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Why People Believe in Conspiracies


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#16    flyingswan

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 10:36 AM

View PostQ24, on 23 February 2011 - 10:34 PM, said:

I then moved on to ask why anyone behind the 9/11 false flag attack would reveal the role they played… and I’ve never had a sensible answer to that.  Obviously they don’t plan for years, action the operation, get the results and then sit down for an interview with the media to tell everyone about it.
For a start, you've proposed a scenario that needs a lot of technical development - remotely-piloted aircraft, new demolition techniques - and also claimed, in order to keep the numbers involved down, that the technical experts would not need to be in on the conspiracy.  Why would those technical experts keep quiet when they discovered what their work had been used for?  Apart from that, among the thousands that would have to have been involved, there are bound to be a few people who have consciences, or who find Jesus and repent, or don't think they are being paid enough for their silence and think they could get more by going public.

There is a lot of difference between keeping quiet about something you could take some pride in, however misplaced, and keeping quiet about being involved in mass murder.

"Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true" - Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
In which case it is fortunate that:
"Science is the best defense against believing what we want to" - Ian Stewart (1945- )

#17    MstrMsn

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 11:07 AM

View Postflyingswan, on 24 February 2011 - 10:36 AM, said:

For a start, you've proposed a scenario that needs a lot of technical development - remotely-piloted aircraft, new demolition techniques - and also claimed, in order to keep the numbers involved down, that the technical experts would not need to be in on the conspiracy.  Why would those technical experts keep quiet when they discovered what their work had been used for?  Apart from that, among the thousands that would have to have been involved, there are bound to be a few people who have consciences, or who find Jesus and repent, or don't think they are being paid enough for their silence and think they could get more by going public.

There is a lot of difference between keeping quiet about something you could take some pride in, however misplaced, and keeping quiet about being involved in mass murder.

Just a question: What if they are sick enough to take pride in being involved with mass murder? Just a thought.

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#18    flyingswan

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 11:14 AM

View PostMstrMsn, on 24 February 2011 - 11:07 AM, said:

Just a question: What if they are sick enough to take pride in being involved with mass murder? Just a thought.
Every single one of the thousands involved?

"Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true" - Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
In which case it is fortunate that:
"Science is the best defense against believing what we want to" - Ian Stewart (1945- )

#19    Q24

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 01:23 PM

View PostMstrMsn, on 24 February 2011 - 11:07 AM, said:

Just a question: What if they are sick enough to take pride in being involved with mass murder? Just a thought.
They don’t even have to be sick exactly.

People generally put too high value on their own importance – the average individual is concerned with their own comfort and general petty affairs; what they are having for dinner that day or doing at the weekend, etc.  Those at the extreme top of leadership are focussed on driving global agendas and it has been shown that they can view the population as an irrelevance or more as a resource of the country; that is, dispensable.  It is naturally a whole different mindset that each level is based upon.

Ask yourself…

Would certain Zionist groups exchange your life to for increased safety of the State of Israel?
Would certain Neocon groups exchange your life to secure continued American pre-eminence?

Of course the answer is yes.
Except they aren’t going to come right out and tell you that.

Now would you personally agree to the above exchange?
Of course the answer is no.

The questions are extreme but serve to prove the point - there are different values at work.

I see little difference whether it is one life or thousands involved in these circumstances.


View Postflyingswan, on 24 February 2011 - 11:14 AM, said:

Every single one of the thousands involved?
A few dozen Americans with assistance from foreign sources I would actually think.

Of course some level of expertise would be required though I suggest mostly from those foreign sources and the technology required was hardly groundbreaking – we have seen an engineer set up a simple thermite device to cut a steel column in his back garden despite your own claims that it could not be done.

The question that MstrMsn asked and my response debunk the rest of your opinion.

Your defence is wholly reliant on the idea that everyone has the same values.

History has shown and basic logic dictates that they don’t.

Though this is all too frightening and alien for many people to accept.

Operation Northwoods was a 1962 plan by the US Department of Defense to cause acts of violence, blamed on Cuba, in order to generate U.S. public support for military action against the Cuban government. The plan called for various false flag actions, such as staged terrorist attacks and plane hijackings, on U.S. and Cuban soil.

#20    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 02:39 PM

Now, i don't mean to get involved in another 9/11 discussion, but I've never really understood this argument.

View PostQ24, on 23 February 2011 - 10:34 PM, said:

... I then moved on to ask why anyone behind the 9/11 false flag attack would reveal the role they played… and I’ve never had a sensible answer to that.  Obviously they don’t plan for years, action the operation, get the results and then sit down for an interview with the media to tell everyone about it.
So all the people involved, then, would have been utterly brainwashed fanatics who do not have a shred of conscience between any of them? And they've been able to live with knowledge of being involved in this for 10 years now? And in that time, not one of them has come forward? I feel that that stretches plausibility somewhat. Think of all the people (supposedly) involved in UFO coverups who've spoken up, and they were (or so they claim) involved in something that was enormously less of a crime that this (supposedly) was.  This whole concept is one of the things that I've remarked about before, that it always seems to be the reverse of Occam's Razor; it can't just be that governments let something happen, or that it did happen the way it appeared to, but the hijackers weren't necessarily the ones that the goverment wants to make out; but there has to be some enormous alternative plot, which has to be the most complicated possible.

If, as it seems, we are in the process of becoming a totalitarian society in which the state apparatus is all-powerful, the ethics most important for the survival of the true, free, human individual would be: cheat, lie, evade, fake it, be elsewhere, forge documents, build improved electronic gadgets in your garage that’ll outwit the gadgets used by the authorities.

- Philip K. Dick.


#21    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 02:42 PM

View PostMstrMsn, on 24 February 2011 - 11:07 AM, said:

Just a question: What if they are sick enough to take pride in being involved with mass murder? Just a thought.
And if, perhaps, there were some that are, mightn't they have let something slip about their involvement as well? If you were that proud of what you'd done, wouldn't you want to boast about it, perhaps after one or two too many one evening? But has there ever been anyone who's come forward and claimed to have been involved in a plot by the US Governbment to stage 9/11, either through guilt or pride?

If, as it seems, we are in the process of becoming a totalitarian society in which the state apparatus is all-powerful, the ethics most important for the survival of the true, free, human individual would be: cheat, lie, evade, fake it, be elsewhere, forge documents, build improved electronic gadgets in your garage that’ll outwit the gadgets used by the authorities.

- Philip K. Dick.


#22    flyingswan

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 02:53 PM

View PostQ24, on 24 February 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

Of course some level of expertise would be required though I suggest mostly from those foreign sources and the technology required was hardly groundbreaking – we have seen an engineer set up a simple thermite device to cut a steel column in his back garden despite your own claims that it could not be done.
That would still make a bang and in any case is hardly representative of the actual problem.  An unsupported column can be cut and will topple over, but what happens if the column is supported at both ends so the top can't topple, which is the case for a large structure like a building?  I'll tell you what I think.  The top will drop through the width of the cut and weld itself back on the bottom.  I await your backyard demo that I'm wrong, but I'm not holding my breath.

Edited by flyingswan, 24 February 2011 - 03:42 PM.

"Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true" - Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
In which case it is fortunate that:
"Science is the best defense against believing what we want to" - Ian Stewart (1945- )

#23    flyingswan

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 02:56 PM

View PostQ24, on 24 February 2011 - 01:23 PM, said:

Your defence is wholly reliant on the idea that everyone has the same values.

History has shown and basic logic dictates that they don’t.
My argument was the exact opposite of "everyone has the same values".  I said that in any large group there are bound to be a few who have a conscience or some other motive to go public.

"Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true" - Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
In which case it is fortunate that:
"Science is the best defense against believing what we want to" - Ian Stewart (1945- )

#24    MstrMsn

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 03:14 PM

I don't buy that it was an inside job. There are way too many variables that would be involved. All of which have been said, and when it comes down to it, 747400 and flyingswan to bring up a valid point. With any amount of people that would have to be involved, there's no way that not even one person would stay quiet. Then again, they could always silence them, however, anyone involved will be big enough in the public eye that any death will be questioned by the media.

We are born with 2 fears: Falling, and loud noises, all others are LEARNED.
You say fear is all in the mind. I say you are right; for it is our imagination that makes things seem scary.
If you want to learn how to not be afraid, ask.

#25    Rafterman

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 04:33 PM

View PostQ24, on 23 February 2011 - 10:34 PM, said:


I then moved on to ask why anyone behind the 9/11 false flag attack would reveal the role they played… and I’ve never had a sensible answer to that.  Obviously they don’t plan for years, action the operation, get the results and then sit down for an interview with the media to tell everyone about it.


There are hundreds of reasons why someone becomes a whistle blower - revenge, fame, and money are the most obvious.

Given the general level of hatred toward the Bush Adminstration, anyone coming out with proof that they carried out 9/11 would be set for life and would be one of more famous people in American history for decades to come.

Why is that kind of scenario so unlikely in your mind?

"For me, it is better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
                                                                                                                                           - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World:  Science as a Candle in the Dark

#26    el midgetron

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 05:08 PM

http://en.wikipedia....ation_security)

Posted Image

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#27    flyingswan

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 05:18 PM

View Postel midgetron, on 24 February 2011 - 05:08 PM, said:

How is that relevant?  Even if, say, you have a team of engineers developing a novel demolition method using thermite and they are not told what it is to be used for, they are going to have a tiny bit of an inkling when people all over the Internet start claiming that thermite demolition featured in 9/11.

"Man prefers to believe what he prefers to be true" - Francis Bacon (1561-1626)
In which case it is fortunate that:
"Science is the best defense against believing what we want to" - Ian Stewart (1945- )

#28    Corp

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 06:06 PM

View PostQ24, on 23 February 2011 - 10:42 PM, said:

Yeah… because moving a desk is very much like a high-level covert op.

And I got called out for my comparison?

:blink:

And you've completely missed the point.

The point is that the government is not nearly as effective as conspiracies make them out to be. Government departments would love to be half as efficient as conspiracy theories claim.

War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things: the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth a war, is much worse...A man who has nothing which he is willing to fight for, nothing which he cares more about than he does about his personal safety, is a miserable creature who has no chance of being free, unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.

#29    el midgetron

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 07:39 PM

View Postflyingswan, on 24 February 2011 - 05:18 PM, said:

How is that relevant?  Even if, say, you have a team of engineers developing a novel demolition method using thermite and they are not told what it is to be used for, they are going to have a tiny bit of an inkling when people all over the Internet start claiming that thermite demolition featured in 9/11.

A "tiny bit of an inkling"? So, all it would take in your mind to expose a conspiracy would be for someone to have a "tiny bit of an inkling"??? Posted Image

Not to mention if someone was developing something for the government, something kept from the public, they're work would be classified. If they went public and said "I have a tiny bit of an inkling" that 911 was an inside job because.....", they would likely be hung out to dry for exposing national secrets. And what would their "tiny inkling" actually prove? Nada.


Who is gonna listen to a tinfoil hat wearing traitor anyway?

There are people all over with "tiny inklings"......

Compartmentalization is relevant because of the naive argument that "1,000s" of people would be in the know and in a position to expose the truth. Its silly to believe any power structure or chain of command works like that.

Posted Image

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#30    Rafterman

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Posted 24 February 2011 - 08:00 PM

View Postel midgetron, on 24 February 2011 - 07:39 PM, said:

A "tiny bit of an inkling"? So, all it would take in your mind to expose a conspiracy would be for someone to have a "tiny bit of an inkling"??? Posted Image

Not to mention if someone was developing something for the government, something kept from the public, they're work would be classified. If they went public and said "I have a tiny bit of an inkling" that 911 was an inside job because.....", they would likely be hung out to dry for exposing national secrets. And what would their "tiny inkling" actually prove? Nada.


Who is gonna listen to a tinfoil hat wearing traitor anyway?

There are people all over with "tiny inklings"......

Compartmentalization is relevant because of the naive argument that "1,000s" of people would be in the know and in a position to expose the truth. Its silly to believe any power structure or chain of command works like that.

If they could in fact prove that what they were doing was somehow connected to 9/11 and prove that national leaders conspired to carry out 9/11, they would be untouchable and an instant world-wide celebrity.  Absolutely nothing would happen to them.

"For me, it is better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring."
                                                                                                                                           - Carl Sagan, The Demon-Haunted World:  Science as a Candle in the Dark




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