290 replies to this topic

[the L]

www.todayszaman.com said:

"...However, its real significance went unnoticed until we went there. Not only did we stumble upon fragments of large sculptures but we also realized that the mound is artificial; it was quite obvious that this couldn’t be a natural hill. The whole place was also covered in flint chunks and chips, stone tools and traces of human activity.Some small mounds of rock and debris show tool marks. One large piece of limestone looked very familiar -- it resembled the T-shaped head of pillars I knew from Nevali Çori, an Early Neolithic place some kilometers to the north, where I worked in an excavation project before.

Read more...

[Mentalcase]

Nice article the L.

I was curious about the picture in this article. I noticed a comment on the bottom of the page that suggests the pic isn't from Gobekli.

[ShadowSot]

Mentalcase, on 28 January 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

Nice article the L.

I was curious about the picture in this article. I noticed a comment on the bottom of the page that suggests the pic isn't from Gobekli.

I don't think it is, this is the sites... er... website.
I'm not seeing anything that's similar in structure, but I'm not familiar with the site.
It certainly looks later.

[Mentalcase]

ShadowSot, on 28 January 2011 - 09:16 PM, said:

I don't think it is, this is the sites... er... website.
I'm not seeing anything that's similar in structure, but I'm not familiar with the site.
It certainly looks later.

I was thinking the same thing. It does loosely exhibit the same type of design, like a totem pole of sorts.

Quote

The reliefs on the pillars include foxes, lions, cattle, wild boars, wild asses, herons, ducks, scorpions, ants, spiders, many snakes, and a very few anthropomorphic figures. Some of the reliefs have been deliberately erased, maybe in preparation for new designs. There are freestanding sculptures as well that may represent wild boars or foxes. As they are heavily encrusted with lime, it is sometimes difficult to tell. Comparable statues have been discovered at Nevalı Çori and Nahal Hemar.

Source

[SlimJim22]

Always love this one. Cheers The L..

What we Know About Gobekli Tepe

a. Gobekli Tepe is located in the northern end of the fertile crescent. During the time the structures were built, the climate was very mild and wildlife was abundant.

b. The site is huge. There are around 20 groups of pillars, each group ranging from 30 to 90 feet across. The largest of the stone pillars are 16 feet tall, weighing nearly 10 tons. The site was constructed over several hundred, perhaps several thousand years.

c. Radiocarbon dating places the age of these buildings at around 12,000 years old, which is several thousand years older than any previously discovered complex structures (the Egyptian pyramids and Stonehenge are around 5,000 years old).

d. The symbols on the pillars “are decorated with carved reliefs of animals and of abstract pictograms … very carefully carved reliefs depict lions, bulls, boars, foxes, gazelles, asses, snakes and other reptiles, insects, arachnids, and birds, particularly vultures and water fowl.” [Source]

e. It was buried under 15,000 cubic feet of soil, which is the area displaced by the Big Ben clock tower. Clearly, the burial of these structures was as much of a ‘team effort’ as their construction.

Gobekli Tepe was buried under around 15,000 cubic feet of soil, which would require a level of coordination and effort on par with creating the site in the first place.

There are two likely reasons for the burial:

a. They may have been buried in order to protect them, as most other motives could be satisfied by a combination of toppling, smashing and burial.

b. Burying the stones may have been a religious practice, as part of a death or burial ritual.

Arguing in favor of protecting the site is possible conflict with a nearby agricultural settlement at Cayonu, which is believed to be the place where pigs were domesticated and several early grain crops were first planted.

Darker events were also afoot at Caynou: “Archaeologists … unearthed a hoard of human skulls. They were found under an altar-like slab, stained with human blood.[T]his may be the earliest evidence for human sacrifice: one of the most inexplicable of human behaviours and one that could have evolved only in the face of terrible societal stress … victims were killed in huge death pits, children were buried alive in jars, others roasted in vast bronze bowls.” [Source]

It is possible that Gobekli Tepe was considered sacred, or was threatened in some way by the rise of agricultural civilization.


http://www.erikorgan...g-gobekli-tepe/

The article does get a bit more speculative but heh... Something crazy was going down in this place and it doesn't fit with any recognized timeline to my knowledge.

The article argues that conflict between hunter-gatherers and farmers was occuring at this time. Surprisingly they say farming was a much harder way of life to that of the idyllic life of the hunter-gatherer. Good article imo.

[the L]

Slim did you think that I would post something that isnt good?

well that happend too.

It is interesting site. Still lot to read about it. Still lot to discover there imo.

Thanks guys.

Edited by the L, 28 January 2011 - 10:58 PM.

[the L]

Shadowsot it looks later I agree but I didnt find anywhere that is written that "T" is from another date. Or I miss something.
I realy wonder who built that?
I will read it again maybe I skip something.

This is interesting:

"Those T-shaped pillars are 3 to 6 meters high in size, and weigh anything between 40 to 60 tonnes each. Even with today’s technology one would need very specialized equipment to move that stuff. In human terms it is roughly estimated that a minimum of 500 bodies might pull it off. But in a world of chaos and self-preservation how were these people organised, and by whom? Then again, it seems somehow they knew, and were coached to achieve this monumental task of transporting and sequencing these megaliths in specific order. There had to be quarrying experts, transport specialists, planners, ritual overseers etc. According to archeologists this kind of organization could have only existed in a society which already had established a solid system and a sound hierarchy."

From shadowsots link.

How can this be 12000-10000 BC ?picture

Mentalcase, on 28 January 2011 - 08:46 PM, said:

Nice article the L.

I was curious about the picture in this article. I noticed a comment on the bottom of the page that suggests the pic isn't from Gobekli.

"It is certainly not from Göbekli, not from southeastern Anatolia and not from the Neolithics - but a Hittite monument from central Anatolia. I forgot the name, unfortunately."

I guess picture from article isnt from Göbekli, But chesk Shadowsot sites gallery.

Edited by the L, 29 January 2011 - 03:25 PM.

[the L]

SlimJim22, on 28 January 2011 - 09:47 PM, said:

The symbols on the pillars “are decorated with carved reliefs of animals and of abstract pictograms … very carefully carved reliefs depict lions, bulls, boars, foxes, gazelles, asses, snakes and other reptiles, insects, arachnids, and birds, particularly vultures and water fowl.”

Wow. Looks awesome.

Anyways, if informations what we find so far are true , it is realy interesting site.
Imagine in period 12 000 - 10 000 BC we find first traces of war in northen Sudan, it is a time when Mammoth and Sabretooth become extinted (?),it apears settlements in Argentina,Chile,Japan, Jericho was started to build, Bering bridge was no longer bridge, sea level rise...It is even before dog was domasticated.

Edited by the L, 29 January 2011 - 03:46 PM.

[ShadowSot]

Quote

How can this be 12000-10000 BC

Not that hard to carve, and we know that the early hunter gathers created a good bit of artwork.
Gobekli Tepe is simply the earliest evidence where we can see they pulled together and started to get organized.

[the L]

ShadowSot, on 29 January 2011 - 03:51 PM, said:

Not that hard to carve, and we know that the early hunter gathers created a good bit of artwork.
Gobekli Tepe is simply the earliest evidence where we can see they pulled together and started to get organized.

Yes. It must be organization there. But it is impresive.Anyways I read recently that first traces of agriculture we can find 9500 BC in todays Syria. So is there traces  of agriculture when they talk about conflict between farmers and hunters?

[the L]

I wonder if is it first temple ,can we talk about first religon?

Edited by the L, 29 January 2011 - 05:07 PM.

[jules99]

the L, on 29 January 2011 - 04:01 PM, said:

Yes. It must be organization there. But it is impresive.Anyways I read recently that first traces of agriculture we can find 9500 BC in todays Syria. So is there traces  of agriculture when they talk about conflict between farmers and hunters?

Hi the L;
One thing has always bugged me about the so called builders of Gobekli Tepe being called hunter gathers. Wouldnt hunting and gathering take up most of their time and just where did pick up the stone mason/carving skills from. Its a big step from flint knapping.
Interesting site and thread thanks.

[ChewiesArmy]

News like this makes me wonder, what do we really understand about our history? It seems as soon as archeologists state that 'x' happened during a certain age, they find out that 'x' happened before they thought.

[ShadowSot]

That's why archaeologists don't state definites, they state "the earliest evidence for x is..."

[the L]

First evidence of x. In this case x is:

1.first temple
2.maybe first religion
3.maybe first agriculture
4.maybe first megalithic structure


I mean it was 7000 years before Stonehenge.