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false-flag operation


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#61    illuminated

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 07:38 PM

View PostTK0001, on 29 October 2010 - 06:46 PM, said:

In other words, the PNAC was warning us that we were vulnerable to attack, that we needed to spend more on defense, and that the whole process of improving our defenses would take a long time, unless our vulnerability was exposed (aka New Pearl Harbor).

But the PNAC had no plans to beef up defense to somehow defend against terrorists flying passenger planes into buildings, because no one saw that coming. They wanted America's military to improve to guard against a new Pearl Harbor, (another nation's military attacking ours).


if it was terrorists  planes that took down the buldings why are there explosive residue and why did the building collapse  so fast?
and why did bulding 7 collapse when  no plane hit it at all?

and why did they claim the black boxes where never recovered when all 4 of them were?

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#62    TK0001

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 08:04 PM

View Postilluminated, on 29 October 2010 - 07:38 PM, said:

if it was terrorists  planes that took down the buldings why are there explosive residue and why did the building collapse  so fast?
and why did bulding 7 collapse when  no plane hit it at all?

and why did they claim the black boxes where never recovered when all 4 of them were?

You keep trying to bait me into a tangent, when all these subjects have been discussed ad nauseum. Please feel free to back up any of these ridiculous claims with actual proof, and we'll talk.

I'd like to see evidence of "explosive residue" (where, you don't say, but I'll assume at Ground Zero).

They fell "so fast" because of gravity.

Building 7 sustained a 20 story gash in it's south side due to the collapsing north tower. That, combined with widespread fires which spread for hours with no firefighting effort whatsoever, led to the building's eventual failure.

And from what I recall, two black boxes were recovered, and two were not. Incidentally, how does the recovery/non-recovery of black boxes indicate complicity? What do you think is on/in a black box?

Edited by TK0001, 29 October 2010 - 08:06 PM.


#63    Sakari

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 08:46 PM

View Postilluminated, on 18 October 2010 - 05:10 PM, said:

i think its obvious that 9/11 wasnt a terrorist attack and that it was more for the land and  the riches that land has i.e. the oil.


First , great yet another 9/11 thread......

Second , why are gas prices still so high?...Why are we still in a recession ....

third , why does Iraq and Afghanistan still make money on that oil?


And , finally.......This entire 9/11 conspiracy crud........

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Edited by Sakari, 29 October 2010 - 08:49 PM.

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#64    regeneratia

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 08:50 PM

It is time to stop funding the CIA and to totally dismantle them. They are a harm to national security.


View Postilluminated, on 18 October 2010 - 05:10 PM, said:

first of all this will show how deceitful the government is and was

operation northwoods is a plan   for the government to attack its own cities to justify a invasion of cuba


but because of kennedy it did not happen

doesnt this sound familiar kind of like 9/11 right?

wiki for operation northwoods
http://en.wikipedia....tion_Northwoods

other information
http://whatreallyhap...northwoods.html

i think its obvious that 9/11 wasnt a terrorist attack and that it was more for the land and  the riches that land has i.e. the oil.

youtube  video



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#65    illuminated

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 10:04 PM

View PostTK0001, on 29 October 2010 - 08:04 PM, said:

You keep trying to bait me into a tangent, when all these subjects have been discussed ad nauseum. Please feel free to back up any of these ridiculous claims with actual proof, and we'll talk.

I'd like to see evidence of "explosive residue" (where, you don't say, but I'll assume at Ground Zero).

They fell "so fast" because of gravity.

Building 7 sustained a 20 story gash in it's south side due to the collapsing north tower. That, combined with widespread fires which spread for hours with no firefighting effort whatsoever, led to the building's eventual failure.

And from what I recall, two black boxes were recovered, and two were not. Incidentally, how does the recovery/non-recovery of black boxes indicate complicity? What do you think is on/in a black box?


proof of residue chose any of these links

http://911research.w...e_residues.html

http://portland.indy...06/341238.shtml

and for the black boxes it will tell you alot as why did the plane take off with the terrorist in the cockpit already.
what calls were received and  sent out from the planes
and what was said in the cockpit
they said the boxes where damaged beyond recovery which is stupid seeing as how  pilots all say the boxes cannot be damaged beyond recovery

and Sakari  theprice is still high because they can charge w.e they want for it.
and afghanistan and iraq  do not make  profit from it

pipeline information
http://www.thedebate...afghanistan.asp

and so no confusion central asia pipeline is  american owned
http://www.worldpres...p/pipelines.htm

http://members.local...fafghanpipe.htm

View Postregeneratia, on 29 October 2010 - 08:50 PM, said:

It is time to stop funding the CIA and to totally dismantle them. They are a harm to national security.


we do not fund the CIA the CIA is funded by private companies meaning corporate america runs the CIA

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#66    TK0001

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 10:14 PM

View Postilluminated, on 29 October 2010 - 10:04 PM, said:


Stephen Jones and his amazing discovery of sulfur at the site?

Sulfur is found in drywall. There was a lot of drywall in the towers.

Thermate consists of more barium nitrate (29%) than sulfur (2%). If the sulfur found at the site was attributed to thermate, then there should have been a lot more barium nitrate detected. Was there?


#67    TK0001

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 10:17 PM

View Postilluminated, on 29 October 2010 - 10:04 PM, said:

they said the boxes where damaged beyond recovery which is stupid seeing as how  pilots all say the boxes cannot be damaged beyond recovery

Did they ever envision a 100+ story building collapsing on them?

I'm sure no one ever considered black boxes completely indestructible.

Also, black boxes have been lost in open ocean plane crashes.


#68    Sakari

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 10:28 PM

Quote

nd Sakari  theprice is still high because they can charge w.e they want for it.

OPEC , I think you have heard of them , and how they decide pricing......Iraq is part of OPEC , yes , they make money on Oil....

Quote

The Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC, pronounced /ˈoʊpɛk/ OH-pek) is a cartel of twelve countries made up of Algeria, Angola, Ecuador,Iran,Iraq, KuwaitLibya, Nigeria, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, andVenezuela. OPEC has maintained its headquarters in Vienna since 1965,[2] and hosts regular meetings among the oil ministers of its Member Countries.






Quote

and afghanistan and iraq ( look above ) do not make  profit from it


Quote

Development of Afghanistan's oil and gas resources is essential to the country's economic development.



Ok , they do not have a oil production , but they do have a supply , they make there money on Agriculture.....So , why again do people say we went there for the oil?




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#69    Sakari

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 10:35 PM

View PostTK0001, on 29 October 2010 - 10:17 PM, said:

Did they ever envision a 100+ story building collapsing on them?

I'm sure no one ever considered black boxes completely indestructible.

Also, black boxes have been lost in open ocean plane crashes.

Black boxes are not "Superman" , or made from some space material that can not be destroyed.....They have and will be destroyed in other crashes......I guess the US Government is involved in belows crash also......

Quote

ATHENS, Aug. 16 - Greek investigators struggling to unravel the events that led to the country's deadliest airline disaster said Tuesday that one of the two black boxes recovered from the wreckage was "gutted" and probably rendered useless from the severe crash.


And that plane did not hit a building at full speed , and full of fuel....


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#70    TK0001

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 10:49 PM

View PostSakari, on 29 October 2010 - 10:35 PM, said:

Black boxes are not "Superman" , or made from some space material that can not be destroyed.....They have and will be destroyed in other crashes......I guess the US Government is involved in belows crash also......




And that plane did not hit a building at full speed , and full of fuel....


My link

Preaching to the choir, Sakari.


#71    Sakari

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 10:54 PM

View PostTK0001, on 29 October 2010 - 10:49 PM, said:

Preaching to the choir, Sakari.

I know , it was not for you , your quote just fit it better :)

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#72    Q24

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 11:54 PM

Why is it that most 9/11 threads turn to discussion about the WTC buildings?  I really shouldn’t get sucked into this but I can’t stand to see the misconceptions…


View PostTK0001, on 29 October 2010 - 08:04 PM, said:

Building 7 sustained a 20 story gash in it's south side due to the collapsing north tower. That, combined with…
This must be your own theory because the official report by NIST has said that debris impact to the south side of WTC7 was irrelevant to the collapse; the damage was superficial so far as the collapse mechanism was concerned.  NIST NCSTAR 1A, pg.48: -

“This is the first known instance where fire-induced local damage (i.e. buckling failure of Column 79; one of 82 columns in WTC 7) led to the collapse of an entire tall building.”

“Even without the initial structural damage caused by debris impact from the collapse of WTC 1, WTC 7 would have collapsed from fires having the same characteristics as those experienced on September 11, 2001.”


I do understand why you would attempt to attribute the collapse in part to the debris damage.  It is after all quite absurd to claim that the initial buckling of a single column brought the entire building down a matter of seconds later.  What this is effectively saying is that column 79 on its own carried vital loads across the entire structure.  I would not enter a building knowing that it relied entirely on one column out of the 82 present.  It is ridiculous.

And so back to your own theory of debris impact damage contributing to the collapse.  I think perhaps the reason that NIST did not incorporate this into their theory is that evidence of significant internal structural damage or an initial partial collapse that may have resulted from it are completely absent.  In other words, your theory is one which relies on speculation.  This would perhaps be worth more consideration if it were supported rather than opposed by comparable events.

WTC 5 & 6: -

Posted Image


WTC 4: -

Posted Image


Bankers Trust Building: -

Posted Image


All of these buildings were impacted by the same type of debris as WTC7 (some far more seriously so) and yet not one came even close to entering into a sudden, near freefall (actually NIST have now admitted that the initial couple of seconds were pure freefall), ‘global’ collapse.  Wherever you want to go with this debris damage theory, supporting evidence that it did, or even could have, led to collapse is severly lacking.


View PostTK0001, on 29 October 2010 - 10:14 PM, said:

Stephen Jones and his amazing discovery of sulfur at the site?

Sulfur is found in drywall. There was a lot of drywall in the towers.
The links are not describing the “high temperature corrosion attack on the steel, including oxidation and sulfidation” found in the debris pile.  That was actually discovered and reported by FEMA anyhow, not Steven Jones.

The links are referring to thermitic material discovered in the WTC dust.  There is a peer reviewed paper published here with analysis of the samples.  Whilst I do not doubt that the material has thermitic properties, I am not personally convinced this is dedicated thermite used to bring down the WTC buildings.  More research is needed.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#73    illuminated

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 02:57 AM

View PostQ24, on 29 October 2010 - 11:54 PM, said:

Why is it that most 9/11 threads turn to discussion about the WTC buildings?  I really shouldn’t get sucked into this but I can’t stand to see the misconceptions…



This must be your own theory because the official report by NIST has said that debris impact to the south side of WTC7 was irrelevant to the collapse; the damage was superficial so far as the collapse mechanism was concerned.  NIST NCSTAR 1A, pg.48: -

“This is the first known instance where fire-induced local damage (i.e. buckling failure of Column 79; one of 82 columns in WTC 7) led to the collapse of an entire tall building.”

“Even without the initial structural damage caused by debris impact from the collapse of WTC 1, WTC 7 would have collapsed from fires having the same characteristics as those experienced on September 11, 2001.”


I do understand why you would attempt to attribute the collapse in part to the debris damage.  It is after all quite absurd to claim that the initial buckling of a single column brought the entire building down a matter of seconds later.  What this is effectively saying is that column 79 on its own carried vital loads across the entire structure.  I would not enter a building knowing that it relied entirely on one column out of the 82 present.  It is ridiculous.

And so back to your own theory of debris impact damage contributing to the collapse.  I think perhaps the reason that NIST did not incorporate this into their theory is that evidence of significant internal structural damage or an initial partial collapse that may have resulted from it are completely absent.  In other words, your theory is one which relies on speculation.  This would perhaps be worth more consideration if it were supported rather than opposed by comparable events.




All of these buildings were impacted by the same type of debris as WTC7 (some far more seriously so) and yet not one came even close to entering into a sudden, near freefall (actually NIST have now admitted that the initial couple of seconds were pure freefall), ‘global’ collapse.  Wherever you want to go with this debris damage theory, supporting evidence that it did, or even could have, led to collapse is severly lacking.



The links are not describing the “high temperature corrosion attack on the steel, including oxidation and sulfidation” found in the debris pile.  That was actually discovered and reported by FEMA anyhow, not Steven Jones.

The links are referring to thermitic material discovered in the WTC dust.  There is a peer reviewed paper published here with analysis of the samples.  Whilst I do not doubt that the material has thermitic properties, I am not personally convinced this is dedicated thermite used to bring down the WTC buildings.  More research is needed.


well said im glad someone actually reads all of information provided instead of a few sections and think they  can instantly debunk it as bogus or irrelevant..

the thermite can be added to paint  and is highly flamable and is damage from burning thermite is  stronger than fuel from a airplane
i dont know if thats where the thermite was but it would make sence seeing as how after someone  gets fired or quit they repaint the office space they occupied.

also
black boxes are built to survive a plane crash

read
http://www.rense.com...strangecase.htm

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#74    Sakari

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 04:01 AM

View Postilluminated, on 30 October 2010 - 02:57 AM, said:


black boxes are built to survive a plane crash



They DO NOT survive all plane crashed , there are plenty of them that did not , and they are not in a conspiracy?

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#75    TK0001

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Posted 30 October 2010 - 03:18 PM

View Postilluminated, on 30 October 2010 - 02:57 AM, said:

well said im glad someone actually reads all of information provided instead of a few sections and think they  can instantly debunk it as bogus or irrelevant..

Speaking of reading - Q24 isn't saying he agrees with you.

Quote

I am not personally convinced this is dedicated thermite used to bring down the WTC buildings.


View Postilluminated, on 30 October 2010 - 02:57 AM, said:

the thermite can be added to paint  and is highly flamable and is damage from burning thermite is  stronger than fuel from a airplane i dont know if thats where the thermite was but it would make sence seeing as how after someone  gets fired or quit they repaint the office space they occupied.

See, for me, the whole idea that thermate was planted is so completely asinine that I really don't bother getting involved in heavy duty research. That's a fault of mine, admittedly. Also, it's not worth the waste of time, since any questions I pose will be ignored. Such as: where is the barium nitrate?

Regardless, the idea that a "HIGHLY FLAMMABLE" substance was slathered all over the beams and not one beam ignited while a FULLY FUELED PASSENGER PLANE slammed into the buildings and set off fires which burned out of control for hours is so completely beyond the realm of reality, I just don't see the need to research it more.

Convince me that thermate would be effective to burn through a building's beam when used as a paint (thermate burns in a downward direction, and the beams were vertical - see the problem?), then convince me that it could somehow survive the conditions above, then convince me how this paint all caught fire at the same time, and then I'll dig into it a bit further.





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