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Plato's Atlantis -- Made Up or Based on Fact?


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#556    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 03:52 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 30 September 2010 - 02:46 PM, said:

Maybe the names of individuals often shed light on the meaning behind the story.

For example Atlas comes from the root of 'to endure'.
Lapetus the father of Atlas has the meaning 'piercer'.
Noah means 'rest' or 'comfy'.

http://www.riaanbooy...3-plato?start=2

http://www.world-mys...500yearsago.pdf

http://jsp.sagepub.c.../4/277.abstract

http://www.michaelsh...fense chart.pdf

Basically the tale of Atlantis could in one way correspond with the sea peoples. Therefore I don't think greekk myth should be read in isolation. If for convenience sake we break it down into the two main cults, them being Zeus and Poseidon then we may find parallels elsehwere. They will not fit perfectly but they could help.

I think that the cult of Zeus albeit in a different form was the mainsay of egyptian religion. Therefore we would be unsurprised to find any direct mention of an Atlantis like place. However, if we look at the enemies of Egypt we may start to find things in common with the cult of Poseidon.

Chariots of the Hyksos, possibly the Hittites and hebrews. Ok I better justify that. How's about titan as it may derive from Al Shaitan or Leviathan. Metaphorically it seems like the titans became the figures of chaos, Poseidon being included with them though he was actually an Olympian. The cult of Zeus on the other hand represented order. Thus we find a common parallel eith Set as chaos and Osiris as order. It could also have a close connecion to the tower of Babel. If these are all seen as metaphors for the collapse of one way of life to be replaced by the new and different the Atlantis fits very well. The archetypal tale of destruction but importantly rebirth because though the titans are defeated they are not destroyed and continue to tutor and watch over mankind even though hey have lost control of civilization.

Good link on titans. My head is mangled from trying to see from these different angles and I expect a hefty amount of criticism for this.  :alien:

http://members.tripo...azade/gods.html

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Sea_Peoples
Many are on the Olympians side too and have a place in the new generation of Gods. My head is getting very mangled now.. :wacko:

I think the word comes from the native name of the mountain which is Douris, maybe PIE related durus=hard and then it relates to Greek endure, so the Greeks called the mountains Atlas, which meant the same as the name in Berber. The mountain itself would be described as hard, enduring and it would then seem the North African natives spoke a form of PIE language...
Edit to add: http://www.etymonlin...php?term=endure

There is alternate writings of Atlas being a King of Mauritania, an expert astrologer.

A euhemerist origin for Atlas was as a legendary Atlas, king of Mauretania, an expert astronomer
http://en.wikipedia....tlas_(mythology)

Remember in that Sanchuiathon writings it said how real people were given appelations like this, a mountain. Perseus revealed Medusa's head to Atlas turning him to stone according to Ovid, so his telling could be the cross-over from a person to a mountain Titan...

To add more confusion, Atlas is often a doublet for Coeus, we don't hear much of him but he is the actual celestial axis - Polus. The celestial Pole.
He is the father of Leto, mother of Artemis and Apollo and also Asteria, whose is mother of Hecate.

In Greek mythology, Coeus (Ancient Greek: Κοῖος, Koios) was one of the Titans, the giant sons and daughters of Uranus (Heaven) and Gaia (Earth). His equivalent in Latin poetry—though he scarcely makes an appearance in Roman mythology—[1] was Polus,[2] the embodiment of the celestial axis around which the heavens revolve. Like most of the Titans he played no active part in Greek religion—he appears only in lists of Titans—[3] but was primarily important for his descendants.[4] With his sister, "shining" Phoebe, Coeus fathered Leto[5] and Asteria.[6] Leto copulated with Zeus (the son of fellow Titans Cronus and Rhea) and bore Artemis and Apollo.

Along with the other Titans, Coeus was overthrown by Zeus and other Olympians. After the Titan War, he and all his brothers were banished into Tartarus by Zeus


When Coeus was banished to Tartarus, that is the Celestial Axis fell to the Underworld (?), Atlas took his place to keep the chaos from resuming...

Edited by The Puzzler, 30 September 2010 - 03:53 PM.

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#557    Oniomancer

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 04:02 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 September 2010 - 07:53 AM, said:

Sorry, not me.

I can add to the nightmare though... B)


Because it sounds alot like when I could also place her and the Europeans in the Canaries in the OLB thread. The Lady of the Underworld, the Lady of Hel, the Lady who guards the gates of Hel oops the Underworld.

I just burnt myself earlier and cursed "friggin' hell", you know, like ****g hell but nicer to say in front of the children...so then I realised what I said, Frigg In Hel. A curse word to a Christian based people.
Not quite, And I don't think you'd be quite so quick to use "frig" if it were still the common word it used to be, as used most famously in translations of the works of the Marquis De Sade.

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#558    Abramelin

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 04:04 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 September 2010 - 02:48 PM, said:

Amenti to me seems like Amen, then I saw it mentioned that it is like Amen, the hidden God.

Amun/Amen seemed to sound like God to me here:

As the Egyptians considered themselves oppressed during the period of the Hyksos rule, the victory accomplished by pharaohs worshiping Amun was seen as a champion of the less fortunate. Consequently, Amun was viewed as upholding the rights of justice for the poor.[1] By aiding those who traveled in his name, he became the Protector of the road. Since he upheld Ma'at (truth, justice, and goodness) ,[1] those who prayed to Amun were required, first, to demonstrate that they were worthy by confessing their sins. Votive stela from the artisans village at Deir el-Medina record:

[Amun] who comes at the voice of the poor in distress, who gives breath to him who is wretched..You are Amun, the Lord of the silent, who comes at the voice of the poor; when I call to you in my distress You come and rescue me...Though the servant was disposed to do evil, the Lord is disposed to forgive. The Lord of Thebes spends not a whole day in anger; His wrath passes in a moment; none remains. His breath comes back to us in mercy..May your ka be kind; may you forgive; It shall not happen again.


Maybe he really is God and that's why we say Amen at the end of The Lord's Prayer.

I don't think Amun is Zeus, no matter what the Greeks thought and many of them didn't think he was Zeus, they say he was Pan, which I agree with.

How about that, here you can see that the title Amun can mean Lord.
http://books.google....n&f=false  Page 105
The few notes on that page are interesting. Plutarch says Pan, the All is Amun.
Aristotle explains the absence of the Moon in Arcadia.


Etymology
Amen, meaning so be it, is of Hebrew origin. The word was imported into the Greek of the early Church from the Jewish synagogue. From Greek, amen entered the other Western languages. According to a standard dictionary etymology, amen passed from Greek into Late Latin, and thence into English.

The Hebrew word amen derives from the Hebrew verb ʼāmán, a primitive root. Grammarians frequently list ʼāmán under its three consonants (aleph-mem-nun), which are identical to those of ʼāmēn (note that the Hebrew letter א aleph originally represented a glottal stop sound, which functioned as a consonant in the morphology of Hebrew).This triliteral root means to be firm, confirmed, reliable, faithful, have faith, believe.

Popular among some theosophists,proponents of Afrocentric theories of history, and adherents of esoteric Christianity is the conjecture that amen is a derivative of the name of the Egyptian god Amun (which is sometimes also spelled Amen). Some adherents of Eastern religions believe that amen shares roots with the Sanskrit word, aum. There is no academic support for either of these views. Note that the Hebrew word, as noted above, starts with aleph, while the Egyptian name begins with a yodh.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amen


#559    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 04:11 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 30 September 2010 - 03:07 PM, said:

Nice thought Puzz. I often hit a dead end when researching Pan and it had my non-senses twitching like mad. Apparently there were many Pans, they were called panes and may have become synonymous with satyrs. There is the saltman of Iran but I had taken it to be about the wild and lustful cults of Arcadia that were at heart similar to wicca or something. Altough I think you could be on to something I can't believe that Pan had any connection to Amon Ra of Egypt. 'All is hidden' yes because it is quite shavistic or monistic at least and it fits with my view. Who knows, could be.

http://www.whitedrag...rticles/pan.htm

You do have amon sort of in pandamonium but I prefer to think that Amon is a prefix or suffix that means hidden. Saying it after prayer still invokes what is to sacred to speak perhaps. I have also considered before the connection to the vedic AUM

Isn't there a myth with Ra that Isis found his secret name? Maybe that has some explanation for why he became Amon Ra.
As the cult of Amun grew in importance, Amun became identified with the chief deity who was worshipped in other areas during that period, Ra-Herakhty, the merged identities of Ra and Horus. This identification led to another merger of identities, with Amun becoming Amun-Ra. In the Hymn to Amun-Ra he is described as "Lord of truth, father of the gods, maker of men, creator of all animals, Lord of things that are, creator of the staff of life."[5] By then Ra had been described as the father of Shu, Tefnut, and the remainder of the Ennead, so Amun-Ra likewise, became identified as their father.

Ra-Herakhty had been a solar deity and this nature became ascribed to Amun-Ra as well, Amun becoming considered the hidden aspect of the sun during the night, in contrast to Ra-Herakhty as the visible aspect during the day. Amun clearly meant the one who is hidden. This complexity over the sun led to a gradual movement toward the support of a more pure form of deity.

But Amun was a deity before he became Amon-Ra so perhaps it is the earlier form of him...

But the description given above of Amon-Ra sounds like God to me. Lord of Truth, father of the Gods, maker of men, creator of all animals, Lord of things that are, creator of the staff of life.

From PAGAN WORDS TO AVOID lol - from who?  :ph34r:    http://shekinahlifec...AGAN_WORDS.html

AMEN

The Hebrew of the Old Testament reveals to us that the Scriptural Hebrew word (which means: so be it, or verily, or surely) is "Amein" and not "Amen." Likewise, the Greek equivalent in the Greek New Testament is pronounced: "Amein." The Egyptians, including the Alexandrians, had been worshiping, or been acquainted with, the head of the Egyptian pantheon, Amen-Ra, the great sun-deity, for more than one thousand years B.C. Before he was known as Amen-Ra, he was known as Amen among the Thebans.

According to Funk and Wagnall's Standard College Dictionary, AMEN was the god of life and procreation in Egyptian mythology, and later identified with the Sun-god as the supreme deity and called "Amen-Ra." Smith's Bible Dictionary and Egyptian Belief and Modern Thought agree.

Our Saviour Yahushua calls Himself "the Amein" in Revelation 3:14. One might ask: Have we been misled to invoke the name of the Egyptian sun-deity at the end of our prayers?


PRESENTED IN REVELATIONS 22:21


KJV - Amen


ISR - Amęn (pronounced Ah-mein)



Uh, yeah, I think so.

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#560    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 04:29 PM

Abramelin.

Since the Hebrews spent much time in Egypt and their religion only developed from their time there it is not infeasible that they took the concept from them at all imo.

I saw your etymology, yep, maybe it transfers through in the different language, say, in Hebrew they took the name of Yamanu while in Egypt and they pronounced it aman, which to them meant a maker of men, a so be it kind of God. Firm, faith, believe. The hidden. A belief in the hidden. Pretty much what faith is too.

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#561    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 04:35 PM

View PostOniomancer, on 30 September 2010 - 04:02 PM, said:

Not quite, And I don't think you'd be quite so quick to use "frig" if it were still the common word it used to be, as used most famously in translations of the works of the Marquis De Sade.
We like the word here in that form, my father in law has a beauty of fishermans song, it goes: friggin' in the riggin' cause there's um....frigg all else to do...lol

I know it means the cruder form of word that's why I replaced it with it, but isn't that weird how it matches up with Hell so nicely since Frigg was a Goddess and they were all Pagan doers of evil deeds, in the eyes of the Church. Not to mention the replacement of the word itself.

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#562    Abramelin

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 04:41 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 September 2010 - 04:29 PM, said:

Abramelin.

Since the Hebrews spent much time in Egypt and their religion only developed from their time there it is not infeasible that they took the concept from them at all imo.

I saw your etymology, yep, maybe it transfers through in the different language, say, in Hebrew they took the name of Yamanu while in Egypt and they pronounced it aman, which to them meant a maker of men, a so be it kind of God. Firm, faith, believe. The hidden. A belief in the hidden. Pretty much what faith is too.

Ending a prayer with "so be it" seems more logical than with "hidden one" or "maker of men" or with "God".


#563    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 04:48 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 30 September 2010 - 12:17 PM, said:

LOL, did you check this link http://www.etymonlin...x.php?term=frig ? And that's kind of an official site, but if I post what it says, 'there will be stars'...

Btw, it would be nice if the ancient Meso Americans had a mythical land called 'Morning Land'.

Europe is said to have gotten it's name by the Greek 'Europa', but another explanation says it got it's name from the Semitic word for 'evening', Erev.

And... are you suggesting there must be 3 underworlds because Atlantis City had 3 rings???
I can see that the North Sea may have been one and maybe one in the Atlantic, Atlantis area and at the Canaries, yes, all circa 10,000BC to 8500BC. I came to a similar conclusion when I spun my brain around somewhat that each flood is a water circle on Atlantis. Not because, but it might have a connection.

The Europa thing is intriguing but I'll have to leave it for tomorrow now, I haven't forgotten the Goddess of the Underworld either...
I'll quickly edit this post before someone jumps on me for wanting archaeological evidence, the catastrophe at the Canaries would be c. 6500BC not 8,500BC, when Teide is thought to have erupted.

Edited by The Puzzler, 30 September 2010 - 04:57 PM.

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#564    The Puzzler

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 04:55 PM

View PostAbramelin, on 30 September 2010 - 04:41 PM, said:

Ending a prayer with "so be it" seems more logical than with "hidden one" or "maker of men" or with "God".
The hidden one can be whatever you want him to be. The Jehovahs will teach you that Gods name Yahweh means whatever, I thought that was great, whatever...in the context of, whatever you want him to be, why, because he's hidden, we can't see him.

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#565    kmt_sesh

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 05:32 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 September 2010 - 04:29 PM, said:

Abramelin.

Since the Hebrews spent much time in Egypt and their religion only developed from their time there it is not infeasible that they took the concept from them at all imo.

I saw your etymology, yep, maybe it transfers through in the different language, say, in Hebrew they took the name of Yamanu while in Egypt and they pronounced it aman, which to them meant a maker of men, a so be it kind of God. Firm, faith, believe. The hidden. A belief in the hidden. Pretty much what faith is too.

Judaism, from its nascent stages onward, contains only snippets of ancient Egyptian religion. We see it preserved in some prayers and passages of the Old Testament, and at times the similarities are remarkable, leading one to realize that ancient Egypt did indeed influence Judaism. However, the degree of influence is usually exaggerated, and often dramatically so. Judaism is not an offshoot of ancient Egyptian religion, and infact the early Hebrews were clearly much more influenced by their Canaanite kin and by other neighboring religions such as the form of Zoroastrianism practiced by the Persian elite. Concepts of monotheism were much more influenced by Zoroastrianism than by ancient Egyptian religion, for example. It wasn't even until the post-exilic period that Judaism seems to have abandoned henotheism for true monotheism.

The name of the god Amun is unrelated to the Hebraic declaration of "Amen." Our very spelling of the Egyptian god's name and the variants in spelling (e.g., Amun, Amen, Amon) derive from the fact that the true vowels of the name are lost to us. The most we can do is reconstruct the consonants and weak consonants as seen in the transliterated 'imn. Indeed, our rendering of Amun or Amen or Amon may be considerably different from how it sounded in pharaonic Egypt, depending on how vowels were prefixed, inserted, and suffixed.

The name "Amen" does not mean "maker of men." It means "Hidden One." As a generic noun the ancient Egyptian 'imn simply means "hidden." To the Egyptians this god was both knowable and unknowable, both mysterious and intimate. I needn't go into a discourse on this but you get the idea. We may not know the true pronunciation but the meaning, definitely yes. More importantly, there is no evidence that the Egyptian "Amun" and the Hebraic "Amen" are cognates. No linguistic studies of which I am aware would support this argument, as frequently as it is brought up by laypeople who are perhaps over-enthusiastic to tie in Judaism with pagan Egypt.

I can see how you might argue the similar "hidden" nature of Amun and Yahweh, but this does not imply or support a real connection. By their very nature and by the ways their cults were developed and practiced, Amun and Yahweh are significantly different in almost every meaningful way.

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#566    Abramelin

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 05:34 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 September 2010 - 04:55 PM, said:

The hidden one can be whatever you want him to be. The Jehovahs will teach you that Gods name Yahweh means whatever, I thought that was great, whatever...in the context of, whatever you want him to be, why, because he's hidden, we can't see him.

Must be my crappy English, but I think you don't get my point.

When someone says, "I hope that one day there will be peace and harmony the world over and all politicians will be locked up", then another could say , "I'll say amen to that".

Why is that?

It has nothing to do with any name of God, it's something of an agreement between the two people, 'so be it'.


#567    kmt_sesh

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 05:40 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 30 September 2010 - 04:55 PM, said:

The hidden one can be whatever you want him to be. The Jehovahs will teach you that Gods name Yahweh means whatever, I thought that was great, whatever...in the context of, whatever you want him to be, why, because he's hidden, we can't see him.

As an addendum to my previous post, I just noticed this one of yours. I should stress that the word 'imn as well as the name of the god in Egypt, does not necessarily imply physically hidden, as in unseeable. It suggests more of the spiritual than the physical. The word "hidden" is about as close as we can come in English to translate 'imn, and it doesn't do the job very well. That is the case with many ancient Egyptian words, especially pertaining to worship and religion (hence the clumsy ways we are forced to translate words like kA, bA, and ax).

The "hidden" nature of Yahweh is something altogether different and stems from early Judaism's dislike of iconographical worship. It's not the same in ancient Egypt, where iconographical worship was the main throughout pharaonic history. The god Amun, for example, was depicted in wall paintings, temple reliefs, stelae, statuary, and a myriad of other forms from the New Kingdom on. Those Egyptians loved their icons, and to them the physical form and appearance of Amun was very familiar and knowable.

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#568    Harte

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 06:12 PM

I though Yahweh meant "I Am."

Where am I wrong?

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#569    cormac mac airt

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 06:24 PM

View PostHarte, on 30 September 2010 - 06:12 PM, said:

I though Yahweh meant "I Am."

Where am I wrong?

Harte

It does. You're not wrong.

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#570    Abramelin

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Posted 30 September 2010 - 06:29 PM

I think we all are getting a bit offtopic, something which I was already afraid of when I started about 'Amenti', LOL.





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