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Göbekli Tepe-10 000 BC


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#256    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 09:51 AM

Also cormac you might say that they were not called Illyrians. But Minoans were not called Minoans. That doesnt mean they didnt exist.
Also why they need to gather into on giant empire. Illyrian kingdom might be small empire. That way we shouldnt called Greeks citiy states civilization at all because they were not empire and/or they didnt have central power (If except Alexander state). But also Illyrians were united against Romans. Resisting 60 years to them. If they were not organized then how did they resist for so long. Even Augustus was wounded in Illyria. As Jay pointed out (as my idea) maybe Romans wipe their records.

Liburnians were masters of all Adriatic sea. They have had colonies in todays Italy. They were matriarch society. They built cities. You can called them Liburni as Romans did or whatever but they were there. Fact is that we called them Illyrians today as group name for people in southeast Europe doesnt mean they must be united in one empire.
In fact there were numerous recorded Illryrian wars between themselves.

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#257    TheSearcher

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:05 PM

View Postthe L, on 20 February 2013 - 09:30 AM, said:

1st empire in world wasnt been civilization?
People who introduce to us iron age were...what are Hittites then?

As long as you do not understand the distinction between culture and civilization, it's useless to discuss this with you. You have made abundantly clear in other threads, that in fact, you don't want to be corrected or thought anything by us.

Edit : typo

Edited by TheSearcher, 20 February 2013 - 12:50 PM.

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#258    docyabut2

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 12:24 PM

Despite theft, site open to visitors

Unfortunately, Göbekli Tepe hit the news late last year because a 40-centimeter-high, T-shaped stela with a human head above and animal figure below was stolen from the site. Professor Schmidt has no idea why anyone would want to take it. The site was briefly closed to the public but security has been improved: there’s now a gate to the site, which is opened in the morning and closed at night, and also a camera system in place. As a result of increasing interest in Göbekli Tepe, both local and foreign, there are plans for a visitor’s center and a presentation of the site for the general public.


http://www.todayszam...-ancestors.html


To bad this stela was stolen, the human head would have given a face to who these people were,and its not this face.
The cream-coloured effigy was found in the ancient Kurdish city of Sanliurfa, in the hot plains of central southern Turkey, not far from the extraordinary archaeological dig of Gobekli Tepe.

http://www.theliving...i_Tepe_003.html

Edited by docyabut2, 20 February 2013 - 12:36 PM.


#259    TheSearcher

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:11 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 20 February 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

Despite theft, site open to visitors

Unfortunately, Göbekli Tepe hit the news late last year because a 40-centimeter-high, T-shaped stela with a human head above and animal figure below was stolen from the site. Professor Schmidt has no idea why anyone would want to take it. The site was briefly closed to the public but security has been improved: there’s now a gate to the site, which is opened in the morning and closed at night, and also a camera system in place. As a result of increasing interest in Göbekli Tepe, both local and foreign, there are plans for a visitor’s center and a presentation of the site for the general public.


http://www.todayszam...-ancestors.html


To bad this stela was stolen, the human head would have given a face to who these people were,and its not this face.
The cream-coloured effigy was found in the ancient Kurdish city of Sanliurfa, in the hot plains of central southern Turkey, not far from the extraordinary archaeological dig of Gobekli Tepe.

http://www.theliving...i_Tepe_003.html

It's a sad truth, but this kind of thing happens wherever there is a dig. Security needs to be stepped up because artefacts are stolen.

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#260    docyabut2

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 01:30 PM

View PostTheSearcher, on 20 February 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

It's a sad truth, but this kind of thing happens wherever there is a dig. Security needs to be stepped up because artefacts are stolen.

You`d think there would have been a picture taken before the stela was stolen, to show the public.


#261    cormac mac airt

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:14 PM

View Postthe L, on 20 February 2013 - 09:51 AM, said:

Also cormac you might say that they were not called Illyrians. But Minoans were not called Minoans. That doesnt mean they didnt exist.
Also why they need to gather into on giant empire. Illyrian kingdom might be small empire. That way we shouldnt called Greeks citiy states civilization at all because they were not empire and/or they didnt have central power (If except Alexander state). But also Illyrians were united against Romans. Resisting 60 years to them. If they were not organized then how did they resist for so long. Even Augustus was wounded in Illyria. As Jay pointed out (as my idea) maybe Romans wipe their records.

Liburnians were masters of all Adriatic sea. They have had colonies in todays Italy. They were matriarch society. They built cities. You can called them Liburni as Romans did or whatever but they were there. Fact is that we called them Illyrians today as group name for people in southeast Europe doesnt mean they must be united in one empire.
In fact there were numerous recorded Illryrian wars between themselves.

I never said they didn't exist, but you've made it obvious that you don't remotely understand the distinction between a tribe or tribes, a culture, a civilization and an empire. Until such time as you do it's pointless to continue this discussion. Each one is a different level of socio-political, economic and religious complexity. And much like your use of 'civilization', the Illyrians were never an 'empire'. Repeating it doesn't make it true.

cormac

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#262    third_eye

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:35 PM

nomadic cultures leaves very little evidence of their civilized nature behind, but since they don't build cities it means they were never a civilization ?

the Mongols were nomadic and had an empire, very big one too. Wouldn't call them 'just' a tribe either.

~edit :
Apologies to Sir cormac

this is an open ended query, was open to both sides of the debate, want to know what each sides thinks.
Was not a query direct to you ...

Edited by third_eye, 20 February 2013 - 04:37 PM.

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#263    Jeremiah65

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:46 PM

I think with Gobekli-Tepe we are seeing foundation stones being laid...the foundation of community, agriculture and commerce...it is...by nature...a foggy thing to reflect upon...it is the beginning of the world we know.  I hold this as one of the most fascinating sites I have ever had the pleasure of reading about.  I know, South America has some fascinating and "enigmatic" sites...but none blow me away like Gobekli-Tepe does.  I think as the exploration and research continues, there are still profound things yet to be discovered there...and I find it exciting.

We know that the site is only something like 10 to 15% excavated....what other wonders and enigmas are yet to be unearthed?  I think it is wonderful and amazing and I give kudos to science overall to be able to step back and gather itself in the face of these dicoveries...awesomeness....pure awesomeness....to quote an archaeologist in reference to the site "it has overturned the cart and forces us to re-examine the history of civilization"...how cool is that?

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#264    cormac mac airt

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 04:57 PM

View Postthird_eye, on 20 February 2013 - 04:35 PM, said:

nomadic cultures leaves very little evidence of their civilized nature behind, but since they don't build cities it means they were never a civilization ?

the Mongols were nomadic and had an empire, very big one too. Wouldn't call them 'just' a tribe either.

~edit :
Apologies to Sir cormac

this is an open ended query, was open to both sides of the debate, want to know what each sides thinks.
Was not a query direct to you ...

Building cities is one of the prerequisites. Since they didn't meet the criteria for a civilization then no, they couldn't be called one. Which means that size alone isn't a qualifying factor. And the comparatively miniscule kingdoms of the Illyrians pale in comparison to the enoumous size of the Mongol Empire, which around the mid 1200's AD comprised most of Asia. The Mongol Empire was a true empire, unlike the Illyrian Kingdoms.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#265    Everdred

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 05:43 PM

I think it's a bit silly to say the V. Gordon Childe's criteria for defining a civilization are an unassailable fact.  There are lots of different definitions that have emerged in the field of anthropology, with distinct variances between the different branches.  Instead of simply dismissing the L as ignorant of the meaning, you should discuss the merits of Childe's definition versus other definitions, and then try to come to an agreement on criteria before arguing about which cultures deserve the label.

Also I'd love to hear the reasoning for why a culture using a borrowed system of writing can't be a civilization.


#266    cormac mac airt

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:13 PM

It's sillier to complain about a definition for the word "civilization" that didn't originate at UM to begin with. Nor is it anyone's responsibility at UM to create a definition that's more palatable to those who don't like the one presented.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#267    Big Bad Voodoo

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 06:45 PM

cormac just answer me then this question, you dont see Hittites and Akkadian empire as civilization? Because of origin of their writting system.

View PostTheSearcher, on 20 February 2013 - 12:05 PM, said:

You have made abundantly clear in other threads, that in fact, you don't want to be corrected or thought anything by us.


?
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Edited by the L, 20 February 2013 - 06:45 PM.

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For we are opposed around the world by a monolithic and ruthless conspiracy..."

#268    cormac mac airt

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 07:00 PM

View Postthe L, on 20 February 2013 - 06:45 PM, said:

cormac just answer me then this question, you dont see Hittites and Akkadian empire as civilization? Because of origin of their writting system.



?
Is everything good Searcher?

On this I see them as distinct cultures, but not civilizations in their own right.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#269    TheSearcher

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Posted 20 February 2013 - 10:51 PM

View Postdocyabut2, on 20 February 2013 - 01:30 PM, said:

You`d think there would have been a picture taken before the stela was stolen, to show the public.

There probably have been some taken. They just may not have been published to the grant public like ourselves.

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Publilius Syrus.

So god made me an atheist. Who are you to question his wisdom?!

#270    Harsh86_Patel

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Posted 21 February 2013 - 06:31 AM

View PostTheSearcher, on 18 February 2013 - 08:52 AM, said:

Sorry but I disagree here.  Mehrgarh is seen as a precursor to IVC, quite rightly. However, the period of which we talk, the Mehrgarh of Period I, from 7000 BCE to 5500 BCE (periods established by archaeologists), was Neolithic and aceramic, meaning without the use of pottery. The earliest farming in the area was developed by semi-nomadic people, living in simple mud buildings.  It was far from the already well established city/civilization, that you seem to believe it was.

I grant that Mehrgarh is the earliest known precursor of the IVC, but we are still left with 1000 years in between Göbekli Tepe's burying of the temple and Mehrgarh. Then there is also the distance factor, nearly 4000 miles, in those times, that's quite a stretch.
The IVC might have been more widespread than previously thought, yes, but that still does not make it possible, the timing and distance just don't work.

Like I said, I can conceive the possibility of some influence from Göbekli Tepe towards Mehrgarh, not the other way around.
Ok point well received and all i can say at this point is more digs to be done and more sites to be rediscovered.Though i have a very strong feeling that the antiquity of the IVC will be pushed further back and the connections between the two sites will be established further down the line.





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