122 replies to this topic

[Paranoid Android]

AZDZ, on 11 February 2011 - 05:15 PM, said:

"not referring to non-believers" How can that be? The context of the following verses is clearly all about the non-believers being defined as antichrist.

1 Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

While false teachers may also in included, I cannot accept they are the only ones these texts are describing.

Each quote clearly identifies believers within the Christian community who have picked up false teachings.  1 John 2:19 states "they went out from us, but they were not of us".  1 John 4 extends from chapter 2.  Moving into 2 John, and the text reads that many deceivers "have gone out into the world".  By stating "have gone out", the implication is that such deceivers came from within the church to begin with (as opposed to someone "coming in" or "remaining outside" to corrupt the teaching).  

This is a relatively new understanding I have from the Bible (if you had asked me a month or so ago, I probably would have sided with you in addressing who "antichrist" referred to), but particularly considering the implication of 2 John terms of "going out", it seems that these passages are referring to those believers within the community who "go out" and preach a false gospel.  Whether 1 John, 2 John, 2 Thessalonians, or Revelation, the context of "false teachings" and "false teachers" seems to be a clear and present issue to deal with.  

Just a thought,

[Beckys_Mom]

The anti christ may have appeared in an episode of Supernatural  lol

[AZDZ]

Paranoid Android, on 11 February 2011 - 05:57 PM, said:

Each quote clearly identifies believers within the Christian community who have picked up false teachings.  1 John 2:19 states "they went out from us, but they were not of us".  1 John 4 extends from chapter 2.  Moving into 2 John, and the text reads that many deceivers "have gone out into the world".  By stating "have gone out", the implication is that such deceivers came from within the church to begin with (as opposed to someone "coming in" or "remaining outside" to corrupt the teaching).  

This is a relatively new understanding I have from the Bible (if you had asked me a month or so ago, I probably would have sided with you in addressing who "antichrist" referred to), but particularly considering the implication of 2 John terms of "going out", it seems that these passages are referring to those believers within the community who "go out" and preach a false gospel.  Whether 1 John, 2 John, 2 Thessalonians, or Revelation, the context of "false teachings" and "false teachers" seems to be a clear and present issue to deal with.  

Just a thought,

As I said, I agree false teachers may be included, that is where the "have went out from us" come's in but I cannot, in good faith, simply dismiss the clearly spoken language of the quoted verses based on 1 Jn 2:29. Lets look at them again.

1 Jn 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.

1 Jn 4:3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

2 Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

This language to me is accusing, besides false teachers, anyone who does as the text says, denies Jesus Christ is God come in the flesh. It couldn't be any clearer, imo. In fact, given the Bibles usual nature of being cryptic, the clarity and frankness of these verses is kinda startling.

edit: tags fixed.

Edited by AZDZ, 11 February 2011 - 06:57 PM.

[stevefork]

Christ means "annointed one", meaning you are chosen to rule over a kingdom. That is applied to kings in monarchical system of ruling and in this case in the middle east thousands of years before jesus was born. It only means that Jesus or yeshua is a direct descendant of king David and that under the monarchical system he inherits the right to rule the jewish people of Judah and Israel. The jews at the time of Jesus' birth were colonized and subdued by Romans and they believed in a myth through oral communication passed down through the ages that their kingdom, the Jewish kingdom, can be revived again with all its might as it were during the time of their great kings. So to make the story, antichrist means, is a person or persons who do not believe or is against an annointed leader who would rule over a certain group of people.
Anyone who has read the history of how the United States of America declared its independence over England, would understand the argument of the founding fathers as to why they abhored the monarchical system of government, which by this time was considered to be immoral by all sense of reason. To read Thomas Paine's pamphlet "Common sense" and "Rights of man", one would immediately understand through his writings why inheriting a throne and leadership over people is not the ideals of true democracy. Under a true democracy, any man has the right to become leader through an elective process were the people will decide based on that persons merits rather than just inheriting it by lieu of lineage, which by all reason is just plain ridiculous. The idea that one family would rule the land for eternity is just unimaginable. But unfortunately in ancient times, that was the case and that was the accepted norm. So in introspect, an antichrist is really someone who doesnt believe in inherited power or the annointed one, which by todays standard, i would say, the vast majority of the world. People of the modern era living in a democratic system of government is in effect an antichrist.

[scepticalbeliever]

Paranoid Android, on 11 February 2011 - 07:54 AM, said:

Biblical answer:

~ 2 Thesallonians refers to a "man of lawlessness" who will try to set himself up as God.

~ Revelation refers to a "false prophet" who will do the work of "the beast".

~ 1 and 2 John refers to "many antichrists" who have come.

Conclusion:  There is not much we can do to identify the false prophet or the man of lawlessness.  Considering the texts they were found in, I would make the argument that they represent a concept rather than a specific person.  1 and 2 John is quite clear though, and refers again to a concept about the "antichrist".  He states that there are many "deceivers" who have gone out in the world to drag people away from the truth of Jesus.  The context implies the deceivers are professing Christians who don't actually preach the true message (it is not referring to non-Christians).  Thus any false teacher who brings false teachings can be said to be one among the "many antichrists" who have come.

Hope this helps

~ Regards, PA

A lawless man or lawless man as in mankind

Man setting himself up as God  POPE close enough with all the ring kissing or hand kissing whatever.

Man setting himself up as God could it be science or athiesm or what?

Or could it be just talking about his day and his time and because history almost always repeats itself in cycles, could it have already happened when Rome fell.

[Firestone66]

Like I mentioned in the very beginning Jesus made no reference to an Antichrist.  I am not doubting that these are in the Bible, I am only stating that Jesus was never recorded as saying he had an Anti~me. Even if John was the real one to write Relelations, his writings never quote Jesus in acknowledging an Anticrist. For anyone who believes in an Antichrist is following John's teachings, not that of Jesus.

[Slendersickness]

Ozzy Valentine, on 10 February 2011 - 04:20 PM, said:

Good point, but I believe it's alluded to in the Book Of Revelation, though I guess it's all symbolic and metaphors. Either way, he wouldn't exactly be an equal as Jesus is always number 1.

I do believe there will be one eventually. Perhaps not an official antichrist, but someone who will be looked as such by the majority of the world. Bad things keep happening, I expect people to globally point the finger.

Is it Obama? Is it Prince Charles? Is it Putin of Russia?

Personally, I think there's an antichrist in each of us - it battles the Holy Spirit. Kind of like the good angel on your right shoulder and the bad on the left.

ya thats what i think too  

[Viral]

Ozzy Valentine, on 10 February 2011 - 04:20 PM, said:

Good point, but I believe it's alluded to in the Book Of Revelation, though I guess it's all symbolic and metaphors. Either way, he wouldn't exactly be an equal as Jesus is always number 1.

I do believe there will be one eventually. Perhaps not an official antichrist, but someone who will be looked as such by the majority of the world. Bad things keep happening, I expect people to globally point the finger.

Is it Obama? Is it Prince Charles? Is it Putin of Russia?

Personally, I think there's an antichrist in each of us - it battles the Holy Spirit. Kind of like the good angel on your right shoulder and the bad on the left.

What about God?

There is no Antichrist in reality, however in theology references to him appeared five times in the gospel of John but I believe it was plural a few times and singular as well so even John had no idea what the Antichrist was supposed to be. He's essentially just a man in league with the Devil whose job it would supposedly be to push humans farther from God and is in most religions put forward as a harbinger of doom and in Islam he's a sign of judgement day approaching.

However being a Atheist... Yeah, it's not going to happen... Unless the Antichrist has already gotten to me!

[Dying Seraph]

Paranoid Android, on 11 February 2011 - 07:54 AM, said:

Biblical answer:

~ 2 Thesallonians refers to a "man of lawlessness" who will try to set himself up as God.

~ Revelation refers to a "false prophet" who will do the work of "the beast".

~ 1 and 2 John refers to "many antichrists" who have come.

Conclusion:  There is not much we can do to identify the false prophet or the man of lawlessness.  Considering the texts they were found in, I would make the argument that they represent a concept rather than a specific person.  1 and 2 John is quite clear though, and refers again to a concept about the "antichrist".  He states that there are many "deceivers" who have gone out in the world to drag people away from the truth of Jesus.  The context implies the deceivers are professing Christians who don't actually preach the true message (it is not referring to non-Christians).  Thus any false teacher who brings false teachings can be said to be one among the "many antichrists" who have come.

Hope this helps

~ Regards, PA

A great post PA.  

History shows us that the Roman Empire itself had no shortage of candidates considered to be THE Anti-Christ. Domition, Caligula and Nero are the most often of names that have been thrown around. It's interesting to bring these Emperors up as many scholars believe that the Roman emperors were refferenced when the Bible was reffering to a fallen God that many allude ot associate to a certain satanic or demonic entity.

Even Simon Magus of Samaria, the Gnostic magician who had a run-in with the apostles Peter and Paul, was an early nominee to be the Anti-Christ.

And there were many other nominees "until Reformation Protestants decided the term must refer to an entire papacy, and that they had been living through a millenium of false religions."-Alice K. Turner

One thing the Bible clearly points out, is an Anti-Christ is anyone who deviates from the teachings of Jesus.

SINcerely,

[alphafemale]

Ezekiel 28:11. You will see who he is ( & was ) there.

[SlimJim22]

I agree that the issue revolves on the point of 'anointing'. Is the anointing some sacred oil, the love of Jesus or the grace of the holy spirit. Whatever interpretation you take, the antichrist is against them.

Only the orthodoxy and the rite of christmation has kept anointing at the forefront. In other brands of Christianity, to my knowledge, the anointing has lost favour and moved from being the core. I am sure they would argue they are anointed with the love of Christ but is this how early Christians viewed this?

A good article on the antichrist is Peter Goodgame's Red Moon Rising. Maybe not for everyone but very well researched.


http://www.johnsanid...hrismation.html

[KillCarneyKlansman]

This guy probably knows more about prophecy than most people put together, worth a good look!

http://www.endtime.com/
http://www.endtime.com/armageddon/

Revelation 6:1-8
¶ I saw ... the Lamb opened one of the seals ... and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer. And when he had opened the second seal ... And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword. And when he had opened the third seal ... And I beheld, a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand ... A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine. {A measure: the word choenix signifieth a measure containing one wine quart, and the twelfth part of a quart} And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say ... and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth. {unto them: or, to him} ¶

Zechariah 6:1-8
¶ And I turned, and lifted up mine eyes, and looked, and, behold, there came four chariots out from between two mountains; and the mountains were mountains of brass. In the first chariot were red horses; and in the second chariot black horses; And in the third chariot white horses; and in the fourth chariot grisled and bay horses. {bay: or, strong} ... And the angel answered and said unto me, These are the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth. {spirits: or, winds} The black horses which are therein go forth into the north country; and the white go forth after them; and the grisled go forth toward the south country. And the bay went forth, and sought to go that they might walk to and fro through the earth: and he said, Get you hence, walk to and fro through the earth. So they walked to and fro through the earth. Then cried he upon me, and spake unto me, saying, Behold, these that go toward the north country have quieted my spirit in the north country.¶

Daniel 2:32&33  This image's head was of fine gold, his breast and his arms of silver, his belly and his thighs of brass, His legs of iron, his feet part of iron and part of clay. [Note: 3rd World Era - Brass; these seals have already been broken!]

White is Western Religion particularily Catholicism. Red is Communism & Oligarchy, Black is Democracy & Trade, So the question is who is this dappled grey pale rider(s)?

Job 2:2  And the LORD said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.

http://www.unexplain...dpost&p=3775022

Believe me the Anti-Christ is real, and he's coming, its just a matter of time, just a few short more years, the way things are going ...

Edited by KillCarneyKlansman, 14 February 2011 - 01:09 PM.

[SlimJim22]

White is Western Religion particularily Catholicism. Red is Communism & Oligarchy, Black is Democracy & Trade, So the question is who is this dappled grey pale rider(s)?

If Clint Eastwood became the Messiah of a new religion I think I'd sign up.  

[Habitat]

Well, according to the Jews, the messiah has yet to appear, so if his opposite were to appear before him, how would they be able to recognize him as the anti-messiah ? Oy vey........

[KillCarneyKlansman]

Thats an easy one.