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Plato's Atlantis -- Made Up or Based on Fact?


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#511    Abramelin

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 03:37 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 28 September 2010 - 01:29 PM, said:

Yes, well I don't care to discuss Paulo and his habits.  The point was, it was an interesting image to look at the Richat Structure as the central core of Atlantis.

It never ceases to amaze me how zippo people actually contribute to a thread until a person they can discredit pops up and everyone jumps on the bandwagon, a page later, no comment on whether the Richat Structure is suitable for Atlantis, but I can read 10 posts of how deluded Paulo Riven is....

I asked you a question, just before I posted about this Riven guy. But nevermind, Swede already answered it.

And the Richat Structure looks nice, but above water, on dry land.

.

Edited by Abramelin, 28 September 2010 - 03:39 PM.


#512    kmt_sesh

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 04:25 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 28 September 2010 - 01:29 PM, said:

Yes, well I don't care to discuss Paulo and his habits.  The point was, it was an interesting image to look at the Richat Structure as the central core of Atlantis.

It never ceases to amaze me how zippo people actually contribute to a thread until a person they can discredit pops up and everyone jumps on the bandwagon, a page later, no comment on whether the Richat Structure is suitable for Atlantis, but I can read 10 posts of how deluded Paulo Riven is....

Well, for goodness sake, Puzzler, consider the source. Mind you, our preceding comments had nothing to do with you. Plain and simple, Riven is not taken seriously. Delusion and misdirection do not a theory make. So if you find the Richat Structure interesting and believe there's something to it, present a source that is worth taking a closer look at. Riven is not and can never be that source. I've read quite a lot of his stuff on other forums as well as what he posted in his short time here, so I personally am not the least surprised by other people's reactions to him.

Consider the source. :yes:

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#513    The Puzzler

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Posted 28 September 2010 - 05:00 PM

View PostSwede, on 27 September 2010 - 06:51 PM, said:

Just a problem or two: The Azores are volcanic and have no continental platform. They are essentially volcanic mountain tops that are a product of extrusion from plate boundaries. Please see below;

http://docs.google.c...U_GNU73oGigEv6g

http://docs.google.c...F1dsbim8XNCUPMA

As to the Gulf Stream, recent research has called the long held impact of such into question;

http://www.ldeo.colu...res/div/ocp/gs/

For more on the Gulf Stream, please see below. Note dominant flow areas.

http://web.me.com/ur...n_currents.html

And Abe is most correct about the out-of-date information in your reference, not to mention the interpretation of the data. In addition, Jochmans is a, shall we say, questionable (!) source.

.
Just thought I'd put it out there. I do note the flow goes past the Canaries.

My own personal view is not the Azores.

Mt Atlas and the area of Western North Africa, maybe including the Canaries is where I'd be likely to place it, if we don't think of the Egyptians knowing the area exactly as we look at it on a map today, this area could have been interpreted as being outside the Straits. The geological activity of 12,000-8,000BC, remembering also that Mt Atlas is snow topped, it would have melted alot, creating larger rivers at the time. It's a seismic area and no volcano is mentioned by Plato.

If you think about Herodotus writings and what he says, 10,000 years before his time he thinks it could be possible that the Delta of Egypt was not there and that area would have been a sea gulf from the side of the Med, possibly joining the Red Sea.

That's food for thought if we think about Plato thinking about that some more. What you have is Africa as an island.

-------------


*kmt - I s'pose I should have realised...silly me.

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#514    Swede

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 01:20 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 28 September 2010 - 05:00 PM, said:

Just thought I'd put it out there. I do note the flow goes past the Canaries.

My own personal view is not the Azores.

Mt Atlas and the area of Western North Africa, maybe including the Canaries is where I'd be likely to place it, if we don't think of the Egyptians knowing the area exactly as we look at it on a map today, this area could have been interpreted as being outside the Straits. The geological activity of 12,000-8,000BC, remembering also that Mt Atlas is snow topped, it would have melted alot, creating larger rivers at the time. It's a seismic area and no volcano is mentioned by Plato.

If you think about Herodotus writings and what he says, 10,000 years before his time he thinks it could be possible that the Delta of Egypt was not there and that area would have been a sea gulf from the side of the Med, possibly joining the Red Sea.

That's food for thought if we think about Plato thinking about that some more. What you have is Africa as an island.

-------------


*kmt - I s'pose I should have realised...silly me.

This reference to the Canary Islands should assist with your studies. This island chain is also volcanic in origin. While the first part of the article deals with some of the nuances of geologic dating (note the level/sophistication of research), the latter sections provide some good "visuals". Also note the time-line presentation.

http://www.mantleplu...org/Canary.html

As to Richat, the anticline information presented below would appear to be a reasonable interpretation, given the supporting geologic evidence.

http://geology.rockb...-in-mauritania/

Edited to add: Coring data from the Nile Delta would appear to indicate an age of at least 35,000 yrs. You will have to open the full file to view all the data. Go with the "lo-res", which is still 10+ megs. Interesting.

http://si-pddr.si.ed...ndle/10088/1142

.

Edited by Swede, 29 September 2010 - 01:34 AM.


#515    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 02:03 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 28 September 2010 - 03:37 PM, said:

I asked you a question, just before I posted about this Riven guy. But nevermind, Swede already answered it.

And the Richat Structure looks nice, but above water, on dry land.

.
Yes, I did note the dates. Yeah yeah, outdated, whatever, maybe... :angry2:


The rings of water in Atlantis were, to me, obviously a natural formation and one that water would fill, apparently this can happen at Richat, a thermal water thing is going on under it. I'll try and find more specifics later tonight.

The central rings of Atlantis really were on dry land, they were in the central part of the island which did have a canal that took it to the sea, that's also why it seems it would be an underground filling of the rings from a source in the Earth. There is no rings at first until Plato has Poseidon start to carve them out and the island as such becomes what we know it, the rings must have been cut into dry land and slowly filled with water. It seems that a slow sinking has started at that time.

I know Richat is above land etc but the area may have been quite different. The melting of glaciers on top of Mt Atlas would have created quite a flow down off it. Just because it's above ground now doesn't mean it has always had that positioning. It more than likely a sinking and rising has happened as the weight off the glaciers receded off the mountains of both East and Western Africa.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#516    SlimJim22

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 09:52 AM

Here's a nice pdf on glaciations of the last billion years in western Africa.

http://ipac.kacst.ed...10/189691_1.pdf

Is there any agreement on the dating of the Richat structure? I had not considered that the shape was created by an underground water source and I can't see how  a glacier could form the shape either. Some have made claims of it being an impact crater. What is the likelihood of this? I think a plasmoid discharge makes more sense pesonally.

http://www.users.on....atastrophes.htm

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#517    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 10:29 AM

View PostSlimJim22, on 29 September 2010 - 09:52 AM, said:

Here's a nice pdf on glaciations of the last billion years in western Africa.

http://ipac.kacst.ed...10/189691_1.pdf

Is there any agreement on the dating of the Richat structure? I had not considered that the shape was created by an underground water source and I can't see how  a glacier could form the shape either. Some have made claims of it being an impact crater. What is the likelihood of this? I think a plasmoid discharge makes more sense pesonally.

http://www.users.on....atastrophes.htm
The geology of Richat is really in tune with exactly what Plato says.

The Richat structure (Sahara, Mauritania) appears as a large dome at least 40 km in diameter within a Late Proterozoic to Ordovician sequence. Erosion has created circular cuestas represented by three nested rings dipping outward from the structure. The center of the structure consists of a limestone-dolomite shelf that encloses a kilometer-scale siliceous breccia and is intruded by basaltic ring dikes, kimberlitic intrusions, and alkaline volcanic rocks. Several hypotheses have been presented to explain the spectacular Richat structure and breccia, but their origin remains enigmatic. The breccia body is lenticular in shape and irregularly thins at its extremities to only a few meters. The breccia was created during karst dissolution and collapse. Internal sediments fill the centimeter- to meter-scale cavities. Alkaline enrichment and the presence of Cretaceous automorphous neoformed K-feldspar demonstrate the hydrothermal origin of these internal sediments and their contemporaneity with magmatism. A model is proposed in which doming and the production of hydrothermal fluids were instrumental in creating a favorable setting for dissolution. The circular Richat structure and its breccia core thus represent the superficial expression of a Cretaceous alkaline complex with an exceptionally well preserved hydrothermal karst infilling at its summit.
http://geology.gsapu.../8/665.abstract

Hydrothermal. Hot springs.
Maybe fissures, vents.

Here's research on it being created electrically...

------------------------------------------
Posted Image

Why do these three craters and a fourth line up and why are they so circular? We suggest these three craters are part of the same discharge event series. Circularity is an earmark of Birkeland-current machined craters.

See: TPOD for April 07, 2005 Earth's Richat Crater

Tenoumer crater, diameter 1.9 km, N 22°55' - W 10°24'

See: http://disc.gsfc.nas...lateT-61.K.jpeg

Satellites photos show this crater, located on top of the Pliocene (or younger) sediments overlaying Precambrian gneisses and granites in the western Sahara desert, Mauritania. to be quite circular. Projectiles found outside the crater are up to 20m long and consist of rock material containing altered gneiss and granite clasts with small fractured glass inclusions on the surface.

Temimichat crater, diameter 750 m, N 24°15' - W 9°39'

See: http://www.image-con...ania/index.html
It is interesting to note that the Richat Crater is very slightly oval and its major axis is inline with the two other craters. We suggest that these three craters are part of the same discharge event series, conventional "dating" notwithstanding. Crater chains are a common result of electric arcs passing over a cathode surface because the arc "sticks" and machines out a circle and then jumps to repeat the process.

The excavated material is accelerated upwards, some into space, some to fall back down around the area, and some to just pile up along the edge forming the raised rims.  The twisted Birkeland current of the discharge channel usually doesn't machine as intensely in the center of the crater and it leaves a formation of undisturbed material ranging from a slightly elevated mound to a tall spike of rock. The type of central "peak" depends on many factors: the narrowness, focus and intensity of the Birkeland current, the type of material being excavated and the material's current carrying capacity.

When the current is narrow and intense, and the material is dense, most of the excavated material is accelerated away from the area. The result is deep canyons and/or craters with steep walls and central spikes. Conversely, broad, less intense currents machine out shallow craters with central mounds, less steep walls, and material piled up along the edge and strewn around the more immediate area.

Relatively flat floors are a feature of this Electric Discharge Machining  (EDM), and our modern industry uses tightly controlled EDM to produce extremely smooth surfaces on molds for "polished" surfaces on plastic parts or products. Those who have experience with machine shop EDM have no difficulty in relating to this model of crater formation.

Composed by Shaun Bourke and Michael Armstrong


http://www.thunderbo...chatrevisit.htm

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#518    Eldorado

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 10:49 AM

'Atlantis was only a powerful literary device invented by Plato, which was to act as a means of highlighting the fate of the ideal state created in Plato's mind's eye. The only place in which Atlantis can be found, in addition to the writings of Plato, is in the minds of those with an imagination as vivid as that of Plato.'
--Daniel Dombrowski

My opinion:
Plato was philosopher, mathematician and writer of philosophical dialogues.

If Atlantis was real, it would surely have been written about by historians and commentators of the day. Especially when it involved a war with Athens and such a cataclysmic ending.

But I'm not well-read on the subject or as learned as many of the posters here, so I'll accept that my opinion is nonsense if you now shoot me down.

Edited by Eldorado, 29 September 2010 - 11:00 AM.


#519    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 11:46 AM

Thanks again Swede.

I was thinking about Marrakech.

It's called the Red City apparently.
Marrakech or Marrakesh (Amazigh: Murakush, Arabic مراكش marrākuš, marrākiš), known as the "Red City", is an important and former imperial city in Morocco

It's name possibly means Land of God.
The probable origin of its name is from the Amazigh (Berber) words mur (n) akush (ⵎⵓⵔ ⵏ ⴰⵅⵓⵙⵂ), which means "Land of God".


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marrakech

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#520    SlimJim22

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 12:10 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 29 September 2010 - 11:46 AM, said:

Thanks again Swede.

I was thinking about Marrakech.

It's called the Red City apparently.
Marrakech or Marrakesh (Amazigh: Murakush, Arabic مراكش marrākuš, marrākiš), known as the "Red City", is an important and former imperial city in Morocco

It's name possibly means Land of God.
The probable origin of its name is from the Amazigh (Berber) words mur (n) akush (ⵎⵓⵔ ⵏ ⴰⵅⵓⵙⵂ), which means "Land of God".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marrakech

An intriguing possbility. I have often pondered Morocco's use of the five pointed star along with Ethiopia and others. Not sure if it has any relevance but the obvious importnace of the colour red is also significant. I'm unsure why the Red Sea is called by this name but red could be argued to refer to blood and perhaps motherhood. It's a bit vague to make a decent argument from but imagine what ancient peopls would have made of a plasmoid crater following a light show of unprecedented proportions. If it held water then what an ideal place to set up a culture. The eivdence of a favourable climate and modern humans developing tools in the area also make this area highly interesting. Is it possible that Plato was privy to recollections albeit distorted that went back to a predliuvian period? Unlikely sure but far from impossible either.

What should be disconcerting to "impact" theorists is that in dozens of craters studied closely around the Earth, meteorite fragments were documented in only three.

http://www.thunderbo...50407richat.htm

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#521    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 01:34 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 29 September 2010 - 12:10 PM, said:

If it held water then what an ideal place to set up a culture. The eivdence of a favourable climate and modern humans developing tools in the area also make this area highly interesting. Is it possible that Plato was privy to recollections albeit distorted that went back to a predliuvian period? Unlikely sure but far from impossible either.

What should be disconcerting to "impact" theorists is that in dozens of craters studied closely around the Earth, meteorite fragments were documented in only three.

http://www.thunderbo...50407richat.htm
Interesting about the craters, makes sense, I mean how many impacts must have occurred for so many craters to have been meteor impacted, it doesn't seem all that common an event really...

The thunderbolts people are the researchers of the Saturn Pole theory I was using alot of their info for that topic when I was on it the other week.

This website is not for uninformed, gullible people so sort the crap from the good bits and I reckon it has some good info, things from ancient writers about the area and sailing and the cultures of 10,000 BC. http://www.clarence-.../bourne005.html

You mentioned Spartel Island slim, and why not, what are we looking for, an island that sunk at the mouth of the Straits c. 9,000 BC....there it is. It's too small now but how much earth has been washed away in 10,000 years at an area such as that where water is channelling and currents flow through as well as earthquake fault lines go through...my internet is going slow and having trouble getting any info up on Spartel Island up right now. If you check Google Earth you can see how large the continental shelf is right near the mouth of the strait on the North West African side.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#522    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 01:49 PM

View PostEldorado, on 29 September 2010 - 10:49 AM, said:

'Atlantis was only a powerful literary device invented by Plato, which was to act as a means of highlighting the fate of the ideal state created in Plato's mind's eye. The only place in which Atlantis can be found, in addition to the writings of Plato, is in the minds of those with an imagination as vivid as that of Plato.'
--Daniel Dombrowski

My opinion:
Plato was philosopher, mathematician and writer of philosophical dialogues.

If Atlantis was real, it would surely have been written about by historians and commentators of the day. Especially when it involved a war with Athens and such a cataclysmic ending.

But I'm not well-read on the subject or as learned as many of the posters here, so I'll accept that my opinion is nonsense if you now shoot me down.

It's great to have an opinion, I like them...I'll give you my opinion on some points to consider.

Plato was those, he was also a thinker, a teacher, a truth-seeker.

Maybe it has been and they and us have missed it. What about the plenty of myths about Gods and the stories, how about the contest between Athena and Poseidon to be the patron of Athens?

Plato tends to hint that the story does exist with his Phaethon analogy and maybe it is the Phaethon myth itself we can see the story in.

The age of the Gods according to the Egyptian priests of Herodotus account was at least 15,000 years. That is Osiris dating to them. There is no reason not to believe the people who became settled in the Nile valley as the Egyptians of the pre-dynastic era were not following a religion for thousands of years prior. In fact, I find it less believable, the minute the settle in the Nile they develop the Gods they had, imo those Gods would have already been with them for thousands of years. To place Osiris into the time frame they give is not out of the question at all.

The Qadan culture of the Nile Valley c. 15,000-10,000BC might have been the people who had the Osiris cult, they were a sickle using grain grinding culture who suddenly at 10,000BC discontinued this lifestyle and hunter-gathering returned. The sickles are only found prior to 10,000BC. If you start to put this all into perspective and get your head around the timeframes and events and cultures it doesn't seem that extraordinary at all really.

Helios has a four horse chariot and a cup to sail to the Western edge of the World. The time of the Gods is very, very old, as Critias is told according to Plato, it's not yesterday, it's so far back they have forgotten they even know it, hidden in myths like Phaethon.

Couple spelling edits.

Edited by The Puzzler, 29 September 2010 - 01:58 PM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#523    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 02:28 PM

He took four key pieces of data from Plato's account: a date 9000 years before 600 BCE or 11,600 years ago; an island about 15 kilometers across; a location in the sea beyond the Pillars of Hercules; the sinking of the Atlantean city beneath the waves in a single day leaving a muddy shoal behind.

These facts fit a scenario based on new geologic data about that time and place. At that time, sea level was more than 100 meters below its present elevation and Spartel Bank was an island. In fact, Gutscher's new mapping of the site shows that it would have been a rather small island at that time, smaller than previously thought. But things change when we add the effects of large subduction earthquakes. As we all know from the Sumatra quake of 2004, large areas of land sink by several meters and more during these events. If we restore the effects of great earthquakes, which Gutscher estimated as recurring every 2000 years or so, then the island would have been higher and larger.

The Atlantis Scenario
Gutscher proposed that an exceptionally large quake could have dropped Spartel/Atlantis by 10 meters at once, while tsunami waves of 10 meters or greater height would have obliterated any human structures and left the island unrecognizable. A few more subduction earthquakes would have sunk the remaining islets beneath the sea, leaving treacherous muddy shallows, well before Plato's time.

"Although the catastrophic destruction described by Plato is consistent with the geological and tectonic history of the Straits of Gibraltar," Gutscher writes, "this does not imply that Atlantis ever existed. It simply means the account is geologically plausible."


Geologically plausible


:yes:

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#524    SlimJim22

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 02:32 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 29 September 2010 - 01:34 PM, said:

Interesting about the craters, makes sense, I mean how many impacts must have occurred for so many craters to have been meteor impacted, it doesn't seem all that common an event really...

The thunderbolts people are the researchers of the Saturn Pole theory I was using alot of their info for that topic when I was on it the other week.

This website is not for uninformed, gullible people so sort the crap from the good bits and I reckon it has some good info, things from ancient writers about the area and sailing and the cultures of 10,000 BC. http://www.clarence-.../bourne005.html

You mentioned Spartel Island slim, and why not, what are we looking for, an island that sunk at the mouth of the Straits c. 9,000 BC....there it is. It's too small now but how much earth has been washed away in 10,000 years at an area such as that where water is channelling and currents flow through as well as earthquake fault lines go through...my internet is going slow and having trouble getting any info up on Spartel Island up right now. If you check Google Earth you can see how large the continental shelf is right near the mouth of the strait on the North West African side.

I liked your link. Here is what I could find on the Danmoni that are mentioned in it.

MORE TRULY DANMONIL WHICH NAME ... DERIVED FROM THE EVER-CONTINUING MINES OF TIN IN THIS TRACT, WHICH THE BRITANS CALL MOINA.'(Britannia p. 183) This compound word is therefore composed of 'moina', a tin mine, and 'Dan', the people who mined the tin. So this most ancient region of England is properly called 'DANMONI', meaning, 'DAN'S TIN-MINES'. That these early inhabitants known as 'Dan' were in fact the Biblical tribe of the same name has been established by leading modern scholars such as Cyrus Gordon, as shown in our tract, Ancient Hebrew Sea Migrations. If these early colonists had actually been Phoenicians, the region would have been called, not Danmoni, but 'Fenimoni,' because the Phoenicians were known as the'Punic'or 'Feni' civilization.

Celtic scholar, Sir John Rhys, gives strong evidences of Hebrew colonization of the British isles in ancient times. 'lreland was known as IBERION,' he says. (p. 201) The ancient name of the Israelites was Ibri or Iberi (modern Hebrew), which is derived from the name, 'EBER', or 'HEBER', an ancestor and patriarch of that people. Sir John continues, '...in Ireland it was Ivernii in Ptolomy's time; and he mentions a town there called Ivernis, and a river Ivernios. To these may be added various forms of the name of the island such as Juvenal's luuerna, distorted more usually by the Romans into Hibernia. THEIR EPONYMOUS ANCESTOR ... is variously called EBER, Emer, and HEBER.' (ibid., p. 262-3)

Sir John discusses a region 'just in the vicinity of St David's or Mnyw, called in the Welsh Chronicle MONI IUDEORUM, which contains an allusion probably to the same people.' (ibid., p. 226) Sir John says that some scholars suggest this word, Iudeorurn or Judeorurn, may relate to the 'Jutes', a Germanic tribe in Northern Europe, but that he believes such a view incorrect. Instead, Sir John indicates that it identifies Hebrews of the tribe of Judah. Sir John adds, '... lastly we seem to have a trace of the same form in the Welsh Chronicle, sometimes called Annales Cambriae, when it calls Menevia or St. David's Moni Iudeorum. WE NEED NOT BE HERE TROUBLED BY THE LOST TEN TRIBES OF ISRAEL BUT ... IT WOULD BE HARD TO PROVE THE CONTRARY' (ibid. p.150)

Sir John also discusses early Celtic names and suggests that we '... compare Semitic names ... compare the Hebrew.' (ibid., p. 259-260)

HISTORICAL LINK

One last fascinating connection with ancient Israel is suggested by Sir John, who says, 'the (Celtic) Kymry were for some time indifferently called Cambria or Cumbria, the Welsh word on which they are based being, as now written, Cymru ... and is there pronounced nearly as an Englishman would treat it if spelled Kumry or KUMRI.' (p. 142) As students of Old Testament history well know, 'Kumri' or'Khumri' was the name of the Israelites in Assyrian texts. (see, 'The March of Archaeology, by C.W Ceram, p. 216) The virtual identity in spelling and sound between the Israelite 'Khumri', and the Celtic 'Kymry', is too much of a coincidence to not have a relationship. Taken with the rnany other evidences, religious and cultural, the connection between the ancient Hebrews and Celts is too strong to be ignored.


http://www.ensignmes...ves/hebrew.html

There doesn't seem to be a whole lot of info on Spartel Island.

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Cape_Spartel

I like the term aquiticity. Africa seems to be a likely place for sailing to originate. The Pleiades as being daughters of Atlas could well be a reference to this as well as to early agriculture.

Something else that I've been thinking about is the similarities between european and african face masks. I forget which african country had the best examples but I know the etruscans were fond of them. The Cymru who built Stonehenge are thought to have been part of a cult of the severed head. This cult also had a place in Asia. There is little in Plato to support this but I often consider what goes unsaid as some things are too sacred to write down. I think that if he was enclosing kernals of truth then some would have to be veiled so they did not undermine society.

"I belive no thing, I follow the Law of One. I am a Man-O'-Sion under construction."

#525    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 02:53 PM

Link for that article:  http://geology.about.com/od/controversies/a/aa_atlantis.htm

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