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Who Wrecked the Balkans


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#61    odas

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 03:35 PM

I can go on and on and on...like the energy bunny. :w00t:

The bogumils:

They renounced all external rites and ceremonies, because they found God inside them.  The movement of the Bogomil could keep nearly half a millennium in the Balkans.

The Bogomil were so, at least in their majority, not followers of a "radical" (Gnostic) dualism, which since time immemorial, the principles good and evil exist on equal footing.  Rather, they represented a "moderate dualism," that God is the source of life and stronger than the evil will be defeated one day.
If the Bogomil is assumed to today is that they thought only of a sham existence of Jesus of Nazareth on the earth, and to a mock crucifixion ("Docetism"), then this is probably based on a misunderstanding: They believed that the inner core of the personality of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, namely God, not of this world and was therefore could not be killed.
Because they are in the Old Testament of the Bible were very many statements it with a loving God could not be reconciled, they rejected the book as widely recognized only the Psalms and the books of six prophets as given by God, but not for example the books of Moses, they were inspired by the devil for.  The possibility that these books, like so many others, by the then priest caste had been falsified, they were obviously not familiar with - had yet to church the profound criticism of the text erased, for example, an Origen already many centuries earlier heretic and significant.

http://translate.goo...=660&prmd=ivnsb

Edited by odas, 20 June 2011 - 03:36 PM.


#62    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 03:36 PM

View Postodas, on 20 June 2011 - 03:35 PM, said:

I can go on and on and on...like the energy bunny. :w00t:

The bogumils:

They renounced all external rites and ceremonies, because they found God inside them.  The movement of the Bogomil could keep nearly half a millennium in the Balkans.

The Bogomil were so, at least in their majority, not followers of a "radical" (Gnostic) dualism, which since time immemorial, the principles good and evil exist on equal footing.  Rather, they represented a "moderate dualism," that God is the source of life and stronger than the evil will be defeated one day.
If the Bogomil is assumed to today is that they thought only of a sham existence of Jesus of Nazareth on the earth, and to a mock crucifixion ("Docetism"), then this is probably based on a misunderstanding: They believed that the inner core of the personality of Jesus of Nazareth, the Christ, namely God, not of this world and was therefore could not be killed.
Because they are in the Old Testament of the Bible were very many statements it with a loving God could not be reconciled, they rejected the book as widely recognized only the Psalms and the books of six prophets as given by God, but not for example the books of Moses, they were inspired by the devil for.  The possibility that these books, like so many others, by the then priest caste had been falsified, they were obviously not familiar with - had yet to church the profound criticism of the text erased, for example, an Origen already many centuries earlier heretic and significant.

http://translate.goo...=660&prmd=ivnsb

You are skiping. Ignoring main questions.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#63    odas

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 03:50 PM

View Postthe L, on 20 June 2011 - 03:36 PM, said:

You are skiping. Ignoring main questions.

Which ones? Maybe you did not see my previous post, the last one on page 4.
Here it is again:

Bogumils were christians who were not catholics or orthodox.
Bosnia was a nation, just like Croatia or Serbia.
Of course they had their Kingdom. I the peak Bosnia held much of Serbia and Croatia as far as Zadar. (historical fact).
There are numerous maps of Bosnia in medivel times.
In fact they had customs and traditions. Bogumil church had no pope but elders. Women, as oposed to catholicsm and orhthodoxie, were holding the same status as man in the bosnian church.
Yes. Bosnians were a different Slavic tribe. Even the serbian history could not deny it. According to their history the first slavic tribe to come to balkans was serbs, then croats and then the bosnian tribe.


Here is good site if you are interested:

http://govtandeducat...92/bhhisto.html

Excerpt:

It was in Bosnia that the bogomils greatest development took place. In the twelfth century they were already very numerous there, and spread to Split (Spalato) and Dalmatia. Here they came into conflict with the Roman Catholic Church. Tile title of the rulers of Bosnia was Ban, the most eminent of these being Kulin Ban. In 1180 this ruler was addressed by the Pope as a faithful adherent of the Church, but by 1199 it was acknowledged that he and his wife and family and ten thousand Bosnians had joined the Bogomil or Patarene heresy, otherwise churches of believers, in Bosnia. Ninoslav, Prince of the Herzegovina, took the same stand, as did also the Roman Catholic Bishop of Bosnia. The country ceased to be Catholic and experienced a time of prosperity that has remained proverbial ever since. There were no priests, or rather the priesthood of all believers was acknowledged. The churches were guided by elders who were chosen by lot, several in each church, an overseer (called grandfather), and ministering brethren called leaders and elders. Meetings could be held in any house and the regular meeting-places were quite plain, no bells, no altar, only a table, on which might be a white cloth and a copy of the Gospels. A part of the earnings of the brethren was set aside for the relief of sick believers and of the poor and for the support of those who traveled to preach the Gospel among the unconverted.

Edited by odas, 20 June 2011 - 03:51 PM.


#64    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 04:37 PM

I tought Bogomils were sect of gnostics.
Bogomils NEVER have their kingdom. For example when Turks came in Bosnia there was cca 70 000 Bogomils. 600 - 700 000 Croats. I dont see how kingdom of Bosnia was Bogomils.
Map of Bosnia. Not Bogomils.
Bogomils have their own rituals but they were not nation.
Bosniaks were different same as Istrians, Dalmatians, Slavonians in that time before Ottomans.

You didnt said what language used Bogomils?
How many Bogomils lived in Bosnia?

Sorry to be one to tell you but there is not Bosniaks slavic tribe. In Bosnia lived Illyrians. Then came Slavic tribes Croats Serbs. Bosnia was just geographic term. Bosnia was part of Croatia. In Bosnia lived Croats from day 1. All things change after Pacta Conventa and Arpadovići throne.

Im aware that there is now Bosniaks nation. But Bosnia nation become from Croats, Serbs. They were all chatolic, orthodox and bogomils.
When Turks came Croats were numerous in Bosnia. Then came Islam. ...as Islam's self-identifying role for the Bosniaks was similar to that played by Catholicism for the Croats and Orthodoxy for the Serbs.wiki. It is fact.

Also Slavic tribe Bosniaks never came. They never existed. Its new age myth.
I realy wonder why is hard to you to except your origin? Are you learn differnet?
Also do you know that Kotormanić were chatolics? Croats not Bogomils not Bosniaks.

EDIT: According to scribes of Franciscians, number of Croats when Ottomans came is 750 000. 70 000 Bogomils. 30 000 Serbs.

Edited by the L, 20 June 2011 - 04:58 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#65    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 05:11 PM

I think that you now realize that number of Bogomils is irelevant.
Bogomils were sect probably of Croats and Serbs. (?) That is just mystery  to me. In what percentage?

Edited by the L, 20 June 2011 - 05:34 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#66    Goodnite

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 05:37 PM

I like this thread. It's like trying to explain what came first, the chicken or the egg? Keep explaining guys, I think I'm starting to get the picture. :blink:

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#67    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 05:45 PM

View PostGoodnite, on 20 June 2011 - 05:37 PM, said:

I like this thread. It's like trying to explain what came first, the chicken or the egg? Keep explaining guys, I think I'm starting to get the picture. :blink:
And thats just a small part of Balkan history. :w00t:

Its not that hard if you realy want to understand.
Nevertheless, there are few open questions that we still dont agree.

About OP- Milosevic was bad guy. :w00t:
That remember.

Edited by the L, 20 June 2011 - 05:46 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#68    Goodnite

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 05:47 PM

Got it L. I didn't like the SOB.

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#69    Helen of Annoy

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Posted 20 June 2011 - 08:26 PM

L, if you want realistic picture on Bosnian history you canít rely on Croatian school books.

Bosnians were a separate tribe, and no one sane can claim to know the exact percentage of particular tribe members in medieval (and earlier) Bosnia.
I mentioned before that I think itís wrong to limit one nation to one religion, and this is why it is wrong.
Croats are identified by their Catholicism, Serbs by their Orthodoxy and Bosniaks by their Islam. So, you have a country, named Bosnia, very distinctive, with language, culture, even typical genome, and you break it in three by the religious criterion.
Put religion aside and you have Bosnians. Include religion and you have three nations in one crumbling country.

South Slavs were not fully Christianized over night, at first only leaders needed to accept the Christianity because it was politically opportune. The folk kept their own belief far, far longer than some local priest wants to admit today.
So being - for instance - Catholic in 10th century meant something completely else than today. It meant your king was allied with Rome, not that you donít celebrate your gods and goddesses anymore.
And Bogumils didnít vanish, they gradually went, generation by generation, from hiding their true religion to actually accepting new one. Just because some switched to this or that religion doesnít mean they lost their Bosnianess, religion and nation are not the same.

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#70    odas

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 01:38 PM

View Postthe L, on 20 June 2011 - 04:37 PM, said:

I tought Bogomils were sect of gnostics.
Bogomils NEVER have their kingdom. For example when Turks came in Bosnia there was cca 70 000 Bogomils. 600 - 700 000 Croats. I dont see how kingdom of Bosnia was Bogomils.
Map of Bosnia. Not Bogomils.
Bogomils have their own rituals but they were not nation.
Bosniaks were different same as Istrians, Dalmatians, Slavonians in that time before Ottomans.

You didnt said what language used Bogomils?
How many Bogomils lived in Bosnia?

Sorry to be one to tell you but there is not Bosniaks slavic tribe. In Bosnia lived Illyrians. Then came Slavic tribes Croats Serbs. Bosnia was just geographic term. Bosnia was part of Croatia. In Bosnia lived Croats from day 1. All things change after Pacta Conventa and Arpadovići throne.

Im aware that there is now Bosniaks nation. But Bosnia nation become from Croats, Serbs. They were all chatolic, orthodox and bogomils.
When Turks came Croats were numerous in Bosnia. Then came Islam. ...as Islam's self-identifying role for the Bosniaks was similar to that played by Catholicism for the Croats and Orthodoxy for the Serbs.wiki. It is fact.

Also Slavic tribe Bosniaks never came. They never existed. Its new age myth.
I realy wonder why is hard to you to except your origin? Are you learn differnet?

EDIT: According to scribes of Franciscians, number of Croats when Ottomans came is 750 000. 70 000 Bogomils. 30 000 Serbs.

I said Bosnians were a nation and not Bogumils, please read my answere correctly.
As for the language, well, bogumils were a RELIGIOUS sect or movement derived from Zaratrustrian religion, originated in Bulgaria. So Bogumils spoke different langugages, Bulgarian, Serbian, Croatian, Bosnian, Italian...
However, the Bogumils in this area took the root in Bosnia because of the acceptance by Kulin Ban, who made it a state religion. Kulin had to bow down, however to the catholic church to avoid a war. So he was FORCED to take on catholicism and abandon Bogumil religion for a while. You can find the whole story on the net.
As for how many Bogumils lived in Bosnia, I do not know. But to be a state religon it had to be the majority.


Also do you know that Kotormanić were chatolics? Croats not Bogomils not Bosniaks.

You are nationaly and religiously confused. Kotromanic was the BOSNIAN royal house regardless of what religion it may have been.
Are you equating being a catholic is the same as being a Croat? This is a very backward thought. You unpleasently surprised me.


#71    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 03:30 PM

Your words. Bogumils were sect or movement. ...spoke different language.

My question is : People who were Bogomils in Bosnia, what language did they talk? :blink: Please dont skip it.
State religion? How? When there were only 70 000 Bogumils 750 000  chatolics 30 000 Orthodox.
Im not confused Odas. I know my history.

Kotormanić was chatolic.
And to lived when he lived in Bosnia and to be Chatolic is to be Croat.


Or you want to say that in that time lived Bosnians chatolics in Bosnia?
So according to you: When Croats came in Bosnia? :w00t:

I realy wonder who are the chatolics that live in Bosnia right now? Hmm :blush:

Edited by the L, 21 June 2011 - 03:33 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#72    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 03:43 PM

Helen,

My roots are from Bosnia. I didnt look only in Croatian books. Ask any historian: Pacta conventa, Arpadovići is main reason why Bosnia become separate kingdom from Croatia. Before that it was always part of Croatia.

Bosniaks origin is mainly- Croats then Serbs. You dont need to be Anthropologist, Historian to know that. Or should I put it this way. Their ancestors were mainly chatolics then bogomils then orthodox. But when Islam came they become muslims.

Im sane and many other people who claim that know exact number of people who lived in Bosnia before Turks. Thats why we have historians.

Now, put religon aside and then again you have Serbs Croats and Bosniaks. :tu: Can provide more info.
Then, put religion aside then you have Craots and Serbs.

Religon and nationality is not the same. Ofcourse.

Edited by the L, 21 June 2011 - 03:59 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#73    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 03:47 PM

View Postodas, on 21 June 2011 - 01:38 PM, said:

...were a RELIGIOUS sect or movement derived from Zaratrustrian religion, originated in Bulgaria...
If we think about same thing then I think it originated from Iran. And that religon still exist.

http://en.wikipedia..../Zoroastrianism :tu:

I think recently one member (Persia) made a thread about it.

Edited by the L, 21 June 2011 - 03:48 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#74    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 03:54 PM

Ah, here it is:
http://www.unexplain...howtopic=199130

Besides Bogomilism, many religions have roots from it.

Edited by the L, 21 June 2011 - 03:57 PM.

JFK: "And we are as a people, inherently and historically, opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.
For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#75    odas

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 03:59 PM

View Postthe L, on 21 June 2011 - 03:30 PM, said:

Your words. Bogumils were sect or movement. ...spoke different language.

My question is : People who were Bogomils in Bosnia, what language did they talk? :blink: Please dont skip it.
State religion? How? When there were only 70 000 Bogumils 750 000  chatolics 30 000 Orthodox.
Im not confused Odas. I know my history.

Kotormanić was chatolic.
And to lived when he lived in Bosnia and to be Chatolic is to be Croat.


Or you want to say that in that time lived Bosnians chatolics in Bosnia?
So according to you: When Croats came in Bosnia? :w00t:

I realy wonder who are the chatolics that live in Bosnia right now? Hmm :blush:

Obviously you do not have an understanding of Bogumils as well as the seperation of religion and state.
Bogumils spoke Bosnian, which is a slavic dialect, just as is Croatian or Serbian.

Kotromanic may have been a catholic but he was a Bosnian King who called himself a Bosnian. So according to your reasoning if someone is catholic he is Croatian. Well I do not think that Italiens or Spanish would agree with you.
As for the bolumil religion being a Bosnian state religion you realy  do not show much understanding of world history. Your reasoning is much the same as what the serbs say, only the other way. They claim that the majority in Bosnia was back then Serbs and that the bosnian Bans and Kings were serbs.
For centuries my Bosnian people were killed by both, serbs and croats. Both countries claim this land as their own. Two crusades were fought on behalf of the catholic church against my Bosnian people - before the otomans came. Their only fault: Not being croats or serbs but bosnians. We survived and will continue to do so inspite of what you think. My bosnian people are muslims, catholics, orthodox, bogumils, jews, gypsis, atheists and pagans. It was always this way and it will be this way.

I have no desire to continue this conversation which is based on your side on nationalism and fake history but I will end with the words of the great Croatian writer Miroslav Krleza: Sacuvaj me boze srpskog herojstva i hrvatske kulture, means God save me from the serbian heroism and the croatian culture.

Bog decki.





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