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Plato's Atlantis -- Made Up or Based on Fact?


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#526    SlimJim22

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 03:05 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 29 September 2010 - 02:53 PM, said:

Link for that article:  http://geology.about.com/od/controversies/a/aa_atlantis.htm

The face masks were from Nigeria. Check 'em out, do they look at all Etruscans? The connection being that geographically distant cultures have common traditions that may evidence a common cultural heritage.

http://www.hamillgal...aFaceMasks.html

It is funny what can survive thousands of years as an idea in the minds of man long after the particles have dispersde back into the aether.

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#527    The Puzzler

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 03:09 PM

Let me say Slim, I did not overlook the part about Jutes and Jews. Heber/Eber - Hibernia...I'll save it for later.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#528    cormac mac airt

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 03:47 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 29 September 2010 - 02:28 PM, said:

He took four key pieces of data from Plato's account: a date 9000 years before 600 BCE or 11,600 years ago; an island about 15 kilometers across; a location in the sea beyond the Pillars of Hercules; the sinking of the Atlantean city beneath the waves in a single day leaving a muddy shoal behind.

These facts fit a scenario based on new geologic data about that time and place. At that time, sea level was more than 100 meters below its present elevation and Spartel Bank was an island. In fact, Gutscher's new mapping of the site shows that it would have been a rather small island at that time, smaller than previously thought. But things change when we add the effects of large subduction earthquakes. As we all know from the Sumatra quake of 2004, large areas of land sink by several meters and more during these events. If we restore the effects of great earthquakes, which Gutscher estimated as recurring every 2000 years or so, then the island would have been higher and larger.

The Atlantis Scenario
Gutscher proposed that an exceptionally large quake could have dropped Spartel/Atlantis by 10 meters at once, while tsunami waves of 10 meters or greater height would have obliterated any human structures and left the island unrecognizable. A few more subduction earthquakes would have sunk the remaining islets beneath the sea, leaving treacherous muddy shallows, well before Plato's time.

"Although the catastrophic destruction described by Plato is consistent with the geological and tectonic history of the Straits of Gibraltar," Gutscher writes, "this does not imply that Atlantis ever existed. It simply means the account is geologically plausible."


Geologically plausible


:yes:


Gutscher also says:

Quote

Hi Kris,

I am writing to comment briefly upon your weblog concerning my Geology article on the destruction of Atlantis. It turns out that I agree with almost eveything you write, but I only recently came to this conclusion.

In a sense, yes it's the right place, the right circumstances, but no it's not the right time. After having heard various talks at the conference in Milos last week (on Atlantis) I cannot escape the fact that Plato is writing about a bronze age society, with a hierarchy, metallurgy skills, advanced construction, transport and navigation skills, and that this just isn't conceivable in Southern Iberia some 12,000 yrs ago.

So I conclude, if Spartel paleo-island was inhabited roughly 12,000 yrs ago, then it must have been simple fishermen (but the drowning of fishermen would hardly merit being recorded by priests in Egypt would it?).

Otherwise, Plato's chronology must be erroneous. This latter possibility was widely discussed in Milos and suggestions were made that the Egyptian priests counted years either as moon months, or perhaps seasons.

Either would have a dramatic impact on the chronology.

The bottom line is, Spartel was not inhabited by an advanced bronze age culture. So the Atlantis hunters can keep searching.

kind regards,

Marc-Andre Gutscher
Universite de Bretagne Occidentale
Institut Universitaire Europeen de la Mer
UMR 6538 Domaines Oceaniques
Place Nicolas Copernic
F-29280

Spartel Island Not Likely Atlantis

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#529    Eldorado

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 04:09 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 29 September 2010 - 01:49 PM, said:

It's great to have an opinion, I like them...I'll give you my opinion on some points to consider.

Plato was those, he was also a thinker, a teacher, a truth-seeker.

Maybe it has been and they and us have missed it. What about the plenty of myths about Gods and the stories, how about the contest between Athena and Poseidon to be the patron of Athens?

Plato tends to hint that the story does exist with his Phaethon analogy and maybe it is the Phaethon myth itself we can see the story in.

The age of the Gods according to the Egyptian priests of Herodotus account was at least 15,000 years. That is Osiris dating to them. There is no reason not to believe the people who became settled in the Nile valley as the Egyptians of the pre-dynastic era were not following a religion for thousands of years prior. In fact, I find it less believable, the minute the settle in the Nile they develop the Gods they had, imo those Gods would have already been with them for thousands of years. To place Osiris into the time frame they give is not out of the question at all.

The Qadan culture of the Nile Valley c. 15,000-10,000BC might have been the people who had the Osiris cult, they were a sickle using grain grinding culture who suddenly at 10,000BC discontinued this lifestyle and hunter-gathering returned. The sickles are only found prior to 10,000BC. If you start to put this all into perspective and get your head around the timeframes and events and cultures it doesn't seem that extraordinary at all really.

Helios has a four horse chariot and a cup to sail to the Western edge of the World. The time of the Gods is very, very old, as Critias is told according to Plato, it's not yesterday, it's so far back they have forgotten they even know it, hidden in myths like Phaethon.

Couple spelling edits.


Thank you for your reply, Puzzler.

A war and an entire island sinking into the sea are not the kind of things forgotten.  They would be remembered in stories and song as well being potrayed on numerous reliefs.  Unlike most "myths", we know where the Atlantis story sprang from; the imagination of Plato, and as theory for discussion.

"The possible existence of a genuine Atlantis was discussed throughout classical antiquity, but it was usually rejected and occasionally parodied by later authors. As Alan Cameron states: "It is only in modern times that people have taken the Atlantis story seriously; no one did so in antiquity"."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlantis

Edited by Eldorado, 29 September 2010 - 04:49 PM.


#530    kmt_sesh

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 04:27 PM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 29 September 2010 - 03:47 PM, said:

Gutscher also says:



Spartel Island Not Likely Atlantis

cormac

Something that is "geologically plausible" hardly constitutes sufficient evidence. And as your post shows, cormac, the author of the article handily dismisses Spartel as a possibility for Atlantis.

So sinks another argument in favor of Atlantis. Ha! Sinks! Get it?

Never mind. In his response Gutscher also wonders about the Egyptian calendar and whether the "priests counted years either as moon months, or perhaps seasons." The Egyptian calendar was not lunar, as the Greeks' was. Seasonal is approaching the truth a little closer, although still not quite correct. The Egyptian calendar was solar and contained three seasons divided in total into 365 days. You can not really use the Egyptian calendar to try to make sense out of Plato's "timeline" for Atlantis.

Then again, as we all know, Atlantis was never part of Egyptian tradition in the first place. Given our modern understanding of the history of the Mediterranean world, it's nonsensical to pretend otherwise. The Egyptians could not have cared less about people living on an island or landmass out beyond the Strait of Gibraltar, and would simply have had no cause or reason to record the events of those distant people. Indeed, until at least the Late Period, it's highly unlikely the Egyptians had any familiarity with that region, anyway.

There is no real Egyptian connection.

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#531    Abramelin

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 06:17 PM

Say Kmt_sesh, in the good ol'days, when I just believed anything that suited my fantasy, I always thought that the Egyptian 'Amenti' would be closest to anything resembling a 'lost land in the west' or Atlantis.

Before I wrote this post, the most info I got was from Theosophic (Blavatsky) sites EXAMPLE (and what is an 'Aat'??)... and so I searched a bit further...


This is what I found:

Amentet (Ament, Amentit, Imentet, Imentit) was the Egyptian goddess and friend of the dead, and the personification of the Land of the West, 'Amenti'. It was she who welcomed the deceased to their new dwelling place in the netherworld. She was also a goddess who helped with the rebirthing process, and thus a goddess of fertility and rebirth, who regenerated the deceased with food and water.

She was depicted as a beautiful woman as wearing the hieroglyph of the west on her head, carrying a scepter and the ankh of life in her hands. She is occasionally seen as a winged goddess, when linked to the goddesses Isis and Nephthys. The standard of the west is usually a half circle sitting on top of two poles of uneven length, the longer of which is tied to her head by a headband. Often a hawk or an ostrich feather is seen sitting on top of the standard. Occasionally, she is shown wearing just the hawk on her head. She was believed to live in a tree at the edge of the  desert, a place where she could watch the gates to the underworld. She was often shown not only in tombs, but on coffins, being a goddess of the dead.

To word 'Amentet', as used by the Egyptians, was applied to the west bank of the Nile - Egyptian cemeteries and funerary places were all on the west. To the Egyptians, west was a direction linked to death. Amentet was also the name of the underworld - the place where Ra traveled during the night. The place where the sun set was also called by this name, being the entrance to the land of the dead according to Egyptian belief. Amentet - 'She of the West' - was therefor the goddess of not only the land of the dead, but also of the entry to the underworld, and of the west itself.

Amenti or Amentet was originally the place where the sun set, but subsequently the name was applied to the cemeteries and tombs which were usually built or hewn in the stony plateaus and mountains on the western bank of the Nile. Some believe that Amenti was, at first, the name of a small district, without  either funereal or mythological signification. The Christian Egyptians or Copts used the word Amend to translate the Greek word Hades, to which they attributed all the ideas which their heathen ancestors had associated with the Amenti of the Book of the Dead.

-- The Principal Geographical and Mythological Places in the Book of the Dead, E. A. Wallis Budge

http://www.touregypt...ies/amentet.htm


Amenti, Lady at the Gates
This Goddess of the Underworld was responsible for greeting the dead on their arrival in the West. As is often the case in Egyptian religion, Amenti's place was by no means permanent: other tales say Nut, Hathor, Neith or Ma'at greeted the dead.


http://inanna.virtua...ptianshort.html




http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amenti
http://www.touregypt...ies/amentet.htm


What do you think?



EDIT:

I forgot the link (NO, see edit), but she, Amenti, also seems to be associated/personified? with a jackal, much like Cerberus (another canine, lol) guarding Hades.

I can imagine that IF the Egyptians had anything in their myths about some lost land in the west, like Atlantis, it would be a land of the dead.

And this, 'lady of the gates'?? That always made me think of  the Pillars of Hercules.

And then that canine... makes me think of Nehalennia, or Puzzler's Guanches with their dogs.

Nehalennia, an ancient Nordic sea goddess with a dog at her side, and always depicted between two pillars,
Posted Image


"Khenti-Amentiu, also Khentiamentiu, Khenti-Amenti, Kenti-Amentiu and many other spellings, is a divine name or title from Ancient Egyptian mythology. It means 'Foremost of the Westerners' or 'Chief or the Westerners', where 'Westerners' refers to the dead.[1]

Khenti-Amentiu was the name of a jackal-headed deity, most likely associated with Anubis, at Abydos in Upper Egypt, who stood guard over the city of the dead. This god is attested early at Abydos, perhaps even earlier than the unification of Egypt at the start of the Old Kingdom period. The name appears on the necropolis seals for the first dynasty pharaohs Den and Qa'a, and a temple dating back to pre-dynastic times was founded in Abydos for this god"


http://en.wikipedia..../Khenti-Amentiu


Free me from this dream, please.

Help...

:P
.

Edited by Abramelin, 29 September 2010 - 07:13 PM.


#532    SlimJim22

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 09:30 PM

Nice points there Abe. Generated lots of thoughts but sorry they are a bit all over the place. It makes me think of that well in the graveyard and the sycamore tree that grows from it. The sycamore being the symbol of Neith. So on the one Amenti could be the literal underworld caverns they may or may not exist or it could mean the direction of the west where the ancetors migrated from the Sahara. Both are equally plausable.

The dog connection is interesting because just as Cerebrus is the guardian in shamanism there is often a dog guide. Take the story of Cu Cuhlain as an example but I'm sure there are others. There is also that mummy from Libya with a dog artefact of some kind. Was Anubis the guardian or the guide? I can't remember.

I also considered the Vedic Patala as that too is the underworld.

The lowest realm is called Patala or Nagaloka, the region of the Nagas, ruled by Vasuki. Here live several Nagas with many hoods. Each of their hood is decorated by a jewel, whose light illuminates this realm.[3][4][6]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patala

Nothing else really fitted with what you were saying unfortunately but any connection would have had to travel a long way and would be elaborated upon in time. Still I'll leave that one I think.

Here's a link with a prehistoric timeline of Africa. Not sure how accurate it is but it's worth a look.

http://wysinger.home.../badarians.html

You may like this next one. Lots of images of petroglyphs from around the world. I guess it highlight how similar imagery can arise without diffusion. Particularly as it regards shamanism as it could be a third source of inspiration.

http://droushka.blog...-paintings.html

I was looking for some lead on the bird feathers but feather cloaks are common amongst all types of shamanism. I think it highly likely that this is where the image of wings and angels originally came from. The pole with the feather atop smacks of a axis mundi symbol. Some symbols are just universal I guess. Good link on Eliade and it mentions the "Lady of the Depths".

http://www.elfhill.c...tings/lleu.html

I think your suggestion is a good one though Abe. As the desert advanced it would make sense that this became the land of the dead or underworld. Not sure why we find the symbols we do but they are rarely isolated in their meanings. Life and death are universal concepts as are animals and plant life. I suspect Plato was experienced in deciphering symbols and wove a complex plot of his own. He obviously meant something when he spoke of Atlas bearing the burden of the heavens or whatever he says but perhaps he was careful not to use symbols that would make it too obvious. The symbolism seems quite un-egyptian imo. Ok there is importance put on bulls but that is common to the entire region. No dogs or ladies either. Sorry for the rather pointless post. I better go read some more links Swede gave me.

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#533    kmt_sesh

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 09:48 PM

I feel your pain, Abramelin. The more one adheres to charlatans like Blavatsky and Cayce and their ilk, the farther from reality one gets.

Before I proceed, what indeed is an "'Aat"? I probably missed it but reviewed the page in your link and didn't spot it.

I've seen wackadoo ideas applied to "Amenti," too. The word is usually transliterated as imntt and in a generic sense means "west," as in the cardinal direction. But as your research pointed out, in a ritual and religious sense it was a reference to the destination of deceased people--the land of the dead. It's true that most ancient Egyptian cemeteries were situated on the west side of the Nile (not all but most), and this is true going back into prehistory, also. This is of course tied in with the path of the sun--the journey Re took in bringing the sun through the sky each day--so from the beginning it appears the Egyptians associated the west, where the sun died each night, with the underworld.

In one sense Imentet (how I prefer to spell it) represents a physical location: the necropolis in the west.  More importantly, however, it represents the spiritual plane of existence where all Egyptians went after they had died. At the same time it does indeed represent the goddess by the same name, who personified the west. As your research indicated, she could be a goddess unto herself or closely associated with a more prominent goddess, most particularly either Isis or Hathor. Your research mentioned the iconography of the goddess Imentet, and here's one way she is depicted in Books of the Dead.

That's it in a nutshell. Your contribution explains much of the rest. The important thing for everyone to realize and understand, the inane nonsense of fruitcakes aside, is that the Egyptian Imentet is in no way, shape, or form related to Atlantis!

The Egyptian xnty-imntw (Khentyimentu) has rather obscure origins but you explained it pretty well. This god does seem originally to have been a separate and individual canid or jackal god, and from the nome of Abydos. This is also where Anubis came from, of course, and Anubis was probably the original primary lord of the dead of that region. Osiris came along much later--our earliest evidence for him in Egyptian religion does not appear until mid- to late Dynasty 5. Anubis seems to have assumed many of the roles of Khentyimentu as "foremost of the Westerners," but after Osiris' cult grew in popularity, Osiris also took on this epithet. You can see "Khentyimentu" appearing in the titles of both Anubis and Osiris, although in time it was Osiris who most often claimed the title; xnty-sH-nTr (Khenty-seh-netjer), "He who is before the divine booth," became one of Anubis' primary epithets.

None of this has anything whatsoever to do with Plato's tale of Atlantis. In the clear light of day, I have to stress it again: Atlantis is simply not part of Egyptian tradition in any form. For those who doubt me, by all means feel free to do so. But instead of merely doubting me, please provide definitive evidence to contradict my position on this. ;)

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#534    kmt_sesh

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 10:10 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 29 September 2010 - 09:30 PM, said:

Was Anubis the guardian or the guide? I can't remember...

No, that was Snoopy. :D

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Anubis was kind of both. As with most other Egyptian deities Anubis had a number of roles, including guardian of the cemetery and the deceased person's guide through the travails his soul encountered on the way to the land of the dead. And of course, Anubis was the officiant in the weighing of the heart--what we call Spell 125 from the Book of the Dead but the spell the Egyptians knew as the Chamber of Two Truths. His title there was "Guardian of the Balance." Moreover, Anubis was kind of the "patron god" of the embalmers. There were shrines for Anubis and certain rituals devised to venerate him, but his cult was not as widespread as other related deities like Osiris and Sokar. There reason for this is--as an Egyptologist I know likes to say--it would be kind of like worshipping the Grim Reaper.

Overall, canid cults existed but were not as prominent as feline cults, particularly those centered around the great goddess Bastet. In simple terms the dog in ancient Egypt was, by all appearances, for the most part utilitarian in purpose. Many were pets, of course, so I don't want to downplay that. A couple of stelae show the master with his dogs, and the dogs are even named. But when we looks to the cults, we can't help but to see the dominance cats held. While dogs were mummified and interred in catacombs at necropoli like Saqqara, millions more cats were the subjects of such rituals.

For anyone who's interested, the latest issue of Archaeology magazine has a very interesting article on the domestication of doggies and their place with humans down through time.

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#535    SlimJim22

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 10:21 PM

From Manly Hall's Secret Teachings..

From a careful consideration of Plato's description of Atlantis it is evident that the story should not be regarded as wholly historical but rather as both allegorical and historical. Origen, Porphyry, Proclus, Iamblichus, and Syrianus realized that the story concealed a profound philosophical mystery, but they disagreed as to the actual interpretation. Plato's Atlantis symbolizes the threefold nature of both the universe and the human body. The ten kings of Atlantis are the tetractys, or numbers, which are born as five pairs of opposites. (Consult Theon of Smyrna for the Pythagorean doctrine of opposites.) The numbers 1 to 10 rule every creature, and the numbers, in turn, are under the control of the Monad, or 1--the Eldest among them.

With the trident scepter of Poseidon these kings held sway over the inhabitants of the seven small and three great islands comprising Atlantis. Philosophically, the ten islands symbolize the triune powers of the Superior Deity and the seven regents who bow before His eternal throne. If Atlantis be considered as the archetypal sphere, then its immersion signifies the descent of rational, organized consciousness into the illusionary, impermanent realm of irrational, mortal ignorance. Both the sinking of Atlantis and the Biblical story of the "fall of man" signify spiritual involution--a prerequisite to conscious evolution.

Either the initiated Plato used the Atlantis allegory to achieve two widely different ends or else the accounts preserved by the Egyptian priests were tampered with to perpetuate the secret doctrine. This does not mean to imply that Atlantis is purely mythological, but it overcomes the most serious obstacle to acceptance of the Atlantis theory, namely, the fantastic accounts of its origin, size, appearance, and date of destruction--9600 B.C. In the midst of the central island of Atlantis was a lofty mountain which cast a shadow five thousand stadia in extent and whose summit touched the sphere of Šther. This is the axle mountain of the world, sacred among many races and symbolic of the human head, which rises out of the four elements of the body. This sacred mountain, upon whose summit stood the temple of the gods, gave rise to the stories of Olympus, Meru, and Asgard. The City of the Golden Gates--the capital of Atlantis--is the one now preserved among numerous religions as the City of the Gods or the Holy City. Here is the archetype of the New Jerusalem, with its streets paved with gold and its twelve gates shining with precious stones.

"The history of Atlantis," writes Ignatius Donnelly, "is the key of the Greek mythology. There can be no question that these gods of Greece were human beings. The tendency to attach divine attributes to great earthly rulers is one deeply implanted in human nature." (See Atlantis.)

The same author sustains his views by noting that the deities of the Greek pantheon were nor looked upon as creators of the universe but rather as regents set over it by its more ancient original fabricators. The Garden of Eden from which humanity was driven by a flaming sword is perhaps an allusion to the earthly paradise supposedly located west of the Pillars of Hercules and destroyed by volcanic cataclysms. The Deluge legend may be traced also to the Atlantean inundation, during which a "world" was destroyed by water.,


http://www.sacred-te...o/sta/sta07.htm

Just as Atlantis could be seen as an allegorical tale of the fall of the Minoan empire, could it also be used for the demise of the Phoenicians? Not as literally of course but there seems to be a Phoenician link somewhere in with Atlantis. Some claim that the Phenicians themselves claim a heirtage of 30,000 years. Not sure about that but they could be the remnant of a more ancient culture.

http://www.saeculari.../phoenicia.html

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#536    Swede

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Posted 29 September 2010 - 11:03 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 29 September 2010 - 10:29 AM, said:

The geology of Richat is really in tune with exactly what Plato says.

The Richat structure (Sahara, Mauritania) appears as a large dome at least 40 km in diameter within a Late Proterozoic to Ordovician sequence. Erosion has created circular cuestas represented by three nested rings dipping outward from the structure. The center of the structure consists of a limestone-dolomite shelf that encloses a kilometer-scale siliceous breccia and is intruded by basaltic ring dikes, kimberlitic intrusions, and alkaline volcanic rocks. Several hypotheses have been presented to explain the spectacular Richat structure and breccia, but their origin remains enigmatic. The breccia body is lenticular in shape and irregularly thins at its extremities to only a few meters. The breccia was created during karst dissolution and collapse. Internal sediments fill the centimeter- to meter-scale cavities. Alkaline enrichment and the presence of Cretaceous automorphous neoformed K-feldspar demonstrate the hydrothermal origin of these internal sediments and their contemporaneity with magmatism. A model is proposed in which doming and the production of hydrothermal fluids were instrumental in creating a favorable setting for dissolution. The circular Richat structure and its breccia core thus represent the superficial expression of a Cretaceous alkaline complex with an exceptionally well preserved hydrothermal karst infilling at its summit.
http://geology.gsapu.../8/665.abstract

Hydrothermal. Hot springs.
Maybe fissures, vents.

Here's research on it being created electrically...

------------------------------------------
Posted Image

Why do these three craters and a fourth line up and why are they so circular? We suggest these three craters are part of the same discharge event series. Circularity is an earmark of Birkeland-current machined craters.

See: TPOD for April 07, 2005 Earth's Richat Crater

Tenoumer crater, diameter 1.9 km, N 22░55' - W 10░24'

See: http://disc.gsfc.nas...lateT-61.K.jpeg

Satellites photos show this crater, located on top of the Pliocene (or younger) sediments overlaying Precambrian gneisses and granites in the western Sahara desert, Mauritania. to be quite circular. Projectiles found outside the crater are up to 20m long and consist of rock material containing altered gneiss and granite clasts with small fractured glass inclusions on the surface.

Temimichat crater, diameter 750 m, N 24░15' - W 9░39'

See: http://www.image-con...ania/index.html
It is interesting to note that the Richat Crater is very slightly oval and its major axis is inline with the two other craters. We suggest that these three craters are part of the same discharge event series, conventional "dating" notwithstanding. Crater chains are a common result of electric arcs passing over a cathode surface because the arc "sticks" and machines out a circle and then jumps to repeat the process.

The excavated material is accelerated upwards, some into space, some to fall back down around the area, and some to just pile up along the edge forming the raised rims.  The twisted Birkeland current of the discharge channel usually doesn't machine as intensely in the center of the crater and it leaves a formation of undisturbed material ranging from a slightly elevated mound to a tall spike of rock. The type of central "peak" depends on many factors: the narrowness, focus and intensity of the Birkeland current, the type of material being excavated and the material's current carrying capacity.

When the current is narrow and intense, and the material is dense, most of the excavated material is accelerated away from the area. The result is deep canyons and/or craters with steep walls and central spikes. Conversely, broad, less intense currents machine out shallow craters with central mounds, less steep walls, and material piled up along the edge and strewn around the more immediate area.

Relatively flat floors are a feature of this Electric Discharge Machining  (EDM), and our modern industry uses tightly controlled EDM to produce extremely smooth surfaces on molds for "polished" surfaces on plastic parts or products. Those who have experience with machine shop EDM have no difficulty in relating to this model of crater formation.

Composed by Shaun Bourke and Michael Armstrong


http://www.thunderbo...chatrevisit.htm

Re: The bolded above - It may be that you are misinterpreting the information previously provided. Hydrothermal fluids consist of hot magma with a high water content. The date of their influence on the formation of the Richat Structure vastly precedes any knowledge that would have been present in the first millenium BC. Note article and please see below;

http://encyclopedia2...drothermal vent

In regards to the structure being flooded by the glacial wasting of the late Pleistocene the following (previously presented) should lay that issue to rest.

http://en.wikipedia....etation_map.png

As to the following information, this is the "work" of David Talbott. Yet another notably unqualified "Velikovskian". See below.

http://en.wikipedia....i/David_Talbott

.


#537    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 03:38 AM

View Postcormac mac airt, on 29 September 2010 - 03:47 PM, said:

Gutscher also says:



Spartel Island Not Likely Atlantis

cormac
The guy does all this research and then suddenly just lies down and says like a robot, it cannot be Atlantis because no Bronze Age culture was there...he sounds like he got a bad phone call to me... :ph34r: lol

Anyways, doesn't cut it for me, can you show me a reference in either Timaeus or Critias for BRONZE?

Brass (copper/zinc), tin, orichalcum (possibly mountain copper, no one really knows for certain)....don't see Bronze, maybe I missed it, can you or anyone point it out to me....



The earlier translations of the chariots have them as step up board type, not some Roman styled chariot, what do you expect to find of these? A piece of board or is everyone looking for more advanced chariots? Erichthonius is given the honour of being the first Athenian to make a 4 horsed chariot, he is also mentioned as being in the War of Atlantis and Athens.



As I said Helios had BOTH, he had a sailing ship, his golden cup and he had a 4 horse quadriga chariot.

Aboriginals crossed into Australia c. 70,000BC they say time framed to when the Arafura and Northern Australian seas were at a boat crossing depth - in BOATS, they didn't walk across, they can make boats in a split second with their eyes closed, from a piece of bark they strip off a tree and make it with thier teeth, sail it to the Torres Strait, we really have NO IDEA of what these ancient people were capable of but should accept no amount of archaeology is going to uncover what they could do. Aboriginals barely had any tools yet they were a very successful cultural people in a large, harsh isolated country, they lived WITH the land, they built nothing in the way of buildings, no farming, no grazing, no cleared land, it seems like no one was even here that long ago...

To think they (man in Africa) couldn't make a boat and sail it nor tie up 4 or 2 horses to a wooden board when they had NO bronze is losing the point of what man was capable of doing.

If you think about the actual story of Poseidon and Athena's contest for Athens too, who says it's recent, when Poseidon stabs in his trident in anger and floods with an earthquake Athens from losing, that then created a flood they say, which flooded Attica and Athens, so why couldn't this flood be the one that removed all the top soil off the Acropolis rock?

Edited post to add: This I infer because Solon said that the priests in their narrative of that war mentioned most of the names which are recorded prior to the time of Theseus, such as Cecrops, and Erechtheus, and Erichthonius, and Erysichthon, and the names of the women in like manner.

Edited by The Puzzler, 30 September 2010 - 04:03 AM.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#538    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 03:56 AM

Other metals mentioned, I see no Bronze, lots of gold, easily melted down when found -

The entire circuit of the wall, which went round the outermost zone, they covered with a coating of brass, and the circuit of the next wall they coated with tin, and the third, which encompassed the citadel, flashed with the red light of orichalcum.

The palaces in the interior of the citadel were constructed on this wise:-in the centre was a holy temple dedicated to Cleito and Poseidon, which remained inaccessible, and was surrounded by an enclosure of gold; this was the spot where the family of the ten princes first saw the light, and thither the people annually brought the fruits of the earth in their season from all the ten portions, to be an offering to each of the ten. Here was Poseidon's own temple which was a stadium in length, and half a stadium in width, and of a proportionate height, having a strange barbaric appearance. All the outside of the temple, with the exception of the pinnacles, they covered with silver, and the pinnacles with gold. In the interior of the temple the roof was of ivory, curiously wrought everywhere with gold and silver and orichalcum; and all the other parts, the walls and pillars and floor, they coated with orichalcum. In the temple they placed statues of gold: there was the god himself standing in a chariot-the charioteer of six winged horses-and of such a size that he touched the roof of the building with his head; around him there were a hundred Nereids riding on dolphins, for such was thought to be the number of them by the men of those days. There were also in the interior of the temple other images which had been dedicated by private persons. And around the temple on the outside were placed statues of gold of all the descendants of the ten kings and of their wives, and there were many other great offerings of kings and of private persons, coming both from the city itself and from the foreign cities over which they held sway. There was an altar too, which in size and workmanship corresponded to this magnificence, and the palaces, in like manner, answered to the greatness of the kingdom and the glory of the temple.


So, why is it is the Bronze Age? Or is it?

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#539    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 04:33 AM

View PostSwede, on 29 September 2010 - 11:03 PM, said:

Re: The bolded above - It may be that you are misinterpreting the information previously provided. Hydrothermal fluids consist of hot magma with a high water content. The date of their influence on the formation of the Richat Structure vastly precedes any knowledge that would have been present in the first millenium BC. Note article and please see below;

http://encyclopedia2...drothermal vent

In regards to the structure being flooded by the glacial wasting of the late Pleistocene the following (previously presented) should lay that issue to rest.

http://en.wikipedia....etation_map.png

As to the following information, this is the "work" of David Talbott. Yet another notably unqualified "Velikovskian". See below.

http://en.wikipedia....i/David_Talbott

.

Thanks again for that.

I still it's all reather open-ended really. Atlas did have glaciers when the map you gave should show. c. 20,000BC

In Africa, the Middle East and Southeast Asia, many smaller mountain glaciers formed, especially in the Atlas, the Bale Mountains, and New Guinea.

It might be when the Nile was said to flow from Atlas to Egypt and join the other Nile.
http://en.wikipedia....Glacial_Maximum

It could be this that creates the huge canal of Atlantis, by cutting the top of Africa off. If a river flowed from Atlas to the Nile it would have created an island of sorts at the top of North Africa.

I found this link up extremely interesting:

The word "Nile" comes from Greek Neilos (Νεῖλος), of unknown derivation. In the ancient Egyptian language, the Nile is called Ḥ'pī or iteru, meaning "great river", represented by the hieroglyphs shown on the left (literally itrw, and 'waters' determinative).[3] In Coptic, the words piaro (Sahidic) or phiaro (Bohairic) meaning "the river" (lit. p(h).iar-o "the.canal-great") come from the same ancient name.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nile

Hapy the Nile river God is the Great River OK, then the Pharoahs (phiaro) name means the river or the.canal-great.

Pharoah can mean the great canal, that is the Nile, the great river.

In an mmm bop it's gone...

#540    cormac mac airt

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 04:55 AM

Quote

So, why is it is the Bronze Age? Or is it?

The Bronze Age in the Aegean runs from c.3000 BC to 1300BC.

Triremes belong to the Bronze Age. Evidence for the earliest sea craft dates no earlier than c.6000 BC and were one person boats.

From Critias:

Quote

The entire circuit of the wall, which went round the outermost zone, they covered with a coating
of brass, and the circuit of the next wall they coated with tin, and the third, which encompassed
the citadel, flashed with the red light of orichalcum.

Brass at its earliest dates to the Bronze Age.

In the temple they placed statues of gold: there was the god himself standing in a Chariot.

Quote

Chariots, and especially spoke-wheeled chariots, date to the 3rd millenium BC and are also Bronze Age.

Bronze is a metal alloy. The Bronze Age is a period in ancient history from c.3000 BC to c.1300 BC. It's the period in time that's being discussed, not the metal.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus




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