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K. Dona :The Hidden History of the Human Race


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#31    lightly

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 01:03 AM

View PostAbramelin, on 05 October 2010 - 06:46 PM, said:

Why do people the world over love to wear jewels, rings, necklaces. hats, and so on.

People want to be seen as special, different from the mob.

And no doubt many all over the world found out that some people were born with a deformed head.

That is nothing but simple birth deformaties.


Hell, god(s) know, maybe an elongated head was something special, like having 12 fingers or green eyes or 4 arms.

Hi Abramelin,  ya, maybe so..  maybe people were just imitating  a birth defect ..   I'm trying to think of other examples like that...   but i can't.     There are things like neck stretching or feet binding ...   forcing a trait deemed desirable?   hmm birth defect emulation huh? .. that would explain how it happened all over the place pre contact .    But what's so great about a having a really long head?  What made it worthy of emulation ?¿?    Are birth defects ,sometimes,  genetic variables  which can be passed down?  ..  like the blue eye "mutation" ?

  I'm just curious as to If cranial deformation developed independently in places/continents with no contact... or if it was an idea passed along somehow.  It seems a much more unlikely idea and practice than hats or necklaces?

Swede, (bless his kind heart)  said this :
"In addition, there are numerous variations in the details of cranial structure. In some groups, there are cranial bones that do not even exist in other groups. Wormian and inca bones would be examples. "

Which is very interesting in itself , no?    

This looks like a mixture of 'defects'  and artificial deformation?  

A case of skulls from the Andean Paracas culture, as seen in the Museo Nacional de Arqueología Antropología e Historia del Perú in Lima, Peru.   220px-Head_Shaping.jpg

( adding this .. after reading crystal sages last post)
Painting by Paul Kane, showing a Chinookan child in the process of having its head flattened, and an adult after the process.220px-Kane_Caw_Wacham.jpg

Edited by lightly, 06 October 2010 - 01:17 AM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#32    trish1997

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 07:26 PM

View Postcrystal sage, on 03 October 2010 - 03:16 AM, said:

Just starting to watch this...  Klaus Dona : The Hidden History of the Human Race (March 2010) I have a feeling this supports some of my ideas of this world...

(only just started watching) but the show started with... "once apon a time.. a global civilization existed..."

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:rolleyes:  ^_^
It got me hooked..


Thanks... enjoyed the link... was interesting


#33    SlimJim22

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 10:01 PM

I found the page I was looking for. Maybe it is all genuine I have no way of telling but as I said previously, when looking up the author of the website I got media producer not archeologist, historian or anthropologist. Check out the whole of the site and judge whether you think the cups and pyramids (not skulls) are genuine or impressive fakes. I'd be curious to hear opinions because I was sad to write this off as an elaborate hoax.

In 1984 a large cache of over 300 artifacts was discovered by a small group of gold prospectors led by engineer Dr. Elias Sotomayor in a tunnel 300’ below ground in the jungle-covered mountains of La Maná, Ecuador. Accurate dating of the artifacts is as yet impossible by the latest methods, as the thermoluminescence technique would be unreliable due to years of exposure to sunlight since their discovery. The lithic technology and geometry presented in the artifacts denies placement in known cultural contexts from the region, suggesting that they may predate the known cultures from the region. The symbolism presented in the forms and in inlaid designs and script on the La Maná artifacts most closely relates to those of the Sanskrit culture known from southeast Asian contexts, and has toured Europe in the Unsolved Mysteries Exhibition. The script is consistent with the logographic form of Sanskrit, the mother language from which the Mayan and Egyptian glyphs have descended. The geometric analysis given herein suggests that the La Maná artifacts encode fractal information regarding the resonant properties of calcite mineral, informing the design function of the Orion pyramids of Giza, Egypt - the production of Electrum water.

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#34    Swede

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Posted 06 October 2010 - 11:33 PM

View PostSlimJim22, on 06 October 2010 - 10:01 PM, said:

I found the page I was looking for. Maybe it is all genuine I have no way of telling but as I said previously, when looking up the author of the website I got media producer not archeologist, historian or anthropologist. Check out the whole of the site and judge whether you think the cups and pyramids (not skulls) are genuine or impressive fakes. I'd be curious to hear opinions because I was sad to write this off as an elaborate hoax.

In 1984 a large cache of over 300 artifacts was discovered by a small group of gold prospectors led by engineer Dr. Elias Sotomayor in a tunnel 300’ below ground in the jungle-covered mountains of La Maná, Ecuador. Accurate dating of the artifacts is as yet impossible by the latest methods, as the thermoluminescence technique would be unreliable due to years of exposure to sunlight since their discovery. The lithic technology and geometry presented in the artifacts denies placement in known cultural contexts from the region, suggesting that they may predate the known cultures from the region. The symbolism presented in the forms and in inlaid designs and script on the La Maná artifacts most closely relates to those of the Sanskrit culture known from southeast Asian contexts, and has toured Europe in the Unsolved Mysteries Exhibition. The script is consistent with the logographic form of Sanskrit, the mother language from which the Mayan and Egyptian glyphs have descended. The geometric analysis given herein suggests that the La Maná artifacts encode fractal information regarding the resonant properties of calcite mineral, informing the design function of the Orion pyramids of Giza, Egypt - the production of Electrum water.

http://www.humanreso...e.org/mana.html

SJ - Yes, this one is more than a bit questionable. The provenience is sorely lacking, as is detailed information on the personages involved. In addition, the fact that the "collection" is in private hands and would not appear to have been studied leads one to suspect that a comprehensive analysis may not have been performed. One must also look at the over-all competence of the web-site. For example;

http://www.humanreso....org/index.html

Toyota acceleration problems linked to cosmic rays? Yoiks! Funny how they fixed that. Not to mention all the other garp.

Until such time as qualified research has been conducted, one may wish to be most leery of these claims.

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#35    TheSearcher

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 08:18 AM

View PostZ-v-S, on 05 October 2010 - 05:27 AM, said:

So basically you're saying, because he doesn't have a piece of paper stating he's a fully equiped archaeologist. Everything he says must be taken with a grain of salt. Do you realise how much of a fool you make yourself look Swede?

I agree his presentation is extremly simple & brief when it comes to his research & evidence, but seriously... It doesn't take a rocket scientist or in this case an archaeologist to realise our past may have been different to what weve been taught.

Considering Swede is a historian and Dona is not, yes everything Dona says must be taken with a grain of salt. Not seeing anything foolish there mate. Had you read any of the contributions Swede has already made to this Forum, you'd know this. Swede never takes people aback and never mocks anybody, he never attacks, just tries to educate. Still not seeing anything foolish.

Our past may indeed be different, then what we think it is, but research, proper methodology and evidence, are the corner stones of any discovery. And no you don't need to be a rocket scientist to realize this, you being the best example of this.  However Dona, just interprets facts that others have found before him, and claims he is correct, without even a hint of evidence. Sorry but that's just not good enough.

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#36    Abramelin

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 07:20 PM

View PostTheSearcher, on 08 October 2010 - 08:18 AM, said:

Considering Swede is a historian and Dona is not, yes everything Dona says must be taken with a grain of salt. Not seeing anything foolish there mate. Had you read any of the contributions Swede has already made to this Forum, you'd know this. Swede never takes people aback and never mocks anybody, he never attacks, just tries to educate. Still not seeing anything foolish.

Our past may indeed be different, then what we think it is, but research, proper methodology and evidence, are the corner stones of any discovery. And no you don't need to be a rocket scientist to realize this, you being the best example of this.  However Dona, just interprets facts that others have found before him, and claims he is correct, without even a hint of evidence. Sorry but that's just not good enough.

LOL, and I always thought Swede was a geologist.

Btw, I watched the video about this Dona guy, and god, it's like hearing a reincarnated Von Daniken.

Edited by Abramelin, 08 October 2010 - 07:20 PM.


#37    PersonFromPorlock

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Posted 08 October 2010 - 11:00 PM

I wonder if deforming skulls while people were growing might not have had some effect on their brain development, so that long-headed people were smarter, or braver, or had some other desirable mental trait. Probably not - it usually doesn't do to mess with Mother Nature - but does anyone here have any information one way or the other?

Edited by PersonFromPorlock, 08 October 2010 - 11:02 PM.


#38    crystal sage

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 01:58 AM

Pity everyone seems to dismiss Klaus just because we don't know if he has any  archaeological 'papers'to back up his  10 years plus  of consuming interest in out of place ancient artifacts.

As a curator of the Hapsburg Haus art collection, he would have had impeccable standing in the  art community.It would be almost like being a curator for the Queen of England's vast collection of arts and artifacts. He would have had quite a standing in society, been part of many of the European society's functions especially in the Art field. He would have been privy to many private collections. Many over the years would have asked his advice on various purchases or inherited lots. There would have been many Museum quality artifacts in these collections ( probably  some 'acquired' during  the various  wars to protect them from damage and pillage) Some too would have been passed down from other 'well to do' family members whose parents or grandparents would have been part of and/or financed ancient digs, way before many of these protective laws for ancient artifacts were established. I am sure there are hundreds of private collections of mysterious  ancient artifacts that have never seen the inside of a museum. The more magnificent these artifacts.. the more collectible they would have been.. the more lucrative the return for the scouts.. to those who could profit from these finds..
The more well known of this is the mania for Egyptian relics over the centuries.. the grave robbing that has been going on for centuries.. some would have been destroyed for the jewels.. the gold.. the silver, and some who appreciated the importance of these artifacts would have protected the integrity of what was found. Some of the details of where objects were found would have been kept secret... those of the 'well to do' who dabbled in finding treasures would have had meticulous records..


Many of the private collections would have been a source of pride. Detailed records of their provenance would have been kept.. and anything else historically of significance would have been added to it.  Some of these collections would have been updated.. reviewed.. had qualified scholars to verify, date.. Providence the objects.. help restore them .. or give advice on their storage. They would have spent much money finding the best people to add to their collections.


Again.. many of these collections would never have been seen by the average scholar.. or Museum..
Often Museums rely on donations.. or purchase items from collectors.. that is if they are willing to part with them..

Just think how many artifacts are purchased illegally.. from workers at digs.. or never make it to the designated place that funded the dig.

Well I think Klaus may have been privy to many unusual collections in his life.. perhaps met people from secret societies who would also have some rather interesting collections of artifacts.. . Many of the secret societies have at certain levels some interest in metaphysics , rituals  and knowledge that would have been passed down through the centuries.. knowledge that would have instigated the acquisition of certain ancient artifacts... (  B)   maybe lesser versions or contemporaries of the Holly Grail)..

I gather experiences such as this.. would have inspired Klaus to look at the metaphysical.. spiritual aspects of treasured artifacts..   He would have been privy to some of these sacred rituals and seen similarities .. to other artifacts discovered through out the world.. Enough to devote 10 or so years travelling the world to find other similar objects, to apply what he was learned , the mystical, shamanistic tools created for various rituals.. spells.

Much of this   ancient metaphysical/ shamanistic knowledge would have been lost  or kept to the select few..over the 2000 or so years of  organized religions..  where thoughts.. beliefs.. the mind  was controlled .  Most of the old ways were forgotten so much so that even now when we see what to us some attractive designs on various objects.. or cultural designs.. rather than purpose.

If we look at the few remaining well known symbols , designs we have in our repertoire such as Runes.. we realize that many of these designs.. scratchings  on various ancient objects may actually be metaphysical symbols..of spells.. of good , empowering prayers.. or protection.. or to balance some energy..  as well as recording the greatness of events or people.



For Klaus to have been able to show  or get access to these private collections , he must have been well respected, trusted.

Now, more than any other time.. "free thinking" is OK.. we can delve at the metaphysical.. spiritual aspects of the Universe outside religion without fear of condemnation.. torture.. the stake.. even though it appears that some of the scholars, graduates.. here are a bit slow on peering outside the box... are happy to condemn via ridicule rather than using these unique times to try and understand why they may feel there is more to some objects.. artifacts that meet the eye.

More and more spiritual, metaphysical information is becoming available.. making it easier to find  other plausible scientific explanations for various phenomena. So that out of place artifacts will no longer need to be ignored.. or condemned.

Again.. A brave person Klaus..  He readily admits he is putting his own interpretation of various objects... Opening the mind...inspiring other ideas.. more  private collections  or long lost dusty artifacts hidden away in boxes.. to come forward.


#39    crystal sage

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 03:50 AM

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Peru says Yale took some 40,000 of artifacts including pottery, jewelry and bones from the site in the Peruvian Andes.

"Either we come to an understanding regarding ... Machu Picchu, or we'll simply have to describe them as looters of treasures," Garcia said referring to Yale University.

The artifacts were sent out of Peru after a Yale alumnus, U.S. explorer Hiram Bingham, rediscovered Machu Picchu in 1911. The Andean country argues the objects were loaned to Yale for 18 months but never sent back.

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I noticed that when I walked the same route twice, I would see faces and figures that were not there before. This effect is produced by the progression of the sun, creating a constant flow of shadow and light.  When I would traverse back along the return path I'd invariably see new and different shapes.  In attempting to comprehend and fully understand the enigma that is Markawasi, one comes away with a lasting impression that the ancient history of this planet is quite possibly different from what our historians would like us to believe." - Peter Schneider

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Boston University professor of Geology and Geophysics, and author, Robert Schoch, PhD, initially ventured to Markawasi as the skeptic, but returned convinced that it is a very special, mystical, spiritual, and mind-altering place.  In his Introduction to Markawasi, Schoch writes, “It is an incredible site that raises many issues concerning lost civilizations, the past history of humanity, varying states of consciousness, and the nature of reality.
Imagine what artifacts were rerouted elsewhere to private collectors..



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enlongated skulls with no binding marks..


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Olmec 'Xi people' connection???

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The most extraordinary sport of the ancient world was the sacred ball game of Central America and the southern United States. It was first played in about 1000 B.C. by the Olmecs, who lived along the Bay of Mexico
, and by all the later great civilizations of the region. From the very start it was played by the most important members of society. The colossal Olmec heads—carved from basalt brought down from mountains fifty miles away and weighing up to forty-four tons—show Olmec rulers wearing head coverings. A plausible explanation is that these are the protective helmets (like those of modern football players) worn by the Olmecs when playing their sacred ball

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The other major candidate is the Olmec heartland, across the Isthmus of Tehuantepec along the Gulf Coast.[7] The Aztecs referred to their Postclassic contemporaries who then inhabited the region as the Olmeca (i.e. "rubber people") since the region was strongly identified with latex production.[8] The earliest-known rubber balls come from the sacrificial bog at El Manatí, an early Olmec-associated site located in the hinterland of the Coatzalcoalcos River drainage system. Villagers, and subsequently archaeologists, have recovered a dozen balls ranging in diameter from 10 to 22 cm from the freshwater spring there.

Five of these balls have been dated to the earliest-known occupational phase for the site, approximately 1700—1600 BCE.[9] These rubber balls were found with other ritual offerings buried at the site, indicating that even at this early date the ballgame had religious and ritual connotations.[10] A stone "yoke" of the type frequently associated with Mesoamerican ballcourts was also reported to have been found by local villagers at the site, leaving open the distinct possibility that these rubber balls were related to the ritual ballgame, and not simply an independent form of sacrificial offering.[11]



45,000 pieces stored in the Larco Archaeological Museum in Lima
... amazing...


magnetite artifact.. like those that could have been in the helmuts?

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#40    crystal sage

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 04:14 AM

I wonder what these are... early headlights for tunnel excavation?

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index of  photographed artifacts..
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Metals conservation Lab
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Some interesting legends..

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Where do whispered native Quichua (direct descendents of the Inca Peruvians) traditions say these Lost Inca hoards lie? In sealed caves to which mystic hieroglyphs, whose key is possessed only by one descendent of the Inca at a time in each generation … and in strange underground "subterranean", thousands of years old which may have been made by a mysterious and highly civilized vanished race of South America in a day when ancient Peruvians themselves, were a mere wandering tribe of barbarians, if not savages, roaming the corilleras and the high passes…"
On page 167 Wilkins relates the story from about 1844, when a Catholic priest was called to the deathbed of an old Quichua Indian. The dying man told a story about "the closing of the amazing tunnel-labyrinths, by the high priest of the sun temple of old Cuzco, and the magicians, under the eye of the Imperial consort of the late Emperor Atahualpha…
CUZCO TO LIMA
"One of the approaches to the great tunnels lay, and still lies, near old Cuzco, but it is masked beyond discovery. This hidden approach leads directly into an immense "subterranean," which runs from Cuzco to Lima, as the crow flies, a distance of 389 miles! Then turning southwards, the great tunnel extends into what until about 1868 was modern Bolivia, about 900 miles!



In case you are wondering why I am exploring various sites... I recall seeing the  same or similar stone helmuts  Klaus published many years ago in old National Geographic magazines... still searching...


There is magic.. mystery attached to all these legends and enough interesting artifacts to put the history of these in another box.. If there is magic and mystery attached to these.. then they were created in magic and mystery.. spiritual, metaphysical, shaministic ways.. so I feel  these should respectfully  be approached in these ways.
You have to consider the psycho social environments of the times to understand how ,why, what , where, and to  consciously work  within their frame of reference to  respect and appreciate what we are exploring.It may help us uncover more ancient treasures. Understand respect more about our ancestors.. even learn things to help us now,  
Perhaps it may help us evolve our scientific methods of observation and deduction to expand the consciousness aspects of all those many things we can't measure in our present scientific manner. Not to ruthlessly discard artifacts because we don't know in what context they belong.




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Ear plug ornaments and pendants have been an element of adornment and personal decoration, used recurrently by ancient people, as a symbol of superiority, hierarchy or divinity
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It appears that many of the old carvings and statues, artifacts often display personages with really obvious earplugs... addornments..

I wonder what the fascination with these were? They look very much like some of those old earphones.. headphones...

Did they have something like the two tins connected with string for communication in those days.. or something more elaborate?
Was it something to do with hearing.. hearing aids? or to hear a greater range of vibrations/sounds using different metals.. stones.. shapes?
Life seemed to be more mystical to them ,shamanistic rituals.. etc..... so I assume they would be ready to explore more ways to connect to the spiritual planes...

Note how in throughout history they explored the use of different shapes..
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Edited by crystal sage, 09 October 2010 - 04:31 AM.


#41    crystal sage

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 05:59 AM

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Interesting use for coneheadedness... bands across the head for carrying heavy objects..


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The INAH revealed in late 2009, that the country there were ten archaeological discoveries, one of them was verified in Michoacan. In addition, in 2010, would have 21 million pesos in the maintenance of 20 archaeological sites, but no support for new research, only the rehabilitation of areas to increase the number of visitors.
The findings revolve around funerary buildings, in Tlatelolco, vestiges of the culture puuc architecture at Uxmal, a building at Chichen Itza, a culture Opata burial in Sonora Teotihuacan murals at the archaeological site of El Rosario, Queretaro, skulls and guns in the state of Yucatan cenotes, human remains of the Huasteca culture in the archaeological zone of Tamtok, San Luis Potosi, and new faucets that could unlock key dates in the Mayan culture, Chichen Itza . In Michoacán, there was an outdoor yácata Ario de Rosales.
However, other findings in Michoacán are the Purépecha ceremonial center, built on the shores of Lake Patzcuaro in Apúpato Island, a yácata on the outskirts of Morelia and remnants of pre-Hispanic structures in the Cerro del Otero, Jiquilpan .
And like elsewhere, the staff of INAH silent. Recently, archaeological validated only in the municipality of Venustiano Carranza in Cumuatillo-where would Nahuatl and Purépecha cultures, "and in Lazaro Cardenas, since it includes attempts to rescue work on the coast of Michoacan.
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In monitoring for this story, it emerged that at least ten thousand Hispanic pieces have been stolen in Mexico in the last 10 years (2000-2010). They state that this figure, a thousand pieces of art are Catholic churches and that 80% is sacred art.
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Pretty amazing..
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Reminds me of the old heavy  ancient Japanese armour ..

Further to the claims that the ancients here were playing ball games with the Africans..using ? those rubber balls?
Ancient sports arenas.. ball courts..

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There are also some smaller structures here, but not much more has been excavated in this group. From here you travel down the remnants of a sacbe to the other groups. Coba can also be judged as an important and long-inhabited city by the fact that 40-50 of these roads exist, connecting the city to other places. As you pass along these, you'll see many mounds going off into the jungle.

Chumuc Mul Group: Ball Court
The Chumuc Mul group is mainly unrestored, but contains a remarkable second ball court that is significantly larger than that shown above
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Las Pinturas Group
The Group of the Paintings consists of the Temple of the Paintings and surrounding structures. It is not labelled as a group on either of the maps shown above, but appears as the group of buildings on the main sacbe above those marked Groupo Macanxoc. There are also other structures here, but not many that have been excavated. Though you can't ascend this temple, the name is taken from remnants of murals that exist at the top (which is sheltered by a thatched structure). Its ceremonial importance is also indicated by the numerous stelae that exist in front of the temple, and the columns in the area.
some remnants of ancient stuccowork on these temples found at these new diggs..
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Nohoc Mul
Close-up of the descending god on the temple..

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A very large stele beside Nohoc Mul - the light was not good enough to truly capture the relief left in it


An accompanying drawing showing the relief outlines on the stele more clearly
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:yes:  :tu:

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Macanxoc Group
Finally, there is the Macanxoc group, which exists fairly far away from all the others. The site maps illustrate many buildings here, but at the time of this writing no work has yet been done to uncover them. The only obvious things to see here other than the same mounds that dot the rest of the jungle are a collection of Stele - leave this area for last, since the other areas have far more to see.



Ek'Balam

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It may be difficult to even find an organized tour here, but it is well worth the trouble, because there's something to see here that you'll find nowhere else: it has the finest stucco work in the Yucatan (unlike Chichen Itza, these buildings were decorated in sculpted stucco rather than stone carvings), and is pretty much the only place you can get an idea of just how elaborate the Mayan ruins you see today used to be. Although the city was known in the 1800s, serious excavations only began here in 1987, and much remains to be uncovered.



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Tomb of Ukit Kan Le'k Tok'

Approximately 2/3 of the way up the Acropolis lies the tomb of Ukit Kan Le'k Tok', the best preserved stuccowork in the Yucatan. It is an absolute miracle that this remains so well preserved - it looks like it could have been completed yesterday. This is because the temple area was completely covered over with rubble shortly after its completion. After seeing this, you have a hint of how beautiful and elaborate the structures you see in places like Ek'Balam and Tulum once were when all their stuccowork was intact. A panorama of the plasterwork is included below, but to really see the effect of something this large, two videos do a better job. There is also a level above this tomb, showing a tapered capstone with masks of Chac (similar to those of Chichen Itza, but again in stuccowork), which is not open to the public.



#42    Z-v-S

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 07:24 AM

View PostTheSearcher, on 08 October 2010 - 08:18 AM, said:

Considering Swede is a historian and Dona is not, yes everything Dona says must be taken with a grain of salt. Not seeing anything foolish there mate. Had you read any of the contributions Swede has already made to this Forum, you'd know this. Swede never takes people aback and never mocks anybody, he never attacks, just tries to educate. Still not seeing anything foolish.

Our past may indeed be different, then what we think it is, but research, proper methodology and evidence, are the corner stones of any discovery. And no you don't need to be a rocket scientist to realize this, you being the best example of this.  However Dona, just interprets facts that others have found before him, and claims he is correct, without even a hint of evidence. Sorry but that's just not good enough.

Oh my sincere apologies!

I forgot a historian is the exact same thing as an archaeologist... Jeez, and i would of thought dedicating your life to this site you'd learn something by now.

Pfft pfft.  :tu:

Edited by Z-v-S, 09 October 2010 - 07:36 AM.


#43    mrMcMurphy

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 08:51 PM

This is so interesting!
Im just fascinated with this at the moment, and Ive been watching a ton of documentaries about similar things.
Strongly recommend one called "Ancient Aliens" and of course the book "Chariots of The Gods".

Edited by mrMcMurphy, 09 October 2010 - 08:52 PM.

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#44    Agent. Mulder

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 09:35 PM

View PostmrMcMurphy, on 09 October 2010 - 08:51 PM, said:

This is so interesting!
Im just fascinated with this at the moment, and Ive been watching a ton of documentaries about similar things.
Strongly recommend one called "Ancient Aliens" and of course the book "Chariots of The Gods".

Ya really dont wanna recomment anything "Daniken" anymore.

the truth is out there....

#45    cormac mac airt

cormac mac airt

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Posted 09 October 2010 - 11:19 PM

Quote

Strongly recommend one called "Ancient Aliens" and of course the book "Chariots of The Gods".

I recommend both as well. They're equally useful for starting fires in a fireplace or burn barrel.  :yes:

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus




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