123 replies to this topic

[Abramelin]

ShadowSot, on 13 October 2010 - 08:59 PM, said:

I have to say, scientific discoveries have revealed to me a wonderful world, in some ways more amazing than the fantasies I let myself believe when I was younger.
Mostly, to me, was how scientists have been able to reveal the faces of our ancestors, and little scraps about their lives, bits of who they were.

Shadowsot, I was once one of 'those' dreamers, believing anything that opposed science.

And you are damn right: science shows us wonders no Tolkien could ever have dreamt up.

[Swede]

crystal sage, on 13 October 2010 - 03:30 PM, said:

Yes... He seemed to get a lot of flack simply because he wasn't a degreed expert in the field... LOL.. I know many who have University degrees in history.. archaeology.. and so forth.. but do not have the passion some of these people show... some get degrees in various fields.. like psychology and so forth.. and only learn all their notes parrot fashion.. study past study notes to learn the basics of what they have to know just to pass..

Most wouldn't even care to go into the field that they have studied for... For many these days getting degrees.. Doctorates... are just rights of passage.. the minimum any doting parent will let them get away with before they can strike out on their own and do what they will with their lives... and that is mainly get an income sufficient to provide all their needs.. and desires.. pay for a few good holidays or car.. or save for a house... Again... not many have the true passion to do much with these  precious keys to the doors of acceptance... peer approval. Yet there are others who also have to make a living and have 10 times the passion these fields.. and because they are not indoctrinated in the accepted ground work.. are there fore not blinkered to what they should be seeing.. expecting.. these, who have passion in these historical fields are able to see  things with fresher eyes.. come to the table from differing doors.. peer over different fences of possibilities that those who have been indoctrinated with acedemic blinkers may not even think of exploring.

I have been hearing of out of place finds for decades.. ( .. lots of it from the trusty National Geographic magazines)  Much of this.. as you know will be put aside or disgarded... and then forgotten..  future  validating discoveries or possible links.. new directions will then be overlooked... Others later who find some matching or sympathetic pieces of unusual artifacts will also not be able to place them or validate them as all these precious validating pieces will either have been long discarded.. or lost in some dusty attic.. or been dismissed as possible fakes... Some times in fear or fits of jealousy by others in the field who would have their work questioned or superceded. Knowing how hard it is to get some new information out there.. the  many months or years of rigmarol that one has to go through  with peers and others in the field... to have anything published...the politics some truly significant discovery can have in changing all perceptions.. one can understand the hesitancy of including some really contraversial new evidence.. artifacts...

We know how often in scientific fields.. especially pharmacology... how experiments are adjusted to meet the sponsor's expectations.. how unsupporting data.. experiments, are diplomatically discarded or minimized to creat the targeted outcome..


So too I believe it is in our acceptance of what went on in the past.. Much of our knowledge or the past has been reasigned to support the political religious environment of the time... Read the history of different lands.. Not the Western version.. and you'll find they differ.. even the history in the past hundred years has been rewritten  to make each country seem more politically correct.. for better PR..

Over the hundreds.. thousands of years.. new rulers of the lands often reworked some of the history.. burned.. altered records.. destroyed artifacts.. architecture.. art..people...

So what is really true?

So.. Klaus Dona , as I said.. may not have all the qualifications.. but with many of the positions he did have a keen eye for quality.. good art.. high quality artifacts would have been learned on the job.. for the job.

He must have had a very good reputation to hold these exhibitions.. especially in Vienna.. where security is tight.. and reputations are important.
He would have learned to hold his own in all circles of the art world across many nations. Been trusted and passed all security tests to be able to handle all these expensive unique pieces of art.. and museam quality items.

As he said.. his passion for ancient history has been inspired.. and going strong  for well over ten year.. Ten years plus being surrounded by the highest quality of pieces.. privy to inumerable private collections.


I believe that in many cases the best Museum quality artifacts.. relics .. never make it to museums.. as many private collectors will pay top dollar for them.

To dismiss rare glimpses of  private collections as fraudulent.. possible fakes just because academia.. scientists.. historians hadn't fully been able to play with them... and lord over their place in history. Is  this really wise..


Again.. Klaus Dona does not make any claims to be an expert.. but has often mentioned that he  had the connections to seek  the  top experts help on any questions he has of various objects.. to help with the validation and research of these artifacts.. .. especially those from private collections.
You can imagine how these wealthy private collectors would pay well to have top often  poorly paid experts from academia to quietly go to their house and validate.. their aquired objects.. as they too wouldn't want to be fools paying huge sums of money for worthless artifacts.. they may seek help restore various objects.. or to write validating research papers on various objects.. give advice on how to best display their aquired objects.

CS - You have already acknowledged the rather sad state of your early education. For this, you do have my sympathy. However, that situation should not be taken as an automatic license to not pursue further, more worthwhile studies. Many on these pages have openly expressed their various (and highly commendable!) engagement in such.

To address some of the more general points presented;

Your perception of those who have pursued advanced degrees would apparently be limited to a rather narrow range of experience, accompanied by your own interpretation of the situations. If you doubt that "passion" does not exist amongst degreed archaeologists, I would recommend that you subscribe to some of the professional journals or attend a conference in your area. The discourse can become quite heated and debates can carry on for years.

Re. - Publication. Again, your own perceptions of the workings of scientific publication may be hindering your evaluation. Publication can take time, for a number of reasons. The extensive analysis/research time that precedes the presentation of significant new information is a part of the scientific process. One does not (at least wisely) wish to present a position that can not be thoroughly supported. This would be one of the major flaws in the "works" of Dona et. al.

Re. - Private collections. This gets into a most questionable area. The illicit trade in stolen artifacts is a highly lucrative and controversial subject. You may wish to consult such references as;

Richman, Jennifer and Marion P. Forsyth
2004 "Legal Perspectives on Cultural Resources"

Many private collectors do not necessarily invite qualified analysis, as it may reveal their illicit activities. But, to move beyond that point. One of the primary tenants in archaeology is context. Once an artifact has been surreptitiously "removed"/"isolated" from its context, the overwhelming amount of data that can be gleaned from that artifact is lost. Archaeology is not a treasure hunt. And displaying "neat stuff" in an unprovenienced context does not constitute "research". Nor does it constitute an accurate reflection of our current understandings of human and cultural change.

To more succinctly address some of the material that Dona puts forth;

Mu - A simple one here - http://en.wikipedia....lost_continent)

Crystal skulls - http://www.archaeolo...5/etc/indy.html

Ancient America magazine/ Wayne May - This is a terminally poor publication put out by an individual (May) whose vested interest is support of the Mormon religion;

http://www.fairlds.org/pubs/QArch.pdf

Even his own church does not support him;

http://www.bmaf.org/node/277

The shoe prints/hammer are quite well addressed here;

http://paleo.cc/paluxy.htm

Other aspects such as DNA, infant cranial binding, Yonaguni, flouresence, etc., etc. have already been addressed. One could go on and on.

Am quite confident that you perceive the bottom line. This is yet another in a long line of attempts to construct an unsupported/artificial "history" for the sake of the financial benefit of the "inventor" of these schemes.

.

[crystal sage]

cormac mac airt, on 13 October 2010 - 06:17 PM, said:

While you never specified Australia, making a broad sweeping statement instead, neither Australia nor any part thereof speaks for the level of education from anywhere else on the globe, particularly in the 60's and 70's timeframe. I also went to school in the 60's and 70's: Germany twice (Darmstadt and Kaiserslautern), Kansas, West Virginia, Indiana, Kentucky, Tennessee and 2 locations in Texas. None of these schools were that backwards in education, nor should it be assumed they were anything more than typical. The point being that your education as regards ancient history should not be seen as typical of anyone elses.

cormac

Hey... I am far from saying I agree with what and how we were taught back in the "60's and 70's "... quite the opposite.. I was saying that that it how education system was boxed in within the religious parameters. That , according to the schools I went to was "How things were".. if you gave any other answers.. they were marked wrong.. spoke out in class about it.. and it was a choice of straps or canes...


Much of history , as with science has somewhat matured since then.. which is a good thing.. but as my kids and some others have pointed out.. they are sometimes using 20_  30 year old school books... in some cases... not the 'revised editions'.
but on the whole now I am surprised how much more knowledge is packed in to each year these days as far as education is concerned.

What we learned in High School and entry level.. in the old days.. is what kids are required to know in primary school.

Do some of the teachers go to conferences.. seminars .. like doctors  and others in various sciences.. to be upgraded in  the latest discoveries in their respective fields?


.. Oh.. don't know if it is just bad in other countries.. but some of the documentaries we see about the education systems in  America and so forth seems pretty sad...  that there are some really hefty debates going on here..
My link

My link

I was using the comparasin of what we were taught as children.. within the scholastic parameters of the times.. to how things have changed now...

We dare to widen the gaps in the history of man... We are still hesitant to place any civilization past the 7 to 9 thousand year mark  for fear of being ridiculed by peers until recently when the Gobekli Tepi digs came up proving that civilizations could be placed back to 12,000 years plus.

I am surprised that this ground breaking ( as far as crediting humanity as a lot smarter than they thought during what they consider as being the Neanderthol ages) dig has halted
My link

Further exploration of this site could change all we know or have assumed of the history of mankind.. seems to have been untouched.. untampered with for over 8 to 10,000 years.. Imagine what we could find here.
This  discovery of this site has been around since 1994... Only 5% of this site has been explored.. It is a treasure trove of awesome artistic constructive talent...

Yet why have things stopped..
My brother was only there a couple of weeks ago and said that apart from what has been shown to the world of this amazing site.. little more has been done here.. No funding???
Why? I bet if they took world wide fund raising for this dig..hired the top historians.. archaeologists .. geologists.. using a reality type archeology show     like Hawass' show 'Chasing Mummies'
My link
to help fund this.. why not?


I'd be an avid viewer...

[crystal sage]

Abramelin, on 13 October 2010 - 06:42 PM, said:

Karnak, Brittany is 4000 BC or more.

That's 6000 years old to my reckoniong.

The megalyths in Malta are 5000 years old.


Is it because you copy and post, but never actually read all that's written there??

That is what I think you do, and yoy are not ther only one here.

Skip past what doesn't appeal to you and copy and post what does.

If you read my little post properly.. I was complaining about the old education system..They beat the historical parameters into you in those times that reflected the religious teachings of the time... Just an example of my disfunctional education.

Not that I hold with these views... I really think we go back much older than this.. that maybe some time in the future we may find evidence of civilizations that go back 100's of thousands of years...
I have seen your posts about this, so I wonder why you conveniently forget about it.
See it is amazing how things .. views can be twisted here...  

I cut an paste.. so that I don't accidently twist the author's worlds.. like you seem to have done in this example.. '
Maybe I just wasn't being very clear with how I described my early education....

[cormac mac airt]

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...but some of the documentaries we see about the education systems in America and so forth seems pretty sad...

Like anywhere else, there are good places and there are bad places. A blanket statement of the American educational system, one way or the other, is being less than honest. And I've NEVER seen a school system here using textbooks that were decades outdated. No even in southern West Virginia, which in the past has been associated with the stereo-typical "uneducated hillbilly".

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We are still hesitant to place any civilization past the 7 to 9 thousand year mark for fear of being ridiculed by peers until recently when the Gobekli Tepi digs came up proving that civilizations could be placed back to 12,000 years plus.

One of the problems with that is that many like to throw the term 'civilization' at anything that happens to be found. One of the criteria, and an important one, for something being called a civilization is formalized writing. Sumer had it, Egypt followed closely behind. Gobekli Tepe in this regard does NOT qualify as a civilization as there is no evidence of said writing. There isn't even any evidence for permanent settlements in or around Gobekli Tepe. Science is hesitant, at least in part, because of this lack of qualifications. We also, AFAIK, can't even attribute a specific culture to it yet.

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Further exploration of this site could change all we know or have assumed of the history of mankind..

That's a bit presumptive, IMO. While it will add greatly to what we currently know, it will not have the effect of changing "all we know" as you are implying. It is, after all, only one of possibly countless other sites that have existed in the past.

Reality shows and archaeology are a bad combination, IMO. The one thing professional archaeologists and others DON'T NEED is some company with a filming crew set up in and around an archaeological dig. The logistics themselves, would be a potential disaster in the making.

cormac

[TheSearcher]

A few scientists, such as Carl Sagan, have written about Von Däniken's paleocontact and extraterrestrial visitation claims. Although Sagan did not rule out the possibility of visitation, he insisted that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", which Van Däniken fails to provide.

Von Däniken has also knowingly put forward fraudulent evidence to advance his hypotheses, such as photographs of pottery "depicting UFOs". Allegedly from an archaeological dig dating back to the biblical era. The PBS television series Nova determined that this was a fraud, and even located the potter who made them. When confronted with this evidence, von Däniken argued that the deception was justified because some people would only believe his theories if they saw actual proof.(Horizon, BBC documentary, The Case of the Ancient Astronauts, first aired 3/8/78.)

In The Gold of the Gods Von Daniken claimed to have been guided through artificial tunnels under Ecuador containing a library with metal tablets. The man who he claimed showed him these alleged tunnels, Juan Moricz, told Der Spiegel (German magazine) that all of Von Daniken's descriptions came from a long conversation and that the photos in the book had been modified. Von Däniken eventually told Playboy in an interview, that although he had seen the library and other places he'd described, he had also fabricated some of the events to add interest to his book. (Playboy magazine, Volume 21 Number 8, 1974)

The man admits having invented and fabricated evidence used in his claims, he's a self admitted fraud. Why on earth should I take anything of what he says seriously at all? Or anybody who subscribes to his claims for that matter.

There's a nice article here, that analyzes Von Däniken's writings and seems to think he plagiarizes quite a bit from Lovecraft and the Cthulhu mythos the latter created. Seems he didn't even use his own ideas!

All this should tell you something about who we are dealing with.

[Hanslune]

Lets not forget Catalhoyuk nor the Jomon people and their advanced pottery who were semi-sedentary.

There are a number of 'pre-civilization' sites prior to '5,000'BCE and more will be coming up. Each year more areas undergo field surveys and other methods of testing.

Yep the best story I've yet seen about our early advance to civilization comes from the scientist, not fringe researchers who often contradict each other. The most interesting information comes from genetic research and from the boring old fossil pollen people who can determine remarkable reconstructions of neolithic and other eras environments.

[crystal sage]

TheSearcher, on 14 October 2010 - 06:45 AM, said:

A few scientists, such as Carl Sagan, have written about Von Däniken's paleocontact and extraterrestrial visitation claims. Although Sagan did not rule out the possibility of visitation, he insisted that "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence", which Van Däniken fails to provide.

Von Däniken has also knowingly put forward fraudulent evidence to advance his hypotheses, such as photographs of pottery "depicting UFOs". Allegedly from an archaeological dig dating back to the biblical era. The PBS television series Nova determined that this was a fraud, and even located the potter who made them. When confronted with this evidence, von Däniken argued that the deception was justified because some people would only believe his theories if they saw actual proof.(Horizon, BBC documentary, The Case of the Ancient Astronauts, first aired 3/8/78.)

In The Gold of the Gods Von Daniken claimed to have been guided through artificial tunnels under Ecuador containing a library with metal tablets. The man who he claimed showed him these alleged tunnels, Juan Moricz, told Der Spiegel (German magazine) that all of Von Daniken's descriptions came from a long conversation and that the photos in the book had been modified. Von Däniken eventually told Playboy in an interview, that although he had seen the library and other places he'd described, he had also fabricated some of the events to add interest to his book. (Playboy magazine, Volume 21 Number 8, 1974)

The man admits having invented and fabricated evidence used in his claims, he's a self admitted fraud. Why on earth should I take anything of what he says seriously at all? Or anybody who subscribes to his claims for that matter.

There's a nice article here, that analyzes Von Däniken's writings and seems to think he plagiarizes quite a bit from Lovecraft and the Cthulhu mythos the latter created. Seems he didn't even use his own ideas!

All this should tell you something about who we are dealing with.

But Von Daniken opened our minds to the idea of ET's visiting and influencing mankind..and was the main world wide influence in accepting that there is a strong possibility that the mystical historical references to 'gods' angels.. .. star people could very well be beings from other worlds.

It is since his bold claims.. that  many minds have done a complete turn around on the many possibilities of what could have influenced history.. ( his ideas fit in very well with all the biblical stories..)..Even the Vatican is saying it is quite a possibility now.. that we may very well  have 'brothers and sisters' in other worlds.

Now that possibility has been opened.. more  and more energy is being spent on the idea of doing similar service to other worlds..seeding new life to other planets..  colonizing other worlds.. with major pushes towards this being made in the next few decades...
I think his main purpose in life was to fascilitate the awakening of mankind.. in that "we are not alone".

[crystal sage]

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cormac mac airt, on 14 October 2010 - 06:00 AM, said:

Like anywhere else, there are good places and there are bad places. A blanket statement of the American educational system, one way or the other, is being less than honest. And I've NEVER seen a school system here using textbooks that were decades outdated. No even in southern West Virginia, which in the past has been associated with the stereo-typical "uneducated hillbilly".



One of the problems with that is that many like to throw the term 'civilization' at anything that happens to be found. One of the criteria, and an important one, for something being called a civilization is formalized writing. Sumer had it, Egypt followed closely behind. Gobekli Tepe in this regard does NOT qualify as a civilization as there is no evidence of said writing. There isn't even any evidence for permanent settlements in or around Gobekli Tepe. Science is hesitant, at least in part, because of this lack of qualifications. We also, AFAIK, can't even attribute a specific culture to it yet.



That's a bit presumptive, IMO. While it will add greatly to what we currently know, it will not have the effect of changing "all we know" as you are implying. It is, after all, only one of possibly countless other sites that have existed in the past.

Reality shows and archaeology are a bad combination, IMO. The one thing professional archaeologists and others DON'T NEED is some company with a filming crew set up in and around an archaeological dig. The logistics themselves, would be a potential disaster in the making.

cormac

  If it is a way to help finance digs.. research... then maybe it is..

The reality show hasn't slowed down Hawass...

My link

It actually increased support...

Why not have something like that for Gobleki ?
My link

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Last year, for instance, French archaeologists working at Djade al-Mughara in northern Syria uncovered the oldest mural ever found. "Two square metres of geometric shapes, in red, black and white - like a Paul Klee painting", said Eric Coqueugniot, of the University of Lyon, who is leading the excavation.
My link
Coqueugniot describes Schmidt's hypothesis that Gobekli Tepe was a meeting point for rituals as "tempting", given its spectacular position. But surveys of the region were still in their infancy. "Tomorrow, somebody might find somewhere even more dramatic."

Vecihi Ozkaya, the director of a dig at Kortiktepe, 120 miles east of Urfa, doubts the thousands of stone pots he has found since 2001 in hundreds of 11,500-year-old graves quite qualify as that. But his excitement fills his austere office at Dicle University in Diyarbakir.
My link
"Look at this", he said, pointing at a photo of an exquisitely carved sculpture showing an animal, half-human, half-lion. "It's a sphinx, thousands of years before Egypt. South-eastern Turkey, northern Syria - this region saw the wedding night of our civilisation."

or some of those newly discovered South American digs.. that seem to be unprotected and largely ignored for lack of finance.


This is a rather awesome shot of  Gobleki..

My link

To say some random  hunters and gatherers built that 12,000 years ago.. groups that knew nothing about agriculture.. community living..weren't eligible to be  classified as belonging to a civilization... because there was no surviving evidence of written communication...  how many books will survive  a good 10 to 12 thousand years.. especially if they were dug over with tons of earth...

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Archaeologist Klaus Schmidt downplays extravagant spiritual interpretations of Göbekli Tepe, such as the idea, made popular in the press, that the site is the inspiration for the Biblical Garden of Eden. But he does agree that it was a sanctuary of profound significance in the Neolithic world. He sees it as a key site in understanding the transition from hunting and gathering to agriculture, and from tribal to regional religion.

Schmidt and his colleagues estimate that at least 500 people were required to hew the 10- to 50-ton stone pillars from local quarries, move them from as far as a quarter-mile away, and erect them. How did Stone Age people achieve the level of organization necessary to do this? Hauptmann speculates that an elite class of religious leaders supervised the work and later controlled the rituals that took place at the site. If so, this would be the oldest known evidence for a priestly caste--much earlier than when social distinctions became evident at other Near Eastern sites

The mere organization of this required some form of settlement.. note taking..planing..  written communication...


Like the city of

My link

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this apparent city was thriving at least 4000 B. C. - which is 6,000 years ago and functioning independently from Sumer..
The huge city is spread over 750 acres and is believed to have been home to up to 25,000 people. The archeologists found five large stone ovens large enough to feed huge numbers of people. This seems to indicate that this was a community with industries. These may have included bakeries and breweries. Also, astonishing is the fact that the living quarters were double walled with a 2-inch gap between the two walls to encourage airflow. This seems to be a primitive form of air conditioning since the summer temperatures in that region could reach 40C and above. Discoveries include stone gods, jewelry, porcelain figurines of lions, leopards, bears and horses, together with porcelain-like pottery, 7,000 beads, more than a hundred clay seals with hieroglyphics used to record trade transactions, and a large protective city wall.

Maybe once the uncover more of the Gobleki site they may find similar evidence of civilization. Such skills as found in the Gobleki area needs to be learned.. and requires time to  support teach and learn these skills.. It couldn't all have been done with just a few men.

Edited by crystal sage, 14 October 2010 - 03:37 PM.

[crystal sage]

My link

The more recent films of Gobleki makes the digs look more like towns than mere worshiping ritual sites as were first suggested...
My link


I wouldn't be surprised if they  find a hoard of tablets around there soon... similar to the stash at Ebla...

[cormac mac airt]

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The reality show hasn't slowed down Hawass...

It also hasn't done Egyptology any favors, either, and that's what matters.

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To say some random hunters and gatherers built that 12,000 years ago.. groups that knew nothing about agriculture.. community living..weren't eligible to be classified as belonging to a civilization... because there was no surviving evidence of written communication... how many books will survive a good 10 to 12 thousand years.. especially if they were dug over with tons of earth...

And again, there is also no evidence of permanent habitation nor domestication of agricultural produce, no widescale farming nor animal husbandry in or near Gobekli Tepe that would lend credence to a civilization. You're once again jumping on the bandwagon of "it must have been a civilization". Why? Cultures were fully capable of doing great things while not quite making it to the 'civilization' level.

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The mere organization of this required some form of settlement.. note taking..planing.. written communication...

Not really, IMO. All it requires is an idea and a means to implement it.

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It couldn't all have been done with just a few men.

AFAIK, no one said it was.

cormac

[Hanslune]

Our present definition of civilization is a designation created to allow classification. It has no meaning beyond that. When a social organization doesn't quite make it to the full definition  (and there are several competing ones I do believe) it is called a pre-civilization, proto-civilization, etc

There has been some concern and discussion on whether we should amend the the parameters of civilization which were set in the late 19th century (I do believe)

[TheSearcher]

crystal sage, on 14 October 2010 - 02:47 PM, said:

But Von Daniken opened our minds to the idea of ET's visiting and influencing mankind..and was the main world wide influence in accepting that there is a strong possibility that the mystical historical references to 'gods' angels.. .. star people could very well be beings from other worlds.

It is since his bold claims.. that  many minds have done a complete turn around on the many possibilities of what could have influenced history.. ( his ideas fit in very well with all the biblical stories..)..Even the Vatican is saying it is quite a possibility now.. that we may very well  have 'brothers and sisters' in other worlds.

Now that possibility has been opened.. more  and more energy is being spent on the idea of doing similar service to other worlds..seeding new life to other planets..  colonizing other worlds.. with major pushes towards this being made in the next few decades...
I think his main purpose in life was to fascilitate the awakening of mankind.. in that "we are not alone".

So it does not disturb you one bit that he is a liar and fraud? Same as the Vatican, btw? His main purpose in life was to defraud people of their hard earned cash. He's a con man that found the perfect angle, making it look legit.

Sorry CS, but if you still believe him or Sitchin, when they are self admitted liars and proven wrong, you are naive beyond redemption.

[Abramelin]

crystal sage, on 14 October 2010 - 04:34 PM, said:

My link

The more recent films of Gobleki makes the digs look more like towns than mere worshiping ritual sites as were first suggested...
My link


I wouldn't be surprised if they  find a hoard of tablets around there soon... similar to the stash at Ebla...

I watched the videos, and it's the same as was shown before.

The reason it looks like towns is because of how they organize the dig.

Maybe the real houses of any towns were made of dried mud, and are now eroded to a point they are not distinguishable from the rest of the soil.

[crystal sage]

My brother was there at Gobleki Tepi only a couple of weeks ago.. said that they have only uncovered a small portion of the digs.. that it appears to be a matter of funding.. but will question him further the next time I see him.
He was also at Cappadocia and visited some of the underground cities.. checked out many of those ancient places.. said they were amazing..
My link
Wasn't too impressed with the church/cave of Peter..

He was more impressed with the amazing petrol stations they had there.. Said they were almost like an airport with what it had to offer.. as well as amazingly good and reasonably priced food.
He loved it there.. spent around 2 month touring many of the ancient sites around Turkey..He loved Antioch , said that the Museum there had the most amazing  displays of ancient mosaics.. said there were rooms and floors full of them  .
My link