case in which the origin of myths and legends can be shown to contain references to geological phenomena and aspects, in a broad sense including astronomical ones (comets, eclipses, meteor impacts, etc.)." -- Luigi Piccardi, geomythologist, Myth and Geology, 2007

"The interpretation of geological folklore, to be correctly and exhaustively carried out, requires the integration of knowledge in the fields of geology, archaeology, history, comparative mythology and anthropology. The geological study of mythology and legendary accounts may reveal encoded memories of past geological events, thus providing a reservoir of geological information." -- Luigi Piccardi, geomythologist, Myth and Geology, 2007

"Some geomyths actually constitute a record of major geological events." -- Dorothy B. Vitaliano, geomythologist, 2007

Edited by Ostanes, 02 September 2010 - 08:15 AM.


#37    Essan

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:08 AM

View PostOstanes, on 02 September 2010 - 05:27 AM, said:

Exactly.

Plato also describes Atlantis as being an island continent as big as Libya and Asia put together which Antarctica is.

So is Australia.  And Australia has the advantage of not having been covered in even more ice than it is today in the timeframe given by Plato .....

Anyway, why would a bunch of penquins invade the Mediterranean?

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#38    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:44 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 02 September 2010 - 07:05 AM, said:

To you, everything is the obvious answer. Until the next one comes along and then it's the obvious answer. You're kind of running out of places for obvious answers.

Plato said what he said, no more and no less. Reinterpreting what he said does not make any other place Atlantis.

cormac
Touche.

Still, he does actually say:

"called by you, the Pillars of Heracles" as the priest is telling Solon as Plato records the story in context of what was said to Solon.  How do you know Solon interpreted the Pillars of Heracles at Gades?

Solon may have known the true Pillars were the poles the Phoenicians sailed by.

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#39    Ostanes

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 08:46 AM

View PostEssan, on 02 September 2010 - 08:08 AM, said:

So is Australia.  And Australia has the advantage of not having been covered in even more ice than it is today in the timeframe given by Plato .....

Anyway, why would a bunch of penquins invade the Mediterranean?
You don't know if Antarctica was covered in ice in 10,500 B.C. because you were't there.

"Fundamentally, in counting any annual marker, we must ask whether it is absolutely unequivocal, or whether nonannual events could mimic or obscure a year. For the visible strata (and, we believe, for any other annual indicator at accumulation rates representative of central Greenland), it is almost certain that variability exists at the subseasonal or storm level, at the annual level, and for various longer periodicities (2-year, sunspot, etc.). We certainly must entertain the possibility of misidentifying the deposit of a large storm or a snow dune as an entire year or missing a weak indication of a summer and thus picking a 2-year interval as 1 year." -- Alley, R.B. et al., Visual-stratigraphic dating of the GISP2 ice core: Basis, reproducibility, and application. Journal of Geophysical Research 102(C12):26,367–26,381, 1997.

"First glance intuition is often very helpful in coming up with a good hypothesis to explain a given phenomenon, such as the hundreds of thousands of layers of ice found in places like Greenland and Antarctica. It seems down right intuitive that each layer found in these ice sheets should represent an annual cycle. After all, this seems to fit the uniformitarian paradigm so well. However, a closer inspection of the data seems to favor a much more recent and catastrophic model of ice sheet formation. Violent weather disturbances with large storms, a sudden cold snap, and high precipitation rates could very reasonably give rise to all the layers, dust bands, and isotope variations etc. that we find in the various ice sheets today." -- Sean D. Pitman, doctor, December 2006

"One problem with using ice cores or tree rings or ocean floor sediments and so on as a way to date the Earth is that one absolutely has to use certain assumptions in the dating method that cannot be tested and proven. We don't have historical records of continual and documented ice core samples going back for thousands of years, so the results need to be interpreted within the light of the assumptions that are used in the process. This is why vast differences in the ages represented in ice cores are suggested by those within the long-ages scientific community and how YEC scientists find the ice cores make sense from their perspective as well."  -- Radaractive, blogger, December 2008

Edited by Ostanes, 02 September 2010 - 08:48 AM.


#40    MissionAtlantis

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:18 AM

View PostHarte, on 02 September 2010 - 02:57 AM, said:

Made up.

Your claim that the "myth" wasn't in Greece long enough sidesteps the very real fact that the "myth" doesn't exist in the Egyptian culture either.

There is no Atlantis "myth."

Harte

Thanks, Harte. I never knew that the Atlantis myth did not exist (as you so succinctly put, "There is no Atlantis 'myth.'"). So, I guess thousands of others and myself have been living a shared delusion. Perhaps Plato never existed, either. Do you think such a disease is genetic, or is the source some potent pathogen? :ph34r:

Thanks for sharing your "opinion." Can you offer anything more than arguments to ignorance (logically fallacious)? :huh:

Please tell me your definition of "sidestep." Personally, I don't see how my argument about one researcher's claims in an Atlantis video sidesteps the issues I covered in my paragraphs 2-4 (in my first post on this thread). Would you care to offer something specific about Crantor, Egyptian islands moving west, island origins of Egyptian gods, and the like? I think these facts pertain to Egyptian culture. But then again, this could be a side-effect of the "missing myth" disease.

Is there a difference between facts, real facts and very real facts? :blink:


#41    cormac mac airt

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:18 AM

MissionAtlantis,

Quote

Your opinion is duly noted, but you haven't proven anything, except that there may have been no signs of subaerial phenomena at the drill sites conducted in the investigations you mentioned. First, I'd have to know exactly where the drilling was done. How long were the cores, and what exactly were the contents of the cores at each uniquely different layer?

I really wish I could help you. I used to have an extensive database on the core samples. Locations, depths, etc. All researched on my own time. However, over the intervening past 8 years with 2 computer crashes, 1 major move in location, burying 2 step-daughters and NO desire to write a book about something of which I could see in black and white didn't exist, I have no interest in re-researching what in my opinion is a lost cause. And no, it wasn't just what "some scientist" (i.e. NOAA) said. The information itself indicated the same thing.

While I don't remember all of the details of the information I had, what I do remember is that the core samples were of sufficient location and quantity in and around the Azores and to a depth far exceeding Plato's timeframe for Atlantis, with no indication of any kind of collapse of landmass that could be remotely mis-construed as Atlantis.

Quote

The fact that a published review of this expedition's results did not include the more controversial findings only shows that some scientists are afraid to stick their neck out and sometimes can avoid or hide evidence if it doesn't fit their world view.

That's only one possibility. The other is that, after further examination, there were no confirmed controversial findings. Do I think that all scientists are legitimate. NO. That doesn't mean that your "cringing cowards who're afraid of revealing the truth, for fear of reprisal" white-wash is any more accurate. My words, yes, but that's how you come across. Sorry.

Quote

If someone really, really disproves Atlantis to my satisfaction, then I'll gladly admit that Atlantis was a complete fiction.

Somehow I doubt that. With your apparent distrust of scientists, I think you'll always feel you're being lied to. Even if it's just in the back of your mind.

A slight exaggeration on my part, perhaps, but YOU mention the words ATLANTIS and FLOOD here and you'll see people crawl out of the woodwork (figuratively speaking, just so you know) to talk about how this or that flood MUST have had something to do with Atlantis. It happens all the time and really, REALLY gets old.

Quote

I make a hypothesis about the 2-meter drop mentioned in a 1989 Nature magazine article.

You suggested it happened, but needed corroboration. Meaning it was UN-corroborated, which amounts to here-say and therefore meaningless, IMO.

Quote

I gave what I thought were some very relevant pieces of evidence connecting Atlantis to the Sumer discussion.

You haven't even proven it existed, yet you feel you can discuss how it 'might' be related to Sumer. Isn't that the cart before the horse?

In case you haven't figured it out yet you may know all the debating techniques/terms (your 'logical fallacy' etc.), of which I refer to as "psyco-babble". I'm more of a 'shoot-from-the-hip' type. All I can say is get used to it.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#42    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 09:45 AM

View PostOstanes, on 02 September 2010 - 08:46 AM, said:

You don't know if Antarctica was covered in ice in 10,500 B.C. because you were't there.

"Fundamentally, in counting any annual marker, we must ask whether it is absolutely unequivocal, or whether nonannual events could mimic or obscure a year. For the visible strata (and, we believe, for any other annual indicator at accumulation rates representative of central Greenland), it is almost certain that variability exists at the subseasonal or storm level, at the annual level, and for various longer periodicities (2-year, sunspot, etc.). We certainly must entertain the possibility of misidentifying the deposit of a large storm or a snow dune as an entire year or missing a weak indication of a summer and thus picking a 2-year interval as 1 year." -- Alley, R.B. et al., Visual-stratigraphic dating of the GISP2 ice core: Basis, reproducibility, and application. Journal of Geophysical Research 102(C12):26,367–26,381, 1997.

"First glance intuition is often very helpful in coming up with a good hypothesis to explain a given phenomenon, such as the hundreds of thousands of layers of ice found in places like Greenland and Antarctica. It seems down right intuitive that each layer found in these ice sheets should represent an annual cycle. After all, this seems to fit the uniformitarian paradigm so well. However, a closer inspection of the data seems to favor a much more recent and catastrophic model of ice sheet formation. Violent weather disturbances with large storms, a sudden cold snap, and high precipitation rates could very reasonably give rise to all the layers, dust bands, and isotope variations etc. that we find in the various ice sheets today." -- Sean D. Pitman, doctor, December 2006

"One problem with using ice cores or tree rings or ocean floor sediments and so on as a way to date the Earth is that one absolutely has to use certain assumptions in the dating method that cannot be tested and proven. We don't have historical records of continual and documented ice core samples going back for thousands of years, so the results need to be interpreted within the light of the assumptions that are used in the process. This is why vast differences in the ages represented in ice cores are suggested by those within the long-ages scientific community and how YEC scientists find the ice cores make sense from their perspective as well."  -- Radaractive, blogger, December 2008
Not necessarily directed at you but just for information we can all use, these are events around the timeframe of 10,000BC - 8000BC so we all know approx. what was going on:
----------
c. 10,000 BC; First cave drawings of the Mesolithic period are made, with war scenes and religious scenes, beginnings of what became story telling, and morphed into acting.
c. 10,000 BC; Bottle Gourd is domesticated and used as a carrying vessel.
c. 10,000 BC; end of the most recent glaciation.
c. 9,500 BC; There is evidence of harvesting, though not necessarily cultivation, of wild grasses in Asia Minor about this time.[1][verification needed]
c. 9,500 BC; First building phase of the temple complex at Göbekli Tepe.
c. 9,300 BC; figs were apparently cultivated in the Jordan River valley.[2]
c. 9000 BC; Neolithic culture began in Ancient Near East.
c. 9000 BC: Near East: First stone structures at Jericho are built.
[edit] Old World
Asia: Cave sites near the Caspian Sea are used for human habitation.
Europe: Azilian (Painted Pebble Culture) people occupy Spain, France, Switzerland, Belgium, and Scotland.
Europe: Magdalenian culture flourishes and creates cave paintings in France.
Europe: Horse hunting begins at Solutré.
Egypt: Early sickle blades & grinding disappear and are replaced by hunting, fishing and gathering peoples who use stone tools.
Japan: The Jōmon people use pottery, fish, hunt and gather acorns, nuts and edible seeds. There are 10,000 known sites.
Mesopotamia: Three or more linguistic groups, including Sumerian and Semitic peoples share a common political and cultural way of life[citation needed].
Mesopotamia: People begin to collect wild wheat and barley probably to make malt then beer.
Norway: First traces of population in Randaberg.
Persia: The goat is domesticated.
Sahara: Bubalus Period.
[edit] Americas
North America: Paleo-Indian hunter-gatherer societies live nomadically in the countryside.
North America: Blackwater Draw forms in eastern New Mexico, evincing human activity.
North America: Folsom people flourish throughout the Southwestern United States.
North America: Settlement at the Nanu site in the Queen Charlotte Islands of modern day British Columbia begins, starting the longest continual occupation in territory now belonging to Canada.[citation needed]

In Europe and North America, the Holocene is subdivided into Preboreal, Boreal, Atlantic, Subboreal, and Subatlantic stages of the Blytt-Sernander time scale. There are many regional subdivisions for the Upper or Late Pleistocene, usually these represent locally recognized cold (glacial) and warm (interglacial) periods. The last glacial period ends with the cold Younger Dryas substage.

Circa 10,000 BC:

North America: Dire Wolf, Smilodon, Giant Beaver, Ground Sloth, Giant Imperial Mammoth (Mammuthus imperator), Jeffersonian Mammoth (Mammuthus jeffersonii), Columbian Mammoth (Mammuthus columbi), Woolly Mammoth, Mastodons, Giant Short-Faced Bear, American Cheetah, Scimitar Cats (Homotherium), American Camels, American Horses, and American Lions all become extinct.
Bering Sea: Bering land bridge from Siberia to North America covered in water.
North America: Long Island becomes an island when waters break through on the western end to the interior lake.
Europe: Permanent ecological change. The savannah-dwelling reindeer, bison, and Paleolithic hunters withdraw to the sub-Arctic, leaving the rest to forest animals like deer, aurochs, and Mesolithic foragers. (1967 McEvedy)
World: Allerod oscillation brings transient improvement in climate. Sea levels rise abruptly and massive inland flooding occurs due to glacier melt.
Circa 9700 BC: Lake Agassiz forms.

Circa 9600 BC: Younger Dryas cold period ends. Pleistocene ends and Holocene begins. Paleolithic ends and Mesolithic begins. Large amounts of previously glaciated land become habitable again.
http://en.wikipedia....h_millennium_BC

c. 9000 BC—Mediterranean—Settling on Mediterranean isles started[citation needed]
c. 9000 BC—Laacher See, northwest of Frankfurt, formed when a volcano blows out to form a caldera
c. 9000 BC—Neolithic culture begins in Ancient Near East
c. 8700–8400 BC—Britain—Star Carr site in Yorkshire, Britain inhabited by Maglemosian peoples
c. 8500 BC—Great Britain—Mesolithic hunters camp at Cramond, Prehistoric Scotland
c. 8500 BC–7370 BC; Jericho established with 2,000 inhabitants living in mud-brick houses covering 6 acres (24,000 m2) and protected by the Wall of Jericho
c. 8300 BC—Great Britain—Nomadic hunters arrive in England[citation needed]
c. 8000 BC—Norway—Øvre Eiker of Norway inhabited
c. 8000 BC—Estonia—Pulli settlement inhabited
[edit] Inventions and discoveries
c. 9000 BC—The first evidence of the keeping of sheep, in northern Iraq.[1]
c. 9000 BC—Discovery of Copper in Middle East
c. 8500 BC—Natufian culture of Western Mesopotamia is harvesting wild wheat with flint-edged sickles. (1967 McEvedy) About this time, boats are invented, and dogs domesticated in Europe. (1967 McEvedy)
c. 8500 BC—Andean peoples domesticate chili peppers and two kinds of bean.
c. 8000 BC—Mesopotamia—Agriculture in Mesopotamia
c. 8000 BC—Asia—Domestication of the pig in China and Turkey
c. 8000 BC—Middle East—Domestication of goats
c. 8000 BC—Asia—Evidence of domestication of dogs from wolves
c. 8000 BC—Middle East—Ancient flint tools from north and central Arabia belong to hunter-gatherer societies
c. 8000 BC—Middle East—Clay vessels and modeled human and animal terracotta figurines are produced at Ganj Dareh in western Iran.
c. 8000 BC—Exchange of goods, a three-dimensional combination of an accounting/inventory system and medium of exchange.
c. 8000 BC—Exchange of goods may represent the earliest pseudo-writing technology.
c. 8000 BC—People of Jericho were making bricks out of clay, then hardened them in the sun. The settlement had grown to 8–10 acres of houses and had substantial walls.[1]

In Europe and North America, the Holocene is subdivided into Preboreal, Boreal, Atlantic, Subboreal, and Subatlantic stages of the Blytt-Sernander time scale. There are many regional subdivisions for the Upper or Late Pleistocene, usually these represent locally recognized cold (glacial) and warm (interglacial) periods. The last glacial period ends with the cold Younger Dryas substage.

c. 9000 BC: Temporary global chilling, as the Gulf Stream pulls southward, and Europe ices over (1990 Rand McNally Atlas)
c. 8000 BC—World—Rising Sea[citation needed]
c. 8000 BC—Antarctica—long-term melting of the Antarctic ice sheets is commencing[citation needed]
c. 8000 BC—Asia—rising sea levels caused by postglacial warming[citation needed]
c. 8000 BC—World—Obliteration of more than 40 million animals about this time[citation needed]
c. 8000 BC—North America—The glaciers were receding and by 8,000 B.C. the Wisconsin had withdrawn completely.[citation needed]
c. 8000 BC—World—Inland flooding due to catastrophic glacier melt takes place in several regions

http://en.wikipedia....h_millennium_BC

-----------------------



What IS known is there was HUGE FLOODING AT THIS TIME.

Edited by The Puzzler, 02 September 2010 - 09:54 AM.

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#43    MissionAtlantis

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 10:11 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 02 September 2010 - 07:13 AM, said:

[From the thread: "where did the "sumerians" come from?"]
In deducing why the Younger Dryas ended, and why it ended when it did, we first have to examine why it began.

As you point out, a massive pulse of freshwater entering the ocean could have initiated this but, as this article states...

...the YD requires (according to the best models we have) a forcing mechanism that lasts the duration of the disruption.

The implication of this is rather obvious. The cessation of the Yonger Dryas could be effected by the simple fact that freshwater forcing ceased. In other words, the cooling brought about by the YD effected its own demise. There is no requirement for a catastrophic event to effect that cessation, it happens through a natural feedback mechanism.

Leonardo, this is awesome. It's because of things like this that my evolving hypothesis has changed and some elements have become scrapped. Facts are facts. Gotta love 'em. One day, I may find enough facts like this to close the door on the Atlantis question, once and for all proving it or disproving it.

It has long been my understanding that a fresh water cap kept the Earth in this "Big Freeze." And naturally, it makes sense that the fresh water cap would have to be replenished.

Now, I have a minor bone to pick on your statement "according to the best models we have." "Best" according to whom? The way you state it, it seems to come from an "omniscient" source, but I thought that "guy" was banned from the forum, ages ago? At least according to Jaylemurph, he was.

You bring up a hypothesis which I have entertained, that the YD wore itself out. That is an interesting possibility. But that is the nature of hypotheses. Until they are proven, they remain only educated guesses plausible possibilities.

If Atlantis existed and subsided about 9620 BCE, then one would expect at least one mega-tsunami. Under the right conditions, such a mega-tsunami could have been as high as 3 kilometers at landfall on the European and African coasts. Such a wave might easily have stirred up any fresh water cap, abruptly ending the YD. I see now, though, that any source of replenishment would have to have been affected by such a mega-tsunami, otherwise the YD would have continued. I can think of some possibilities. What are your thoughts on this?

View PostLeonardo, on 02 September 2010 - 07:13 AM, said:

[From the thread: "where did the "sumerians" come from?"]
Now, addressing your assertion that a landmass collapse into the ocean depths can effect a 2 metre drop in ocean levels, I would dearly like to see how you have arrived at this conclusion. A landmass collapse does not mean that mass simply 'vanishes', and the mass of land that was above ocean levels prior to that collapse would seem to have a rather opposite effect on sea levels than your conclusion appears to credit. I appreciate some solutions to problems are counter-intuitive, so rather than decry your solution, would ask for you to provide the calculations showing how this 2 metre drop is effected. Thanks.

Counterintuitive, indeed! It seems rather straightforward to me, but I've had to explain this point more than once, so I can appreciate your difficulty.

Subsidence certainly does not mean disappearance. Yet, subsidence means that a body of land no longer occupies a given, three-dimensional volume of space. On Earth, something has to fill that new vacuum (on the Moon, it wouldn't). Where there was island, there is suddenly a void which is rapidly filled with water several hundred cubic kilometers of it. That water has to come from someplace, thus lowering sea level worldwide.

Try to picture it this way: a flat stretch of beachfront property suddenly sinks. Perhaps there was a salt dome underneath which is gradually dissolved from groundwater incursion. Would high tide rush in to fill this subsided patch of beachfront property? You bet it would! Any subsiding island is a "hole" that is rapidly filled by water. It is a rather simple calculation to take a body of land (1-2 times the size of Texas) subsided roughly 1000 meters in the ocean and see that it would produce roughly a 2-meter drop in sea levels worldwide.

Another analogy which might help is that of an old-style, standalone bathtub with a huge dent in the bottom. That dent takes up space. Filling the tub requires less water than it would otherwise have needed. Now, hammer down that huge dent. If you do it while water is still in the tub (an unlikely scenario), you get a lowering of the water level already there. What has to fill the space once occupied by the huge dent. Regardless of when you hammer down the dent, the tub will now be able to hold more water.

Hope that helps.


#44    The Puzzler

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:05 AM

View PostMissionAtlantis, on 02 September 2010 - 10:11 AM, said:

Leonardo, this is awesome. It's because of things like this that my evolving hypothesis has changed and some elements have become scrapped. Facts are facts. Gotta love 'em. One day, I may find enough facts like this to close the door on the Atlantis question, once and for all proving it or disproving it.

It has long been my understanding that a fresh water cap kept the Earth in this "Big Freeze." And naturally, it makes sense that the fresh water cap would have to be replenished.

Now, I have a minor bone to pick on your statement "according to the best models we have." "Best" according to whom? The way you state it, it seems to come from an "omniscient" source, but I thought that "guy" was banned from the forum, ages ago? At least according to Jaylemurph, he was.

You bring up a hypothesis which I have entertained, that the YD wore itself out. That is an interesting possibility. But that is the nature of hypotheses. Until they are proven, they remain only educated guesses plausible possibilities.

If Atlantis existed and subsided about 9620 BCE, then one would expect at least one mega-tsunami. Under the right conditions, such a mega-tsunami could have been as high as 3 kilometers at landfall on the European and African coasts. Such a wave might easily have stirred up any fresh water cap, abruptly ending the YD. I see now, though, that any source of replenishment would have to have been affected by such a mega-tsunami, otherwise the YD would have continued. I can think of some possibilities. What are your thoughts on this?



Counterintuitive, indeed! It seems rather straightforward to me, but I've had to explain this point more than once, so I can appreciate your difficulty.

Subsidence certainly does not mean disappearance. Yet, subsidence means that a body of land no longer occupies a given, three-dimensional volume of space. On Earth, something has to fill that new vacuum (on the Moon, it wouldn't). Where there was island, there is suddenly a void which is rapidly filled with water several hundred cubic kilometers of it. That water has to come from someplace, thus lowering sea level worldwide.

Try to picture it this way: a flat stretch of beachfront property suddenly sinks. Perhaps there was a salt dome underneath which is gradually dissolved from groundwater incursion. Would high tide rush in to fill this subsided patch of beachfront property? You bet it would! Any subsiding island is a "hole" that is rapidly filled by water. It is a rather simple calculation to take a body of land (1-2 times the size of Texas) subsided roughly 1000 meters in the ocean and see that it would produce roughly a 2-meter drop in sea levels worldwide.

Another analogy which might help is that of an old-style, standalone bathtub with a huge dent in the bottom. That dent takes up space. Filling the tub requires less water than it would otherwise have needed. Now, hammer down that huge dent. If you do it while water is still in the tub (an unlikely scenario), you get a lowering of the water level already there. What has to fill the space once occupied by the huge dent. Regardless of when you hammer down the dent, the tub will now be able to hold more water.

Hope that helps.
Displacement.
Mega-tsunami in Canada c. 8000BC as well as this:

Approximately 8,000 BC, a massive volcanic landslide off of Mt. Etna, Sicily caused a megatsunami which devastated the eastern Mediterranean coastline on three continents.
http://en.wikipedia....iki/Megatsunami

No doubt all caused by the melting and change in geological conditions.

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#45    Leonardo

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Posted 02 September 2010 - 11:06 AM

View PostMissionAtlantis, on 02 September 2010 - 10:11 AM, said:

Leonardo, this is awesome. It's because of things like this that my evolving hypothesis has changed and some elements have become scrapped. Facts are facts. Gotta love 'em. One day, I may find enough facts like this to close the door on the Atlantis question, once and for all — proving it or disproving it.

It has long been my understanding that a fresh water cap kept the Earth in this "Big Freeze." And naturally, it makes sense that the fresh water cap would have to be replenished.

Now, I have a minor bone to pick on your statement "according to the best models we have." "Best" according to whom? The way you state it, it seems to come from an "omniscient" source, but I thought that "guy" was banned from the forum, ages ago? At least according to Jaylemurph, he was.

You bring up a hypothesis which I have entertained, that the YD wore itself out. That is an interesting possibility. But that is the nature of hypotheses. Until they are proven, they remain only educated guesses — plausible possibilities.

If Atlantis existed and subsided about 9620 BCE, then one would expect at least one mega-tsunami. Under the right conditions, such a mega-tsunami could have been as high as 3 kilometers at landfall on the European and African coasts. Such a wave might easily have stirred up any fresh water cap, abruptly ending the YD. I see now, though, that any source of replenishment would have to have been affected by such a mega-tsunami, otherwise the YD would have continued. I can think of some possibilities. What are your thoughts on this?

"Best" is acording to the consensus of climate and geological scientists who develop these models. I appreciate that means the "best" is subjective, but these people do use the known facts as the basis for building their models and I would venture that "best" is therefore considerably more accurate than our speculations.

The mega-tsunami explanation suffers from one, quite obvious, flaw. To prove Atlantis existed you have to assume it did. If you do not assume this, you have no landmass to 'collapse'. Such reasoning as assuming something existed to prove its existence, is not particularly sound.

Quote

Counterintuitive, indeed! It seems rather straightforward to me, but I've had to explain this point more than once, so I can appreciate your difficulty.

Subsidence certainly does not mean disappearance. Yet, subsidence means that a body of land no longer occupies a given, three-dimensional volume of space. On Earth, something has to fill that new vacuum (on the Moon, it wouldn't). Where there was island, there is suddenly a void which is rapidly filled with water — several hundred cubic kilometers of it. That water has to come from someplace, thus lowering sea level worldwide.

Try to picture it this way: a flat stretch of beachfront property suddenly sinks. Perhaps there was a salt dome underneath which is gradually dissolved from groundwater incursion. Would high tide rush in to fill this subsided patch of beachfront property? You bet it would! Any subsiding island is a "hole" that is rapidly filled by water. It is a rather simple calculation to take a body of land (1-2 times the size of Texas) subsided roughly 1000 meters in the ocean and see that it would produce roughly a 2-meter drop in sea levels worldwide.

Another analogy which might help is that of an old-style, standalone bathtub with a huge dent in the bottom. That dent takes up space. Filling the tub requires less water than it would otherwise have needed. Now, hammer down that huge dent. If you do it while water is still in the tub (an unlikely scenario), you get a lowering of the water level already there. What has to fill the space once occupied by the huge dent. Regardless of when you hammer down the dent, the tub will now be able to hold more water.

Hope that helps.

I think Archimedes would disagree with your assessment, MA. His observation of the water in his bathtub rising as it was displaced by mass would not correlate with your reasoning that a similar, although considerably larger of course - poor old Archimedes, event would not result in a displacement of water and actually effect a rise in sea levels.

You do not make sea levels drop by dropping something into the ocean, you make the sea levels drop by taking something out of it. The mass of the hypothetical island you envisage collpasing that already existed below sea-level would not have any effect on that sea level when collapsing. The mass of that hypothetical island above sea level would have an effect, however.

I do understand the point you are trying to make, that the collapse of Atlantis increased the volume the same amount of water was filling, so the level dropped. But the reaoning you use to make this point does not tally. The hypothetical collapse of Atlantis would not increase the volume of the area the ocean would fill.

Edited by Leonardo, 02 September 2010 - 11:11 AM.

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