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Who Wrecked the Balkans


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#16    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 07 January 2011 - 11:26 PM

Case closed.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#17    Black Red Devil

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 02:50 AM

Well, well, well, well.  Sounds familiar in reverse (Afghanistan  mujadeen!!).   How easy it is to go from a baddy to a goody and  viceversa depending on which side you're on. :rolleyes:

Quote

suddently posing shoeless in a tent in the summer of 1998 for a photo op  seated among armed Albanian secessionists which up to then had been  characterized by the State Department as "terrorists", and shortly  thereafter announcing to Milosevic that Serbia would be bombed unless he  withdrew security forces from the province, in effect giving it to the  ex-terrorists transformed by the Holbrooke blessing into freedom  fighters.



Now, in the article, the writer is making a stack of sensationalistic proclaims without evidence or proof and above all, it sounds quite ridiculous to make out Milosevic to be an innocent bystander, a victim of circumstance or even worse, to put somebody else on his same level.  Afterall, who started the whole mess?

But, on the other hand, is the whole story fiction or is there some element of truth in it???  It's not that the Us Govt has never been involved in strange and devious plots for it's own purpose and self interest (WMD comes to mind amongst other things).
We may never know, but one thing is certain, Milosevic was a criminal, the most accredited criminal in this conflict and nobody can take that title away from him.

Edited by BlackRedLittleDevil, 08 January 2011 - 02:51 AM.

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#18    Yes_Man

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 08:51 AM

Wow this woman is shocking, so biast its unreal.


#19    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 08 January 2011 - 12:58 PM

View PostBlackRedLittleDevil, on 08 January 2011 - 02:50 AM, said:

Well, well, well, well.  Sounds familiar in reverse (Afghanistan  mujadeen!!).   How easy it is to go from a baddy to a goody and  viceversa depending on which side you're on. :rolleyes:





Now, in the article, the writer is making a stack of sensationalistic proclaims without evidence or proof and above all, it sounds quite ridiculous to make out Milosevic to be an innocent bystander, a victim of circumstance or even worse, to put somebody else on his same level.  Afterall, who started the whole mess?

But, on the other hand, is the whole story fiction or is there some element of truth in it???  It's not that the Us Govt has never been involved in strange and devious plots for it's own purpose and self interest (WMD comes to mind amongst other things).
We may never know, but one thing is certain, Milosevic was a criminal, the most accredited criminal in this conflict and nobody can take that title away from him.

I'm not particularly happy with the Taliban paralel, you know. I know what you had in mind, but ex-Yu and Afghanistan don't share enough of common features to be put in the same basket. These two separate situations must be seen as such, separate and each with its own set of rather complicated causes, implications and outcomes.



And hereís the brutal truth:
Milosevic started the whole mess and he did not hide his goal was to expand Serbian borders and establish aggressive, totalitarian hegemony on occupied territories.
He organized the travelling circus, literally. Psychopaths like Seselj would go around and held speeches in front of audience dressed in WWII Serbian chetnik uniforms. Such rallies were called ďdogađanje narodaĒ Ė the happening of the people. That should imply it was all spontaneous.
The goal was to scare other nations in silent acceptance of Milosevicís coup.
Waste resources in control of JNA (Peopleís Army of Yugoslavia), illegally seized in that never recognized coup, and waste amounts of outdated but still very deadly weapons were distributed to Serbian civilians under excuse theyíve been threatened by other nations.
So, weíre at the point where everything is set up for war. Milosevic is only waiting for the ďgreen lightĒ (the guarantee of the major players that they wonít intervene) and Ė gets it. **** hits the fan on March 28th 1991, when Serbian paramilitary ambushed the bus with Croatian policemen in Plitvice and killed Josip Jovich, 22 years old. May he rest in peace.
In the following years my home town was bombed by mortars, heavy artillery, tanks, 250 kg airplane bombs, various other projectiles, old Russian earth-to-earth missile included... countless bullets were not that problematic, the chance of catching one is quite small, but exploding shells are horrifyingly effective. Phosphorus shells were fired at our corn and wheat fields and our fire-fighters had to chose between putting out fires that devoured homes and those that devoured the crops.
And so on.
Itís still very, very real for me and it will follow me to the rest of my life.        

Now, itís possible to blame the US, Europe, Russia, dear god or Brazilian samba dancers for not meddling in, but the fact remains it was Serbian leadership at that time, with Milosevic on top, that planed, organized and carried it out.  
  
Milosevic guaranteed to his main sponsors in UK (not US, it was UK) that JNA will crush people armed with antique guns from WWII in few weeks. He forgot the determination to stay alive can do wonders.
For example, Iím still alive. Heís not. tee-hee :w00t:


Serbia received some diplomatic help and some weapons from Russia (but - funny, isn't it? - Diane doesn't feel like writing a book about that), others just stood there, watching and waiting, hoping the whole mess will settle down by itself. It didn't, so US decided to finally cut the crap and therefore save god knows how many more lives.

Many countries sent humanitarian aid, accepted refugees and treated wounded. Germany, Norway, US, Italy, Austria... thank you all, kind people, and forgive me for not listing every single country. You know who you are and I love you. Sincerely.

The bombs that were dropped on Serbia could have been avoided, easily. They served to only one purpose - to force Milosevic to negotiate and stop the agression. Milosevic knew what will happen, but he didn't care for his people, the way he spent them in the war clearly shows he enjoyed the pain and suffering and his true psychopath motiv was not Serbian chauvinism, it was need to inflict pain, on Serbs too.  

Kosovo blew up when - thanks to Milosevic's stupidity - Serbia was weak enough it couldn't hold it in the iron grip like before. But that process was imminent too and if anyone sped it up it was Milosevic, not US.
After all, Kosovo is not an issue constructed by the US. That issue is older than the US itself.
If you want to understand what the hell is going on there, you must look further back. Start with Ottoman occupation and patiently follow the trail of blood all the way up to today, but do not skip Aleksandar Rankovic. Discovering that part of ex-Yu history will show two seemingly contradictory things:
First, there are no guilty and not guilty over here, everyone has their share of guilt, inherited or self-made.
Second, the fall of Yugoslavia was imminent because it was Serboslavia in practice.

Dianeís book is just another in a series of pathetic attempts to whitewash the failed Greater Serbia project and push it back on us.
Well... YOU SHALL NOT PASS.
Every friendly human being is welcome in my house, I donít care about their nation, religion, colour, wealth. But show up on my doorstep with a gun and Iíll rip your throat out.

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#20    odas

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 06:01 AM

Helen, you have more brain in yor pinki finger then diane in her whole square head.
Your post is on a scale from one to ten a twenty.
My respect.
Am I surprised? Not at all knowing that you are nase gore list.


#21    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 09:12 AM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 07 January 2011 - 08:57 PM, said:

I’m rolling my eyes so hard I can see inside my head. Oh, look, there’s my brain.

Dont roll them so hard. You will become like this fish:


http://www.unexplain...howtopic=196589
:tu:


Great post.btw

Edited by the L, 09 January 2011 - 10:03 AM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#22    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 01:46 PM

View Postodas, on 09 January 2011 - 06:01 AM, said:

Helen, you have more brain in yor pinki finger then diane in her whole square head.
Your post is on a scale from one to ten a twenty.
My respect.
Am I surprised? Not at all knowing that you are nase gore list.
Hvala, hvala :D
Natural selection still works in Balkans :lol:
Various Dianes underestimate us, believing that our constant misfortune is the proof of our lesser abilities, while the truth is itís our soul that keeps us in trouble. Weíre simply not cold-hearted enough to find our place in todayís world.
But that will change.


View Postthe L, on 09 January 2011 - 09:12 AM, said:

Dont roll them so hard. You will become like this fish:


http://www.unexplain...howtopic=196589
:tu:


Great post.btw
I am like that fish already. What I think is clear for all to see and I can stand high pressure :D



BTW, itís funny how Balkan related threads usually draw Balkan people only. The rest of the world doesnít understand, doesnít care and doesnít want to know.
Which is absolutely fine, but couldnít the rest of the world give it up completely then?
Itís highly offensive and totally unfair to have various misinformed malicious Dianes write books that totally disregard the impact their constructions will have on people in question. If she doesnít know whatís going on, then she could kindly shut up, if she does know then she should be aware weíre living, breathing, feeling and bleeding people, not lifeless pawns on the table.  
I hope some people get visited by ghosts of our war, ghosts of children in particular. Maybe that would help them understand.

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#23    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 09 January 2011 - 02:06 PM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 09 January 2011 - 01:46 PM, said:

BTW, itís funny how Balkan related threads usually draw Balkan people only. The rest of the world doesnít understand, doesnít care and doesnít want to know.
True. But I think that is the case with many area in the world not just Balkan.


View PostHelen of Annoy, on 09 January 2011 - 01:46 PM, said:

I hope some people get visited by ghosts of our war, ghosts of children in particular. Maybe that would help them understand.
What goes around comes around. Im sure that she will get what she deserve. In one way or another.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#24    Black Red Devil

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 09:59 AM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 08 January 2011 - 12:58 PM, said:

I'm not particularly happy with the Taliban paralel, you know. I know what you had in mind, but ex-Yu and Afghanistan don't share enough of common features to be put in the same basket. These two separate situations must be seen as such, separate and each with its own set of rather complicated causes, implications and outcomes.



And here's the brutal truth:
Milosevic started the whole mess and he did not hide his goal was to expand Serbian borders and establish aggressive, totalitarian hegemony on occupied territories.
He organized the travelling circus, literally. Psychopaths like Seselj would go around and held speeches in front of audience dressed in WWII Serbian chetnik uniforms. Such rallies were called "događanje naroda" – the happening of the people. That should imply it was all spontaneous.
The goal was to scare other nations in silent acceptance of Milosevic's coup.
Waste resources in control of JNA (People's Army of Yugoslavia), illegally seized in that never recognized coup, and waste amounts of outdated but still very deadly weapons were distributed to Serbian civilians under excuse they've been threatened by other nations.
So, we're at the point where everything is set up for war. Milosevic is only waiting for the "green light" (the guarantee of the major players that they won't intervene) and – gets it. **** hits the fan on March 28th 1991, when Serbian paramilitary ambushed the bus with Croatian policemen in Plitvice and killed Josip Jovich, 22 years old. May he rest in peace.
In the following years my home town was bombed by mortars, heavy artillery, tanks, 250 kg airplane bombs, various other projectiles, old Russian earth-to-earth missile included... countless bullets were not that problematic, the chance of catching one is quite small, but exploding shells are horrifyingly effective. Phosphorus shells were fired at our corn and wheat fields and our fire-fighters had to chose between putting out fires that devoured homes and those that devoured the crops.
And so on.
It's still very, very real for me and it will follow me to the rest of my life.

Now, it's possible to blame the US, Europe, Russia, dear god or Brazilian samba dancers for not meddling in, but the fact remains it was Serbian leadership at that time, with Milosevic on top, that planed, organized and carried it out.  
  
Milosevic guaranteed to his main sponsors in UK (not US, it was UK) that JNA will crush people armed with antique guns from WWII in few weeks. He forgot the determination to stay alive can do wonders.
For example, I'm still alive. He's not. tee-hee :w00t:


Serbia received some diplomatic help and some weapons from Russia (but - funny, isn't it? - Diane doesn't feel like writing a book about that), others just stood there, watching and waiting, hoping the whole mess will settle down by itself. It didn't, so US decided to finally cut the crap and therefore save god knows how many more lives.

Many countries sent humanitarian aid, accepted refugees and treated wounded. Germany, Norway, US, Italy, Austria... thank you all, kind people, and forgive me for not listing every single country. You know who you are and I love you. Sincerely.

The bombs that were dropped on Serbia could have been avoided, easily. They served to only one purpose - to force Milosevic to negotiate and stop the agression. Milosevic knew what will happen, but he didn't care for his people, the way he spent them in the war clearly shows he enjoyed the pain and suffering and his true psychopath motiv was not Serbian chauvinism, it was need to inflict pain, on Serbs too.  

Kosovo blew up when - thanks to Milosevic's stupidity - Serbia was weak enough it couldn't hold it in the iron grip like before. But that process was imminent too and if anyone sped it up it was Milosevic, not US.
After all, Kosovo is not an issue constructed by the US. That issue is older than the US itself.
If you want to understand what the hell is going on there, you must look further back. Start with Ottoman occupation and patiently follow the trail of blood all the way up to today, but do not skip Aleksandar Rankovic. Discovering that part of ex-Yu history will show two seemingly contradictory things:
First, there are no guilty and not guilty over here, everyone has their share of guilt, inherited or self-made.
Second, the fall of Yugoslavia was imminent because it was Serboslavia in practice.

Diane's book is just another in a series of pathetic attempts to whitewash the failed Greater Serbia project and push it back on us.
Well... YOU SHALL NOT PASS.
Every friendly human being is welcome in my house, I don't care about their nation, religion, colour, wealth. But show up on my doorstep with a gun and I'll rip your throat out.

;).  Well written post which just goes to show how people who think they know, may know what happens in real war situations but only those who live these experiences are the true witnesses to the event and may have suffered the crude brutality that humans are capable of.  

Going back to the first paragraph of your response (bolded), my comment wasn't meant to compare the situation in Afghanistan to what happened in Yugo.  I was just pointing out the fact that the article depicted a perfect example and the hypocracy of it all, where one mans terrorist becomes another mans hero, depending on which side you sit on.  For the Soviets, the mujadeen were terrorists, the west called them freedom fighters.  Similar to the Albanian secessionists who basically went from terrosists to freedom fighters overnight.  Pffff, politics!!!

Edited by BlackRedLittleDevil, 10 January 2011 - 10:24 AM.

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#25    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 10 January 2011 - 06:26 PM

View PostBlackRedLittleDevil, on 10 January 2011 - 09:59 AM, said:

;).  Well written post which just goes to show how people who think they know, may know what happens in real war situations but only those who live these experiences are the true witnesses to the event and may have suffered the crude brutality that humans are capable of.  

Going back to the first paragraph of your response (bolded), my comment wasn't meant to compare the situation in Afghanistan to what happened in Yugo.  I was just pointing out the fact that the article depicted a perfect example and the hypocracy of it all, where one mans terrorist becomes another mans hero, depending on which side you sit on.  For the Soviets, the mujadeen were terrorists, the west called them freedom fighters.  Similar to the Albanian secessionists who basically went from terrosists to freedom fighters overnight.  Pffff, politics!!!

Absolutely, one day Rambo is playing polo with them, the next day thereís a guided missile exploding in their butt.


That was the sane part of my response.
Now, the scroll that follows is a form of therapy for me and I honestly donít expect anyone to read it. I just have to spout it out or Iíll explode.

The status of Kosovo terrorists/freedom fighters is pretty much cemented now in favour of freedom fighters, but if Macedonia blows up (god forbid, but itís possible) even that can change. Not necessarily against Albanians, it could be Macedonians promoted into terrorists in their own land, overnight. Similar thing almost happened to Croats in Croatia, in the Ď90s, thanks to horrifying political clumsiness of Croatian leadership at that time. Sometimes I think they were actually deliberately trying to screw up Croatia, not pull it out of the mess.

Diane would love that idea of government that (knowingly or not knowingly) works for mysterious puppet master :D but realistically, they were simply wrong people in the wrong place at the wrong time. Even I Ė hell, even my grandmother Ė would pull it out better than naturally antipathetic and incompetent Tudjman did. But itís too late now.
All those wonderful people on all three sides are now dead.
(War criminals survived, thatís almost funny how psychos always survive. I have attacks of religiousness when I think about it, itís like my grandmother was right and the devil keeps them alive to do even more evil.)
  
What could have stopped the Serbian aggression were patience, steel nerves, impeccable manoeuvring and Ė honesty. Our president had none of these. He played tennis and sipped champagne while Vukovar was burning. Unbelievable but still forgivable. Let's say he didn't know what to do. But he also ordered the murder of Josip Reichl Kir, one of true heroes of the Homeland war, the honourable man that was personally zooming back and forth between Serbian and Croatian villages, ensuring peace. Now, that's un-****en-believable and un-****en-forgivable.

There were Ė and still are Ė mixed villages in Gorski Kotar region, but there was no war. You know why? Because Serbs and Croats exchanged children. Not a bullet was fired. I bow to those people, I bow to the ground to them.  
  
So even if Richard Holbrooke was a demon and possessed Milosevic or Izetbegovich, our fate was still in our hands.
  
Thereís no conspiracy that can excuse each and every one of us. Everyone has to answer for their own actions, from the top leaders to the lowest drunken idiot who was waking me up with howitzer every morning. May he wakes up like that the one who gave him the stinking howitzer. Every ****ing morning. In Hell.

Well, leaders are now excused by death, all three are dead by now.
Among them, Izetbegovich was definitely the last one anyone can accuse of wanting, starting or prolonging the war. Bosniak situation was the hardest, they are squeezed among Serbs and Croats and had no weapons at all. Which reminds me of hilarious UN embargo that stopped us from arming ourselves against aggression. Gee, thanks, UN, I felt so saved by your peacemaking wisdom when JNA helicopter fired anti-tank missile through my house and I was armed with dough roller. *cough* fags *cough*

The cause of this war was mental illness of Serbian leader, the reason why it kept going is high rate of psychopathy among South Slavs combined with half-literacy (yes, my eastern neighbours, I am winking at you in particular), and one of the consequences of that war is this post.
Sorry. I canít promise I wonít do it again.
I told you not to read ;)

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#26    odas

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 01:40 AM

[quote name='Helen of Annoy' timestamp='1294684019' post='3732380']
What could have stopped the Serbian aggression were patience, steel nerves, impeccable manoeuvring and – honesty. Our president had none of these. He played tennis and sipped champagne while Vukovar was burning. Unbelievable but still forgivable. Let's say he didn't know what to do. But he also ordered the murder of Josip Reichl Kir, one of true heroes of the Homeland war, the honourable man that was personally zooming back and forth between Serbian and Croatian villages, ensuring peace. Now, that's un-****en-believable and un-****en-forgivable.




Let us not, and never forgett, that he also ordered the assasination of my Hero, the Great Bosnian Croat Blaz Nikola
Kraljevic. Rest in peace Brother.


Edited by odas, 11 January 2011 - 01:41 AM.


#27    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 11 January 2011 - 06:07 PM

View Postodas, on 11 January 2011 - 01:40 AM, said:

Let us not, and never forgett, that he also ordered the assasination of my Hero, the Great Bosnian Croat Blaz Nikola
Kraljevic. Rest in peace Brother.

After Blaz Kraljevic was murdered, the war broke out between Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Muslims. People like him and Reichl Kir had personal integrity and honest intentions. Apparently, that was unforgivable sin back then.
In times like that, people look for leaders and Tudjman was scared of natural leaders that could cast shadow on his ďgeniusĒ and spoil his dirty totalitarian fantasies. Itís almost funny, in a morbid way, how every significant and successful defender was obstructed by Tudjman himself... two Jastrebs of Vukovar ended up in Croatian prison... do I need to say more?
I owe my freedom and my life to disobedient people. But why am I still so amazed with that, thatís typical for Balkan.

Just like myths are typical for Balkan. And thatís extremely bad, because we wonít have true peace and cooperation until average person (of any nation) stops, takes a good and honest look at our history and admits the truth to themselves.
I donít ask we start talking completely open with each other Ė although Iím doing it, Odas does it so can you Ė Iím appealing to every one of us to stop lying to themselves.  
It wasnít the Americans that wrecked Balkans, it was those among us that chose the myths over their real, living neighbours.

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#28    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 15 June 2011 - 09:52 PM

View PostHelen of Annoy, on 11 January 2011 - 06:07 PM, said:

After Blaz Kraljevic was murdered, the war broke out between Bosnian Croats and Bosnian Muslims. People like him and Reichl Kir had personal integrity and honest intentions. Apparently, that was unforgivable sin back then.
In times like that, people look for leaders and Tudjman was scared of natural leaders that could cast shadow on his ďgeniusĒ and spoil his dirty totalitarian fantasies. Itís almost funny, in a morbid way, how every significant and successful defender was obstructed by Tudjman himself... two Jastrebs of Vukovar ended up in Croatian prison... do I need to say more?
I owe my freedom and my life to disobedient people. But why am I still so amazed with that, thatís typical for Balkan.

Just like myths are typical for Balkan. And thatís extremely bad, because we wonít have true peace and cooperation until average person (of any nation) stops, takes a good and honest look at our history and admits the truth to themselves.
I donít ask we start talking completely open with each other Ė although Iím doing it, Odas does it so can you Ė Iím appealing to every one of us to stop lying to themselves.  
It wasnít the Americans that wrecked Balkans, it was those among us that chose the myths over their real, living neighbours.
Helen whats your opinon why Bosnians and Croats get into fight? Who attacked who? What was  trigger? And main WHY?

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#29    odas

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 02:15 PM

View Postthe L, on 15 June 2011 - 09:52 PM, said:

Helen whats your opinon why Bosnians and Croats get into fight? Who attacked who? What was  trigger? And main WHY?

I am going to wait for Helens response but I am sure she knows the facts. Just wanted to add that this was the first ever war between Bosniaks and Croats. Luckyly it did not last long although a lot of dammage has been done. Actually this was not a war between Croats and Bosniaks but a war against only one fraction and a bad ideology in one part of Bosnia. In every other part Croats and Bosniaks continued to work together to defend Croatia and Bosnia. A very sad part of our History. Never again.
I love Croatia. Have very fond memories. My cousins fought in the regular HVO army in Croatia. Their father died defending Croatia at the age of 47.


#30    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 16 June 2011 - 05:15 PM

View Postodas, on 16 June 2011 - 02:15 PM, said:

I am going to wait for Helens response but I am sure she knows the facts. Just wanted to add that this was the first ever war between Bosniaks and Croats. Luckyly it did not last long although a lot of dammage has been done. Actually this was not a war between Croats and Bosniaks but a war against only one fraction and a bad ideology in one part of Bosnia. In every other part Croats and Bosniaks continued to work together to defend Croatia and Bosnia. A very sad part of our History. Never again.
I love Croatia. Have very fond memories. My cousins fought in the regular HVO army in Croatia. Their father died defending Croatia at the age of 47.

Hey Odas you are free to say it first. We all know truth that Slobodan Milosevic and chetniks started all. Also Im aware of great cooperation between Bosnians and Croats during and after war. It is in intrest of us all to know truth. Whoever started its nothing to be ashamed. Its not like you and me did it.  Also I was in Sarajevo recently and I was surprised to hear some realy bad stories about Croats.  Negative atitude. I was so sad. I was called Ustaša..Imagine..Im not puting oil on the fire. Just trying to have constructive argument. Why I mean why did we fought between us. Never understand it.


EDIT: First and last I hoped.)I never heard any good theories from both sides. Its like both sides are ashamed of it. At least both side want that be hush-hush. I dont know. Maybe Im just not so informed.

Edited by the L, 16 June 2011 - 05:35 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."




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