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Plato's Atlantis -- Made Up or Based on Fact?


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#496    Swede

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 06:51 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 27 September 2010 - 05:04 PM, said:

I'm going to leave you all with this tonight...
-------------------------

We find that there is considerable evidence both from oceanography and geology for the former existence of a large mid-ocean Atlantic land mass. Plato placed Atlantis just west of the Straits of Gibraltar. If we follow his directions to the letter, we arrive in the area of the islands of the Azores, near the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. If these were once part of a much larger island—the 400,000 square miles Plato described Atlantis as once having been—then it would answer a long-standing enigma of what happened to the Atlantic Gulf Stream during the Ice Age. The Gulf Stream originates as a western current of warm water between West Africa and South America, enters the Caribbean and Gulf of Mexico, then leaves the east coast of North America as a warm easterly current, flowing to the Azores, and turns northward to travel to Britain and Norway. It is the heat carried by the Stream that gives northern Europe a much milder, more temperate climate than it normally would have for such latitudes. This is made apparent when we realize that London exists on the same latitude as the cold and barren plains of Labrador.

Now during the Ice Age, northern Europe was covered by a thick blanket of ice. Temperatures all over the world were generally cooler at that time, but the Gulf Stream should still have been warm enough to have prevented the glacial ice from covering at least Great Britain and portions of Scandinavia. As it was, the ice buried the location where London now it under a mile of ice, and the glaciers pushed as far south in central Europe as Berlin.

The only explanation is that during the Ice Age some barrier existed in the mid-Atlantic that prevented the Gulf Stream from reaching northern Europe, and that toward the end of the Ice Age this barrier was suddenly removed and the Stream established its present route. The proposed “barrier” would have been situated exactly where Plato placed Atlantis: An island of the size and location that Plato specified would have been more than sufficient to divert the path of the Gulf Stream. What is more, it is at precisely that time Plato said Atlantis sank—11,500 B.P.—that paleoclimatologists note dramatic changes took place in ocean temperatures and European weather patterns, in part caused by a change Gulf Stream route.

Many myths and legends the world over preserve a memory of Atlantis as having been Paradise, the home of the gods and heroes—the origin point from which many peoples either received the gift of civilization, or escaped when the land was lost. Plato tells us that the fertile plain of Atlantis grew all manners of foods and vegetation, having a temperate to tropical climate, sheltered by the mountains in the north from boreal winds. As we already noted, up until twelve thousand years ago, the Gulf Stream was blocked from reaching northern Europe by the presence of Atlantis where the Azores are today. Because of this, Atlantis received most of the Stream’s warmth and tempering effects on wind and plentiful rainfall, before it was diverted back toward the south. At the same time, cold ocean currents and icy winds descending from glacial-covered northern Europe were stopped by the towering Atlantean mountainsin the north of the island. Thus, Atlantis had an ideal, garden-like climate, at a time when most of Europe and North America were in the grip of the Ice Age.

During this era, judging from Plato’s description, the Atlantean people possessed a high civilization, commanding great wealth and power. In contrast, all the known prehistoric civilizations, both in the Old World and the New, were at this time either just beginning to acquire the rudiments of civilization, or at least had a civilization on a very simple level. In Plato’s record, we read that Athens was not more than a prehistoric wooden fortress, and the people of the Nile had yet to acquire the status of a grand culture it was later to become. To them, and the rest of the pre-emerging known civilizations, Atlantis—with its civilization fully evolved and its empire far-flung and expanding—would have appeared as an island of cultural wonder and ease. And it is the memory of just such a place, and its location in the area of the Atlantic, that is found in practically every mythology and religion.

Core samplings and observations made throughout the Atlantic—from the Azores and along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge to the Caribbean and on the continental shelves—support the existence of a former large oceanic island. In 1913, French geologist Pierre Termier analyzed lava particles taken from the sea bottom at a depth of two miles just north of the Azores. He discovered the particles to be tachylyte, a form of lava which is vitreous and not crystalline—which means it could only have solidified in air. Because the disintegration of such lava occurs within a relatively shor time, Termier dated the rock at 12-13,000 B.P.–10-11,000 B.C.E. He concluded: “The entire region north of the Azores and perhaps the very region of the Azores was very recently submerged, probably during the epoch which geologists call the Present.”

In 1924, an Eastern Cable Company repair ship was sent to a spot 800 miles north of the Cape of Good Hope in order to retrieve a broken cable between the Cape and St. Helena Island. When the grapnels were lowered, the found the broken cable at a depth of three-quarters of a mile. The mystery was, when the cable had been laid in 1899, the depth recorded at this point had been 2,700 fathoms, or just over three miles. What this means is that within just 25 years, the ocean bottom had risen almost two miles. This finding serves as an example of what tremendous forces are at work beneath the Atlantic Ocean floor, forces that can not only raise land relatively quickly, but could probably also sink land, like Atlantis of old.

Ten years later, in the summer of 1934, the Woods Hole Institute research ship, appropriately named Atlantis, took tow-dredgings from off the Georges Bank and Cape Cod, at depths of 8,000 feet. What the expedition discovered were fossil-bearing rocks from the late Tertiary period which showed they had been cut out by river action since that time. H. C. Stetson, commenting on this finding in the Bulletin of the Geological Survey of America, said: “A fall and rise of sea level of the order or magnitude which the evidence demands, coupled with the shortness of time within which it must have taken place, approaches catastrophic.”

Another oceanographic survey, performed in 1947-1948 by the Swedish Deep Sea Expedition aboard the Albatross, took core samplings from along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge. What amazed the researchers involved was that several cores, from a depth of two miles down, revealed the remains of fresh water diatoms or algae, below a layer of marine sediments. One core, taken from 8,000 feet, off the Sierra Leone Ridge 578 miles from the west coast of Africa, contained more than 60 species of diatoms all exclusively fresh water type.

Swedish pale botanist R. W. Kolbe regarded this sample as evidence of a strata laid down by fresh water, while his colleague, geologist Rene Malaise, concluded that the diatoms had lived in a fresh water lake once above water. Conservative researchers attempted to explain the presence of these diatoms as being the result of a “turbidity current” having carried the micro-life from the African coast and deposited them in their present position. As Kolbe pointed out, however: “If ever we should accept the faint possibility of a turbidity current flowing from the African coast and dumping its load of fresh water diatoms at a distance of 930 km from the coast, it remains to be explained how it was possible for this current not only to carry its load such a distance, but, at the same time, to climb uphill more than 1,000 meters before dumping the load on top of a submarine hill.”

A year later, in the fall of 1949, Professor M. Ewing of Columbia University published a report on more findings made along the Mid-Atlantic Ridge of a curious nature. Ewing observed: “One was the discovery of prehistoric beach sand brought up in one case from a depth of two and the other nearly three and a half miles, far from any place where beaches exist today.” Beach sand is formed as the result of the action of waves pounding a seashore, in shallow water, and in the action of rain, winds and extreme temperature changes—events which do not take place deep beneath the ocean.

A second mystery involved unexplained differences in sediments on the foothills of the Ridge. As Ewing described it: “Measurements clearly indicate thousands of feet of sediments on the foothills of the Ridge. Surprisingly, however, we have found that in the great flat basins on either side of the Ridge, this sediment appears to be less than 100 feet thick.” Ewing called this a “startling fact,” because such a lack of thick deposits in the basin suggests a relatively young age for the formation of the present Atlantic undersea floor.

The type of sediment deposits found were also striking: Samples dating at 11,000 B.P. from the western half of the North Atlantic showed ocean mud, but those from the eastern side—especially in the region where Plato placed Atlantis—revealed granite, mud stones, rocks striated by glacial action, land soil and loose gravel.

http://www.forgotten...Poseidons-C.htm

Just a problem or two: The Azores are volcanic and have no continental platform. They are essentially volcanic mountain tops that are a product of extrusion from plate boundaries. Please see below;

http://docs.google.c...U_GNU73oGigEv6g

http://docs.google.c...F1dsbim8XNCUPMA

As to the Gulf Stream, recent research has called the long held impact of such into question;

http://www.ldeo.colu...res/div/ocp/gs/

For more on the Gulf Stream, please see below. Note dominant flow areas.

http://web.me.com/ur...n_currents.html

And Abe is most correct about the out-of-date information in your reference, not to mention the interpretation of the data. In addition, Jochmans is a, shall we say, questionable (!) source.

.


#497    kmt_sesh

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 08:58 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 27 September 2010 - 06:25 PM, said:

I have read a lot about what Riven posted, and he must be posting from the Twilight Zone, or from some mental hospital.

I am not sure, but I think he once posted on an Atlantis site that he thinks he is the reincarnation of an Atlantic ruler.

If you think we should take him seriously, then wait till I am hammered; then I can cook up a lot more bull than he will ever be capable of.

Here he is, on YouTube:


.

I think probably more than a few of us around here are familiar with this poster, at least to some extent. Just the same, I think more than a few of us know the difference between unrealistic, whimsical, self-aggrandizement and real-world, applicable historical research.

I don't think it matters how hammered you might be, Abramelin. You'd still be able to see the Twilight Zone in his posts. :lol:

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#498    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 09:08 PM

Quote

…we have Saturn at the North celestial Pole c. 9600BC for 400 years…

That would appear to be incorrect as Saturn never rises more than about 25 degrees above the horizon at that time,
as seen from the North Pole. Placing it nowhere near the North Celestial Pole.

Quote

...which is the exact timeframe Herodotus gives for Osiris as the priests have told him.

And yet, there is no evidence for the existence of Osiris before the mid-Fifth Dynasty of Egypt nor any evidence
that Egyptian priests, during the time of the Achaemenid/Persian Empire's rule, knew of any such events happening
that far back in time.

Quote

...the people are a Mechtoid type, which are actually cro-Magnon...

No they aren’t. Slim and I have already been through this. See the following:

Early Holocene Maghreb Prehistory:  An Evolutionary Approach


cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#499    cormac mac airt

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Posted 27 September 2010 - 09:18 PM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 27 September 2010 - 08:58 PM, said:

I think probably more than a few of us around here are familiar with this poster, at least to some extent. Just the same, I think more than a few of us know the difference between unrealistic, whimsical, self-aggrandizement and real-world, applicable historical research.

I don't think it matters how hammered you might be, Abramelin. You'd still be able to see the Twilight Zone in his posts. :lol:

The rushed monotone delivery was bad enough. But watching a hairy, shirtless dude scratch himself and smoke a cigarette while making said presentation was apalling, to say the least. And after all that, he wasn't even man enough to show his face. Epic fail!

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#500    kmt_sesh

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 01:04 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 27 September 2010 - 09:18 PM, said:

The rushed monotone delivery was bad enough. But watching a hairy, shirtless dude scratch himself and smoke a cigarette while making said presentation was apalling, to say the least. And after all that, he wasn't even man enough to show his face. Epic fail!

cormac

:lol: You know, I was going to comment on the hairy chest but decided not to. I mean, who on earth wants to see that? Personally I can understand why he didn't want to show his face, given the certifiable nutcases trolling the internet (if not especially YouTube). Still, 9-plus minutes of such unsubstantiated, fairy-tale twaddle is more than any reasoning adult can withstand. I know I gave up after about a minute and a half.

This is not a source to cite. In any capacity.

I wonder if Sitchin's chest is that hairy? :w00t:

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#501    Swede

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 02:30 AM

kmt_sesh, cormac - Had long ago written off Riven. However, based upon your comments, I was silly enough to subject myself to that "presentation". The "click the page" routine was just too much. Not to mention the terminally disoriented context. How many years has he spent composing such tripe? And such a masterful delivery. Truly the sign of a knowledgeable and qualified researcher.

You will be both be held accountable. Need to go shave now.

.


#502    cormac mac airt

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 03:15 AM

View PostSwede, on 28 September 2010 - 02:30 AM, said:

kmt_sesh, cormac - Had long ago written off Riven. However, based upon your comments, I was silly enough to subject myself to that "presentation". The "click the page" routine was just too much. Not to mention the terminally disoriented context. How many years has he spent composing such tripe? And such a masterful delivery. Truly the sign of a knowledgeable and qualified researcher.

You will be both be held accountable. Need to go shave now.

.

Gotta love it when the sarcasm is so thick you have to slice it with a machete.  :lol:

Don't worry Swede, we're throwing you a rope. We don't leave our people behind. :tu:

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#503    Qoais

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 03:22 AM

If you really think about it, the man is a genius that he can just spout all that stuff off the cuff as he goes along.  He makes it up in his head and it just flows out.  Unreal.  He says he is the Seer to the Royal Bloodline of Atlantis.  He also says he's related cause he lives on the Azores.  He also changes his mind about where Atlantis is.  He has his own web site and it's amazing what spew out of that sewer of a mouth of his.  He has a thread over at Atlantis Online, called Tribes of Atlantis as well, and it just boggles the mind, what he comes up with. He calls himself "Riven The Seer and Royal Bloodline to Atlantis.."

An open-minded view of the past allows for an unprejudiced glimpse into the future.

Intuitive knowledge is knowledge beyond intellectual reasoning.

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#504    cormac mac airt

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 03:32 AM

Yeah, but he's in such great company. What with Ostanes, MissionAtlantis and Orion von Koch to converse with.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#505    booNyzarC

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 04:40 AM

View Postkmt_sesh, on 28 September 2010 - 01:04 AM, said:

I wonder if Sitchin's chest is that hairy? :w00t:
Don't make me...  you know I'm capable of it...  please don't make me, I really don't wanna... ;) :lol:


#506    Aus Der Box Skeptisch

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 05:00 AM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 28 September 2010 - 04:40 AM, said:

Don't make me...  you know I'm capable of it...  please don't make me, I really don't wanna... ;) :lol:

... Do it boon.... You know you want to... You already have it pictured..... Just do it....

Lol :)

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#507    TheSearcher

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 05:02 AM

View PostQoais, on 28 September 2010 - 03:22 AM, said:

If you really think about it, the man is a genius that he can just spout all that stuff off the cuff as he goes along.  He makes it up in his head and it just flows out.  Unreal.  He says he is the Seer to the Royal Bloodline of Atlantis.  He also says he's related cause he lives on the Azores.  He also changes his mind about where Atlantis is.  He has his own web site and it's amazing what spew out of that sewer of a mouth of his.  He has a thread over at Atlantis Online, called Tribes of Atlantis as well, and it just boggles the mind, what he comes up with. He calls himself "Riven The Seer and Royal Bloodline to Atlantis.."

Damned Q, but you are quite right, now that was a load of rubbish. I had to watch a few episodes of BBC's QI just to cleanse my head.
And the worst part is that the guys actually is serious and believes himself.

Fear me, for I am the Searcher of truth! Smiter of the unbeliever! Grand destroyer of fallacies!! Atlantis is actually in Belgium, where the gods separated us into two parts, flemish and walloon ........ Nope sorry, I can't do it. I can't even begin to comprehend the kind of mental smut, you have to have in your head, in order to spout such utter rubbish.

View PostbooNyzarC, on 28 September 2010 - 04:40 AM, said:

Don't make me...  you know I'm capable of it...  please don't make me, I really don't wanna... ;) :lol:

Go on then, you know you actually want to.........

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So god made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?!

#508    booNyzarC

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 05:11 AM

View PostAus Der Box Skeptisch, on 28 September 2010 - 05:00 AM, said:

... Do it boon.... You know you want to... You already have it pictured..... Just do it....

Lol :)
I'll consider it... but I shudder at the thought of what google images will put in front of my eyes for the effort...  literally. ;)  I really don't think I want to take this one on... LOL :lol:


#509    SlimJim22

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 10:26 AM

Hilarious  :lol:  :tu: all. Guys you know me, I gave Riven every chance to explain himself rationally during his time here but I seriously worried for the guys sanity. He has obviously spent years researching and where has it got him?  :hmm:

I had respect for the guy until he started claiming his royal lineage from Atlantis. Maybe he was told of such things by his relatives when he was young and had it all verified through internet research. I really don't know how you could become that deluded... If you're gonna do a video, you'd have to get some spooky lighting going on or something. Hairy nipples do for little for anybody and if he ever wanted to be taken seriously that is now out of the window. It will alwasy come back to haunt him no doubt... Oh how the mighty have fallen?

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#510    The Puzzler

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 01:29 PM

Yes, well I don't care to discuss Paulo and his habits.  The point was, it was an interesting image to look at the Richat Structure as the central core of Atlantis.

It never ceases to amaze me how zippo people actually contribute to a thread until a person they can discredit pops up and everyone jumps on the bandwagon, a page later, no comment on whether the Richat Structure is suitable for Atlantis, but I can read 10 posts of how deluded Paulo Riven is....

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