Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


- - - - -

Fluoridegate


  • Please log in to reply
187 replies to this topic

#16    regeneratia

regeneratia

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,606 posts
  • Joined:20 Jun 2010
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:All my posts are my own views, my own perceptions. Will not be finding links for why I think the way I do.

  • It is time to put the big guns down now, Little Boys!

Posted 15 January 2011 - 02:24 AM

View PostCopasetic, on 15 January 2011 - 02:05 AM, said:

Yes, public health wise it is an easy and practical fix for a whole nation. Much as its easy for doctors to tell pregnant women to take folic acid rather than test all pregnant women for mutations in genes like dihydrofolate reductase.

Are there a small percentage of people it may not be beneficial too? Yes, possibly just as there is a small percentage of women that folate vitamins have adverse affects on.

In any sufficiently large and varied population, there are always going to be data-outliers which don't benefit from certain public health choices. The trick is to find a means to identify them early before harm could be done.

The evidence for safer, more available and more cost effective ways to ensure fluoride is adequately used to prevent dental caries is essentially non-existent. At current, in terms of public health, fluoridated water is the most effective.

It is not easy to put fluoride in the water. Years ago, before I bought the water-cooler, I tried to alert local officials at the city level that this was happening to my child. There was one man who could reduce the fluoride levels in tap water without calling public attention to it, and that was the ave. I was seeking. He said he really wished he could do it, reduce the levels, said they were already at the bottom levels possible, that the fluoride company he bought fluoride from had recently doubled the price of fluoride. He listened to me, and I left it to his judgements, for I didn't feel the necessity to bring this issue up to the public awareness if he could do the same thing from a side-angle. Did he do it, for public health interests and to save the city money? I don't know. I never followed up. But I can tell you I trusted him, which is hard to do regarding public officials.


Since the enamel depth levels are dependent on genetics and environment of the teeth, it stands to reason that it could be done more adequately and possibly cheaper at the public health level, rather than fluoridating all people because some people need it.

Edited by regeneratia, 15 January 2011 - 02:26 AM.

Truth is such a rare quality, a stranger so seldom met in this civilization of fraud, that it is never received freely, but must fight its way into the world
Professor Hilton Hotema
(quote from THE BIBLE FRAUD)

Robert Heinlein: SECRECY IS THE HALLMARK OF TYRANNY!

#17    Little Fish

Little Fish

    Government Agent

  • Member
  • 4,000 posts
  • Joined:23 Jul 2009
  • Gender:Not Selected

  • The default position is to give a ****

Posted 15 January 2011 - 02:27 AM

View PostStellar, on 15 January 2011 - 01:55 AM, said:

simply because salt is safe to injest does not mean we should assume every composite molecule is safe to injest. What people here are saying is that they dont agree with chemicals being added into our water, and neither do I. I dont like "forced medication" because I don't necessairly believe all the "goods" that come from it. I think people should be able to chose for themselves whether to injest it or not... and when I say they should chose for themselves, I mean that they should be presented with clear water to which they can add fluoride or purchase fluoridated water rather than being given fluoridated water and having to go through a hassel to get clear water.
well said.

everybody's body is different. we should never add drugs to the water supply, especially for something as trivial as tooth decay. if it added to the water there is simply no way to avoid it, compulsory mass medication is unethical. Sodium Fluoride is toxic, very toxic, and biocumulative in the body causing a whole host of problems in later life. Youtube Paul Connnet, EPA scientist of 20 years.


#18    Copasetic

Copasetic

    438579088 what am I?

  • Member
  • 4,237 posts
  • Joined:12 Apr 2008
  • Gender:Male

Posted 15 January 2011 - 02:29 AM

View Postregeneratia, on 15 January 2011 - 02:24 AM, said:

It is not easy to put fluoride in the water. Years ago, before I bought the water-cooler, I tried to alert local officials at the city level that this was happening to my child. There was one man who could reduce the fluoride levels in tap water without calling public attention to it, and that was the ave. I was seeking. He said he really wished he could do it, reduce the levels, said they were already at the bottom levels possible, that the fluoride company he bought fluoride from had recently doubled the price of fluoride. He listened to me, and I left it to his judgements, for I didn't feel the necessity to bring this issue up to the public awareness if he could do the same thing from a side-angle. Did he do it, for public health interests and to save the city money? I don't know. I never followed up. But I can tell you I trusted him, which is hard to do regarding public officials.


Since the enamel depth levels are dependent on genetics and environment of the teeth, it stands to reason that it could be done more adequately and possibly cheaper at the public health level, rather than fluoridating all people because some people need it.

I'm sorry, I'm really tired and I'm not following your story-Could you clarify it?


#19    regeneratia

regeneratia

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,606 posts
  • Joined:20 Jun 2010
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:All my posts are my own views, my own perceptions. Will not be finding links for why I think the way I do.

  • It is time to put the big guns down now, Little Boys!

Posted 15 January 2011 - 02:29 AM

View PostCopasetic, on 15 January 2011 - 02:23 AM, said:

Nor did I suggest that, that would be a strawman Stellar, you're better than that. The salt was an example for someone who might not be familiar with chemistry. Its easy for the names of chemicals to start sounding scary to people with little experience in chemistry or biology. Ever watch Penn and Teller?



Many of these "anti-chemical" and "organic movements" play on people's fears which is built upon a lack of understanding.




As I pointed out above, it is a cost effective and safe public health option. There is lots of stuff in your water you may not want there--traces of many elements (unless you're sneaking some triple d water from the lab) are found in water.

If you are very concerned, many states the choice is left up to the county. If your county adds fluoride to the water you can see that here at the CDC's website, simply click on your state on the map and pick out where you live.

If you are really scared, I'd suggest moving to a new county.

Places that do add fluoride to water sources add around .20 mg/L. While looking at the Institute of medicine's TUL (tolerable upper limit) for fluoride it is 10 mg per day. By drinking lots of water you'd never come close to that. To get a single mg, you'd need to drink 5 L of water a day. If you are a normal American and you're drinking 5L of water a day, you should talk to your doctor (I mean, if you are moderately sedentary and drinking that much).

I honestly do NOT believe that fluoridating the water is safe. There is solid research out there that tells us that it gives children ADHD. There is a lot of research out there on the health hazards of fluoridating tap water. All ya have to do is look, desire to know the truth, and remain objective.

Truth is such a rare quality, a stranger so seldom met in this civilization of fraud, that it is never received freely, but must fight its way into the world
Professor Hilton Hotema
(quote from THE BIBLE FRAUD)

Robert Heinlein: SECRECY IS THE HALLMARK OF TYRANNY!

#20    regeneratia

regeneratia

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,606 posts
  • Joined:20 Jun 2010
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:All my posts are my own views, my own perceptions. Will not be finding links for why I think the way I do.

  • It is time to put the big guns down now, Little Boys!

Posted 15 January 2011 - 02:30 AM

View PostCopasetic, on 15 January 2011 - 02:29 AM, said:

I'm sorry, I'm really tired and I'm not following your story-Could you clarify it?


Nah, maybe if you get some rest, and reread, ... if you care about this. I am tired too.

Truth is such a rare quality, a stranger so seldom met in this civilization of fraud, that it is never received freely, but must fight its way into the world
Professor Hilton Hotema
(quote from THE BIBLE FRAUD)

Robert Heinlein: SECRECY IS THE HALLMARK OF TYRANNY!

#21    Copasetic

Copasetic

    438579088 what am I?

  • Member
  • 4,237 posts
  • Joined:12 Apr 2008
  • Gender:Male

Posted 15 January 2011 - 02:55 AM

View Postregeneratia, on 15 January 2011 - 02:29 AM, said:

I honestly do NOT believe that fluoridating the water is safe. There is solid research out there that tells us that it gives children ADHD. There is a lot of research out there on the health hazards of fluoridating tap water. All ya have to do is look, desire to know the truth, and remain objective.


I've looked at the research, both for and against with a medical schools resources to obtaining that research as well. We don't have much choice, nutrition and public health gets covered in your first set of case-clinical reasoning groups and teeth development, cavities etc (I know right? I was mean, what did I sign up for I don't want to be a dentist!) get covered extensively in histology and cell biology, micro-anatomy and gross anatomy.

View Postregeneratia, on 15 January 2011 - 02:30 AM, said:

Nah, maybe if you get some rest, and reread, ... if you care about this. I am tired too.


I meant a couple parts of your story, for instance here you say;

Quote

I tried to alert local officials at the city level that this was happening to my child.

That what was happening to your child?

Then you say;

Quote

one man who could reduce the fluoride levels in tap water without calling public attention to it, and that was the ave.

How? And what do you mean by he could reduce levels without "calling attention"?

Then later you say;

Quote

said they were already at the bottom levels possible

What do you mean by bottom levels? Virtually all water has trace fluoride in it, making "pure" H2O is neigh impossible (well not necessarily, its just insanely ridiculous and insanely expensive and drinking "pure" H2O wouldn't be that good for you anyway).

Then you said;

Quote

that the fluoride company he bought fluoride from had recently doubled the price of fluoride.

Which makes it sound as if he is adding fluoride, why does he need to buy it if he is trying to remove it?

See what I mean? Could you clarify those points?

Edited by Copasetic, 15 January 2011 - 02:56 AM.


#22    Stellar

Stellar

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 14,903 posts
  • Joined:27 Apr 2004
  • Gender:Male

  • The objective of war is not to die for your country. It's to make the other son of a b**** die for his!
    -Patton

Posted 15 January 2011 - 05:10 AM

[quote]
Nor did I suggest that, that would be a strawman Stellar, you're better than that. The salt was an example for someone who might not be familiar with chemistry. Its easy for the names of chemicals to start sounding scary to people with little experience in chemistry or biology.
[/quote]

I see. I thought that was what you were suggesting... that since Sodium is dangerous but Salt is not, Fluoride (element) is dangerous but NaF is not. I think, when people are referring to "Fluorinated water" they are referring to the compound in water, and they believe that is dangerous... I dont think anyone here is basing their opinions on the element being dangerous.

[quote]
As I pointed out above, it is a cost effective and safe public health option.
[/quote]

And as I pointed out, I don't necessarily trust the officials to tell me what is safe and what is not. They can say its safe all they want, but I've learnt in the past 23 years of my life that these "experts" in all areas are not as incorruptible and not all as competant and error-free as I'd like them to be.

[quote]
If you are very concerned, many states the choice is left up to the county. If your county adds fluoride to the water you can see that here at the CDC's website, simply click on your state on the map and pick out where you live.
[/quote]

I don't live in the US.

While this whole "a little bit is ok" business may suit you, I see that this "little bit" has the potential to cause some damage to my body. Chances are it doesnt cause anything significant, perhaps, but I'd just rather not be force medicated.

Personally, I believe in medication when it is required. I am against today's "drugs are the answer to everything" mentality. I, personally, believe that all these pills and chemicals in todays society that we deem 'safe' may indeed have side effects that we do not realize, no matter how much some corporation/department says its safe. Do I have hard evidence of this? No. There have been cases when certain pills/chemicals were once though safe and then turned out to be dangerous though, and as such, I want to make the decisions as to whether to pollute my body with something someone tells me is "safe" or not.

[quote]

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."

----Seraphina

#23    Stellar

Stellar

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 14,903 posts
  • Joined:27 Apr 2004
  • Gender:Male

  • The objective of war is not to die for your country. It's to make the other son of a b**** die for his!
    -Patton

Posted 15 January 2011 - 05:15 AM

I mean, I also find it slightly fishy that the government seems to purposely fluoridate our water "for our benifit"... yet avoids purposely adding vitamins to it, or anything else "medicinal".

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."

----Seraphina

#24    WoIverine

WoIverine

    Telekinetic

  • Member
  • 6,736 posts
  • Joined:16 Sep 2008
  • Gender:Male

  • With great power, comes great irresponsibility.

Posted 15 January 2011 - 10:06 AM

View PostStellar, on 15 January 2011 - 05:15 AM, said:

I mean, I also find it slightly fishy that the government seems to purposely fluoridate our water "for our benifit"... yet avoids purposely adding vitamins to it, or anything else "medicinal".

Agreed, dumping all the flouride into water supplys is probably cheaper than properly disposing of it. I'd be all for mineral water though!  :tu:


#25    Stellar

Stellar

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 14,903 posts
  • Joined:27 Apr 2004
  • Gender:Male

  • The objective of war is not to die for your country. It's to make the other son of a b**** die for his!
    -Patton

Posted 15 January 2011 - 06:42 PM

Quote

Agreed, dumping all the flouride into water supplys is probably cheaper than properly disposing of it. I'd be all for mineral water though!

Well, there's all sorts of minerals in tap water already, depending on what water source you're drinking from.

"I refuse to have a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent."

----Seraphina

#26    Br Cornelius

Br Cornelius

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 11,921 posts
  • Joined:13 Aug 2008
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Eire

  • Stupid Monkeys.

    Life Sucks.
    Get over it.

Posted 15 January 2011 - 06:48 PM

View PostStellar, on 15 January 2011 - 06:42 PM, said:

Well, there's all sorts of minerals in tap water already, depending on what water source you're drinking from.
There are even some with Fluoride - which they have to take out.

Br Cornelius

I believe nothing, but I have my suspicions.

Robert Anton Wilson

#27    regeneratia

regeneratia

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,606 posts
  • Joined:20 Jun 2010
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:All my posts are my own views, my own perceptions. Will not be finding links for why I think the way I do.

  • It is time to put the big guns down now, Little Boys!

Posted 15 January 2011 - 11:40 PM

View PostCopasetic, on 15 January 2011 - 02:55 AM, said:

I've looked at the research, both for and against with a medical schools resources to obtaining that research as well. We don't have much choice, nutrition and public health gets covered in your first set of case-clinical reasoning groups and teeth development, cavities etc (I know right? I was mean, what did I sign up for I don't want to be a dentist!) get covered extensively in histology and cell biology, micro-anatomy and gross anatomy.




I meant a couple parts of your story, for instance here you say;



That what was happening to your child?

Then you say;



How? And what do you mean by he could reduce levels without "calling attention"?

Then later you say;



What do you mean by bottom levels? Virtually all water has trace fluoride in it, making "pure" H2O is neigh impossible (well not necessarily, its just insanely ridiculous and insanely expensive and drinking "pure" H2O wouldn't be that good for you anyway).

Then you said;


Which makes it sound as if he is adding fluoride, why does he need to buy it if he is trying to remove it?

See what I mean? Could you clarify those points?

I don't know of you really did any research on it or not. Nothing that you have written indicates that you have.

I remain in my stance and acknowledge that you have your own opinion on this.

For all those who like to do their own objective research on it, there is a massive amount of information on this. And they do not agree with copacetic.

Lower perimeters of the recommended ... oh who cares?! You are not changing what I think. I like my ability to assess situations and they are unchallenged by no one but myself, as I take in more information and adjust to the knowledge base I get outside this site.

Reminding you all that, according to the CDC, you are not to use tap water in baby formula.

And my opinion, a solid opinion on this, that you would be wise to eliminate fluoridated tap water from your oral consumption routine.

I am only here to put my two cents out there.

"Stellar Icon

Posted Yesterday, 11:15 PM
I mean, I also find it slightly fishy that the government seems to purposely fluoridate our water "for our benifit"... yet avoids purposely adding vitamins to it, or anything else "medicinal".
"

Yes, I am pretty sure our own government is lacking in ultimate altruism at almost all levels of government.

The teeth are the easiest body parts to replace. You cannot say that about a liver or kidney.
I think there should be more concern about what the oral consumption of fluoride does to the body's soft tissue, the liver that has to process it, and the kidneys that have to filter it. The liver does over 110 functions that we know of in the body. Unless there is some strange act of some strange god, you only get one liver. Respect it!! Demand respect for it!!

Edited by regeneratia, 15 January 2011 - 11:41 PM.

Truth is such a rare quality, a stranger so seldom met in this civilization of fraud, that it is never received freely, but must fight its way into the world
Professor Hilton Hotema
(quote from THE BIBLE FRAUD)

Robert Heinlein: SECRECY IS THE HALLMARK OF TYRANNY!

#28    regeneratia

regeneratia

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,606 posts
  • Joined:20 Jun 2010
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:All my posts are my own views, my own perceptions. Will not be finding links for why I think the way I do.

  • It is time to put the big guns down now, Little Boys!

Posted 15 January 2011 - 11:47 PM

View PostCopasetic, on 15 January 2011 - 02:05 AM, said:

Yes, public health wise it is an easy and practical fix for a whole nation. Much as its easy for doctors to tell pregnant women to take folic acid rather than test all pregnant women for mutations in genes like dihydrofolate reductase.

Are there a small percentage of people it may not be beneficial too? Yes, possibly just as there is a small percentage of women that folate vitamins have adverse affects on.

In any sufficiently large and varied population, there are always going to be data-outliers which don't benefit from certain public health choices. The trick is to find a means to identify them early before harm could be done.

The evidence for safer, more available and more cost effective ways to ensure fluoride is adequately used to prevent dental caries is essentially non-existent. At current, in terms of public health, fluoridated water is the most effective.

I would ask you what evidence there is for the fluoridation of teeth, but I don't like to give my evidence either, citing that it isn't worth the time it take to provide it since there is no real assurance that anyone will look at it.

So I say, be careful with "evidence indicates" phrases.

Edited by regeneratia, 15 January 2011 - 11:50 PM.

Truth is such a rare quality, a stranger so seldom met in this civilization of fraud, that it is never received freely, but must fight its way into the world
Professor Hilton Hotema
(quote from THE BIBLE FRAUD)

Robert Heinlein: SECRECY IS THE HALLMARK OF TYRANNY!

#29    DieChecker

DieChecker

    I'm a Rogue Scholar

  • Member
  • 20,649 posts
  • Joined:21 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Portland, Oregon, USA

  • Hey, I'm not wrong. I'm just not completely right.

Posted 16 January 2011 - 12:02 AM

After reading about this in several threads, I've come to my own opinion that water should not be floridated. If children need floride to strengthen their teeth, they should have it perscribed by their doctor or dentist.

That said, floridated water is like anything else. It depends on the quanitity taken in. Taking just a single adult iron pill can make a young child die. Does that mean outlawing iron pills. No, it means we need to be responsible in how it is delivered. Some people do drink 10 liters of water a day, and so could have issues with floride. Floridating by the tap water is not a measured system, any individual can take any amount.

I'm not anti-floride. I am just against this unmeasured system of delivery.

Here at Intel we make processors on 12 inch wafers. And, the individual processors on the wafers are called die. And, I am employed to check these die. That is why I am the DieChecker.

At times one remains faithful to a cause only because its opponents do not cease to be insipid. - Friedrich Nietzsche

Qualifications? This is cryptozoology, dammit! All that is required is the spirit of adventure. - Night Walker

#30    regeneratia

regeneratia

    Alien Abducter

  • Member
  • 4,606 posts
  • Joined:20 Jun 2010
  • Gender:Female
  • Location:All my posts are my own views, my own perceptions. Will not be finding links for why I think the way I do.

  • It is time to put the big guns down now, Little Boys!

Posted 16 January 2011 - 12:28 AM

Xiang Q, Liang Y, Chen B, 2010 Serum Fluoride Level and Children's Intelligence Quotient in Two Villages in China. Environ Health Perspect doi:10.1289/ehp.1003171

http://www.environme...05wangetal.html

http://www.cdc.gov/f...ant_formula.htm

http://www.cdc.gov/n...briefs/db53.htm

http://www.fluoridea...l-fluorosis.htm
http://www.fluoridea...th/sitemap.html


http://www2.fluoride...-IQ-in-Children
(this is naturally occurring fluoride)
---------------------------

http://www.fluoridealert.org/health/
"FLUORIDE & the KIDNEYS (Click for more detail)

    The kidneys play a vital role in preventing the build-up of excessive fluoride in the body. Among healthy individuals, the kidneys excrete approximately 50% of the daily fluoride intake. However, among individuals with kidney disease, the kidneys' ability to excrete becomes markedly impaired, resulting in a build-up of fluoride within the body.

    It is well recognized that individuals with kidney disease have a heightened susceptibility to the cumulative toxic effects of fluoride.

    Of particular concern is the potential for fluoride, when accumulated in the skeletal system, to cause, or exacerbate, renal osteodystrophy - a bone disease commonly found among people with advanced kidney disease.

    In addition, fluoride has been definitively shown to poison kidney function at high doses over short-term exposures in both animals and humans. The impact of low doses of fluoride, given over long periods of time, has been inadequately studied. A recent animal study, conducted by scientists at the US Environmental Protection Agency (Varner 1998), reported that exposure to just 1 ppm fluoride caused kidney damage in rats if they drank the water for an extended period of time, while a new study from China found an increased rate of kidney disease among humans consuming more than 2 ppm (Liu 2005). Hence, the adverse effects to kidney function that fluoride causes at high doses over short periods of time, may also be replicated with small doses if consumed over long periods of time."
----------------
http://www.fluoridea...rain/index.html

"Fluoride's ability to damage the brain represents one of the most active areas of research on fluoride toxicity today.

Concern about fluoride's impact on the brain has been fueled by 18 human studies (from China, Mexico, India, and Iran) reporting IQ deficits among children exposed to excess fluoride, by 4 human studies indicating that fluoride can enter, and damage, the fetal brain; and by a growing number of animal studies finding damage to brain tissue (at levels as low as 1 ppm) and impairment of learning and memory among fluoride-treated groups.

According to the US National Research Council, "it is apparent that fluorides have the ability to interfere with the functions of the brain." "
-----------

"FLUORIDE & TOOTH DECAY (Caries) (Click for more detail)

    According to the current consensus view of the dental research community, fluoride's primary - if not sole - benefit to teeth comes from TOPICAL application to the exterior surface of teeth, not from ingestion.

    Perhaps not surprisingly, therefore, tooth decay rates have declined at similar rates in all western countries in the latter half of the 20th century - irrespective of whether the country fluoridates its water or not. Today, tooth decay rates throughout continental western Europe are as low as the tooth decay rates in the United States - despite a profound disparity in water fluoridation prevalence in the two regions.

    Within countries that fluoridate their water, recent large-scale surveys of dental health - utilizing modern scientific methods not employed in the early surveys from the 1930s-1950s - have found little difference in tooth decay, including "baby bottle tooth decay", between fluoridated and unfluoridated communities."

Edited by regeneratia, 16 January 2011 - 12:36 AM.

Truth is such a rare quality, a stranger so seldom met in this civilization of fraud, that it is never received freely, but must fight its way into the world
Professor Hilton Hotema
(quote from THE BIBLE FRAUD)

Robert Heinlein: SECRECY IS THE HALLMARK OF TYRANNY!




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users