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Best evidence for ET visitation - 3rd edition


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#2131    booNyzarC

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 04:27 AM

View PostPericynthion, on 22 April 2011 - 01:58 AM, said:

*snipped more fantastic information from Peri... sheesh, I hate snipping that!  But observers can scroll up to see*
Hi booNy.  Thanks for posting Bruce Macabbee's length estimates (and thanks again for all of the information you've been posting on this topic.  You dug up a lot of great stuff!)

The lights I was playing with in Google Earth are flares 5 through 9 using Maccabee's numbering scheme.  The pattern I laid out is about 2 miles long.  That may be a bit longer than the distance Bruce would have estimated for that portion of the array, but it's pretty close and well within the margin of error considering the coarseness of the data we're working with.  

P.
Thanks mate, sincerely.  Praise from one as diligent as you is high praise indeed and your praise in post #2060 was much appreciated too.

I must defer such, however, if I'm to be honest with myself.  A great deal of the information about the Phoenix Lights comes from much more deserving sources like Bruce Maccabee, Czero 101, lost_shaman, psyche, and yourself.  My additions have been modest at best.  Almost everything that I have brought to the table regarding the Phoenix Lights has been from others and I can take virtually no credit. :blush:


#2132    booNyzarC

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 04:33 AM

View Postarenee, on 22 April 2011 - 04:17 AM, said:

I dip out for one week guys...one whole week and this monster of a thread grows by like 30 pages!!!  How's a girl to keep up?  Maybe I should just assume it's the usual bickering and start from the end?  Can anyone tell me if it's worth it go back and try to catch up the proper way or if I can start from here and not feel too lost? :angry:
I've been wondering where you were arenee.  No need to read through the whole 30 pages, I'll give you a synopsis:

Skyeagle was wrong.
Then, Skyeagle was wrong again.
Then, people (like your man and quillius) started talking about cases which weren't completely refutable.  That lasted a bit.
Then skyeagle continued to be wrong.
And we argued with him.
And then skyeagle was wrong again.
And we continued to argue with him.
Along the way there were snippets about cases which haven't been solved.  But those discussions were broken up because skyeagle refused to admit that he was wrong and continued to argue.

Welcome to the present.  And we'll probably continue arguing with skyeagle about how he is wrong, but he won't admit it.

That about sums it up.

Hope you had a great vacation! :P


#2133    skyeagle409

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 04:49 AM

View PostPericynthion, on 22 April 2011 - 01:58 AM, said:

Hi 1963.  The Sears Tower and Hancock Center are about 1.5 miles apart, so you're really not looking a very large area in that photo.  That's because the camera was zoomed in quite a bit.  The camera data is available on the Flickr page (click on the "Canon PowerShot SD790 IS" link in the upper right corner of the page).  The data shows that the camera was zoomed in to full telephoto and was also using an extra 2.85x digital zoom.  For that camera, that's about equivalent to a 300mm telephoto lens on a 35mm camera.  That's a pretty powerful magnification.

The same basic thing is happening with the Phoenix lights "K" video (the source for the screen shot in your link above).  Watch the video and notice just how far the camera zooms in to get a closeup of the lights:





I think the lights would've actually appeared pretty small to the naked eye from this location.  Here's another shot from Google Earth showing a wider view from the hill where the video was shot.  To give a bit of perspective, the cameraman is standing on a 300 foot high hill overlooking the neighborhood below, and the hill in the middle distance which blocks part of the mountains is about a mile away.  I've added a scaled frame of the video footage for comparison to make it clear just how far zoomed-in the video really is.

Posted Image







Hi booNy.  Thanks for posting Bruce Macabbee's length estimates (and thanks again for all of the information you've been posting on this topic.  You dug up a lot of great stuff!)

The lights I was playing with in Google Earth are flares 5 through 9 using Maccabee's numbering scheme.  The pattern I laid out is about 2 miles long.  That may be a bit longer than the distance Bruce would have estimated for that portion of the array, but it's pretty close and well within the margin of error considering the coarseness of the data we're working with.  

P.

People down below in the valley, and across Phoenix, saw the same lights,  which indicates that those lights were just a few miles from the camera, not over the BGR  as they were high overhead as indicated by the fact that people down in the valley had watched the lighs as well, and, they were not flares over the BGR either. They should have been an indicator right there that the lights were not flares over the BGR. Another reason why the Air Force initially denied involvement and another is that the Air Force was unable to provide any operational report at all when requested, which indicates that the
A-10s were nowhere over the BGR at 10 PM, but then again, those lights were not indicative of flares from more than 50 miles away.

There are many  indicators that the lights were not flares and others that such lights cannot be seen from the  Phoenix area, and  I am surprised that those indicators are still being overlooked.

And, once again, the 'rate of movement,' of the lights, and you will notice that I didn't say 'rate of decent,' are not indicative of flare drops from more than 50 miles away. In addition, I have provided the elevations of both, Phoenix and of the BGR, and that is very significant as well.

Tons of indicators, and yet, the dots are not being properly connected, so once again, others who have seen the Air Force demonstration and the earlier sighttings, have said there were no comparison between the  events.

Edited by skyeagle409, 22 April 2011 - 05:20 AM.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#2134    arenee

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 04:56 AM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 22 April 2011 - 04:33 AM, said:

I've been wondering where you were arenee.  No need to read through the whole 30 pages, I'll give you a synopsis:

Skyeagle was wrong.
Then, Skyeagle was wrong again.
Then, people (like your man and quillius) started talking about cases which weren't completely refutable.  That lasted a bit.
Then skyeagle continued to be wrong.
And we argued with him.
And then skyeagle was wrong again.
And we continued to argue with him.
Along the way there were snippets about cases which haven't been solved.  But those discussions were broken up because skyeagle refused to admit that he was wrong and continued to argue.

Welcome to the present.  And we'll probably continue arguing with skyeagle about how he is wrong, but he won't admit it.

That about sums it up.

Hope you had a great vacation! :P
:tu: :lol: :rofl:  
I was in North Carolina trying to get killed by a tornado. :o I put it in my status sheesh! ;)

Well thanks for the update.  Any chance we might bring up some of the cases that were forgotten in lieu of bickering?   Those might be fun.

"A valuable contributor to UM! Always enjoy her clever and often original outlook. - Paxus"

#2135    skyeagle409

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 05:28 AM

View Postlost_shaman, on 21 April 2011 - 05:39 AM, said:

One thing Sky's hung up on IMO is that an Air Force Officer had said that a 'Flare dropped at 6,000 ft and ignited at 3,000 ft would be visible at 150 miles.' I'm paraphrasing but that is the gist of the statement. Sky somehow seems to think this is proof that the 'Flares' were actually dropped at that Altitude.

Nope. there were no flares involved. Even at higher altitudes, you are not going to see any flares over the BGR down in the valley, which makes it all the more compellng the lights were not flares over the BGR, but there is more as well.
.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#2136    skyeagle409

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 05:33 AM

View PostbooNyzarC, on 22 April 2011 - 04:33 AM, said:

I've been wondering where you were arenee.  No need to read through the whole 30 pages, I'll give you a synopsis:

Skyeagle was wrong.
Then, Skyeagle was wrong again.
Then, people (like your man and quillius) started talking about cases which weren't completely refutable.  That lasted a bit.
Then skyeagle continued to be wrong.
And we argued with him.
And then skyeagle was wrong again.
And we continued to argue with him.
Along the way there were snippets about cases which haven't been solved.  But those discussions were broken up because skyeagle refused to admit that he was wrong and continued to argue.

Welcome to the present.  And we'll probably continue arguing with skyeagle about how he is wrong, but he won't admit it.




Sorry, but I am 'RIGHT ON THE  MONEY!!'

Those lights were not flares over the BGR more than 50 miles away, and another indicator was that the Air Force was unable to produce any after action reports when requested and that should have opened some eyes then, especiallyl when the Air Force denied any involvement in the first place.

That should have set off the alarm bells right there!!.

Edited by skyeagle409, 22 April 2011 - 05:35 AM.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#2137    skyeagle409

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 05:46 AM

Once again, the photo.

Draw and straight line to the top of the highest building at 1400 feet and note the degrees above the horizone from more than 50 miles away.

Now, place a 3000-foot mountain  between the Chicago skyline and the camera. The challenge is the find what happened to the  Chicago skyline as it is no longer visible..

Next, elevate yourself 1500 feet higher and try to find what happened to the Chicago skyline.

Where is it? Definitely still not in view.



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#2138    lost_shaman

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 06:01 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 22 April 2011 - 05:28 AM, said:

Nope. there were no flares involved. Even at higher altitudes, you are not going to see any flares over the BGR down in the valley, which makes it all the more compellng the lights were not flares over the BGR, but there is more as well.
.

Sky,

Yes, you can see those 'flares'.

I've presented evidence that Allied Fliers could see 'fires' burning in Germany at Altitude over the 'Channel'. Here we are only talking about 77 miles at most. These 'flares' would be brighter than the brightest stars if someone bothers to calculate the luminosity which is directly related to distance.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

#2139    Czero 101

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 06:16 AM

View Postlost_shaman, on 22 April 2011 - 06:01 AM, said:

Sky,

Yes, you can see those 'flares'.

I've presented evidence that Allied Fliers could see 'fires' burning in Germany at Altitude over the 'Channel'. Here we are only talking about 77 miles at most. These 'flares' would be brighter than the brightest stars if someone bothers to calculate the luminosity which is directly related to distance.

From Skeptoid.com - The Alien Invasion of Phoenix, Arizona:

Quote

The Barry M. Goldwater Range is a big place — over 4,000 square miles — and the Phoenix metropolitan area is even larger, about 14,000 square miles. The distance between the two is usually cited at 60 to 80 miles, but as we can see, that's going to depend on a lot. We do know a little about where the A-10's were flying inside the Goldwater Range. The guy who was in the lead A-10, Lt. Col. Ed Jones, says they were near Gila Bend when they ejected the leftover flares, and Gila Bend is just about exactly 50 miles from downtown Phoenix. Mesa and Scottsdale are farther away, so let's take a super rough stab at it, be conservative, and say that the average observer of the Phoenix Lights was 70 miles away from the A-10's. The brightness of the LUU-2 seen from 70 miles away is roughly equal to a star with an apparent magnitude of somewhere between -3.2 and -4.3, which is significantly brighter than any stars visible in the sky, but not as bright as the full moon. The magnitude scale was developed by the astronomer Hipparchus, where +1 represents the brightest star in the sky, and +6 represents the faintest. -3.2 is quite a bit brighter than the brightest star. The noonday sun has an apparent magnitude of -26.7. Thanks to the guys on the Bad Astronomy and JREF forums who helped me with these calculations.

And for booNy, regarding your earlier post about the effective candlepower of the flares, you were off just a bit...

From the paragraph immediately preceding the one quoted above:

Quote

Let's spend a moment examining the flare said to be used in the incident. The A-10 drops two different kinds of flare: a countermeasure flare, used to confuse heat-seeking missiles; and an illumination flare, used to light up the ground at night either for the benefit of troops on the ground or to light up a target so it can be visually targeted for weapons release. The illumination flare is the one we're talking about. It's called the LUU-2 air-deployed high intensity illumination flare. It's made by defense contractor ATK Thiokol. The variant in use at the time of the Phoenix Lights incident was the LUU-2B/B. It weights 30 pounds and its canister is three feet long and 5 inches in diameter. Once it ejects its parachute and ignites, it puts out 1.8 million candela for 4 minutes, or 1.6 million candela for 5 minutes. It falls in its parachute at 8.3 feet per second. At 1000 feet above the ground, it lights up an area half a kilometer wide at 5 lux. The LUU-2's pyrotechnic candle burns magnesium, which produces an intense white light. Because it burns so hot, it also ends up burning the aluminum canister, which adds an orange hue to the light for most of the burn. About halfway through the burn, enough of the canister has been burned away that it actually lightens the load and it falls more and more slowly. Once it's almost completely out, an explosive bolt disconnects the parachute and the flare drops, burning out completely sometime hopefully before landing on someone's wood shingle roof.



Cz

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe..." - Carl Sagan
"I'm tired of ignorance held up as inspiration, where vicious anti-intellectualism is considered a positive trait, and where uninformed opinion is displayed as fact." - Phil Plait
"For it is the natural tendency of the ignorant to believe what is not true. In order to overcome that tendency it is not sufficient to exhibit the true; it is also necessary to expose and denounce the false." - H. L. Mencken

#2140    lost_shaman

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 06:36 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 22 April 2011 - 05:46 AM, said:

Once again, the photo.

Draw and straight line to the top of the highest building at 1400 feet and note the degrees above the horizone from more than 50 miles away.

Now, place a 3000-foot mountain  between the Chicago skyline and the camera. The challenge is the find what happened to the  Chicago skyline as it is no longer visible..

Next, elevate yourself 1500 feet higher and try to find what happened to the Chicago skyline.

Where is it? Definitely still not in view.


And you've accounted for the curvature of Earth by doing what?

Ignoring it. That's impressive.

Not only that but this photo is meaningless. If you think there is something to see then spell it out so it can be checked and confirmed, or not.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

#2141    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 06:54 AM

View Postarenee, on 22 April 2011 - 04:17 AM, said:

I dip out for one week guys...one whole week and this monster of a thread grows by like 30 pages!!!  How's a girl to keep up?  Maybe I should just assume it's the usual bickering and start from the end?  Can anyone tell me if it's worth it go back and try to catch up the proper way or if I can start from here and not feel too lost? :angry:
There was a lot of stuff about sines, cosines and tangents.

If, as it seems, we are in the process of becoming a totalitarian society in which the state apparatus is all-powerful, the ethics most important for the survival of the true, free, human individual would be: cheat, lie, evade, fake it, be elsewhere, forge documents, build improved electronic gadgets in your garage that’ll outwit the gadgets used by the authorities.

- Philip K. Dick.


#2142    lost_shaman

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 06:58 AM

View Post747400, on 21 April 2011 - 03:13 PM, said:

You seem to think I'm arguing with you, when I am in fact, or so i thought, agreeing that aircraft flying slowly can look like UFOs, and so can flares, probably.

Hey 747400,

I'm used to disagreeing with people a bit, it's nothing personal and sometimes text just doesn't come across as it is meant to.

Whoever fights monsters should see to it that in the process he does not become a monster. And if you gaze long enough into an abyss, the abyss will gaze back into you. - Friedrich Nietzsche

#2143    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 07:03 AM

Quote

The magnitude scale was developed by the astronomer Hipparchus, where +1 represents the brightest star in the sky, and +6 represents the faintest. -3.2 is quite a bit brighter than the brightest star. The noonday sun has an apparent magnitude of -26.7.
That seems a bit counter-intuitive, doesn't it. You'd expect the brightest things to register highest on the scale, you'd expect something measuring +6 to be a bit brighter than -26.7.

If, as it seems, we are in the process of becoming a totalitarian society in which the state apparatus is all-powerful, the ethics most important for the survival of the true, free, human individual would be: cheat, lie, evade, fake it, be elsewhere, forge documents, build improved electronic gadgets in your garage that’ll outwit the gadgets used by the authorities.

- Philip K. Dick.


#2144    Otto von Pickelhaube

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 07:06 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 22 April 2011 - 05:33 AM, said:

Those lights were not flares over the BGR more than 50 miles away, and another indicator was that the Air Force was unable to produce any after action reports when requested and that should have opened some eyes then, especially when the Air Force denied any involvement in the first place.

That should have set off the alarm bells right there!!.
But the Air Force lie about things routinely, don't they? What about all those R
Spoiler
cover stories? So are you saying that it should be suspicious that they denied any involvement, or their denial of involvement shows that they weren't there at the time?

If, as it seems, we are in the process of becoming a totalitarian society in which the state apparatus is all-powerful, the ethics most important for the survival of the true, free, human individual would be: cheat, lie, evade, fake it, be elsewhere, forge documents, build improved electronic gadgets in your garage that’ll outwit the gadgets used by the authorities.

- Philip K. Dick.


#2145    Czero 101

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Posted 22 April 2011 - 07:18 AM

View Post747400, on 22 April 2011 - 07:03 AM, said:

That seems a bit counter-intuitive, doesn't it. You'd expect the brightest things to register highest on the scale, you'd expect something measuring +6 to be a bit brighter than -26.7.

Well, you can thank the ancient Greeks for that...

From Wiki - Magnitude (Astronomy)

Quote

The magnitude system, and the reason that objects get brighter with decreasing magnitude, dates back roughly 2000 years to the Greek astronomer Hipparchus (or the Alexandrian astronomer Ptolemy—references vary) who classified stars by their apparent brightness. Originally the brightest stars were rated magnitude 1, the next brightest were magnitude 2, and so on down to magnitude 6 for the faintest stars visible to the naked eye.



Cz

"You can't convince a believer of anything; for their belief is not based on evidence, it's based on a deep seated need to believe..." - Carl Sagan
"I'm tired of ignorance held up as inspiration, where vicious anti-intellectualism is considered a positive trait, and where uninformed opinion is displayed as fact." - Phil Plait
"For it is the natural tendency of the ignorant to believe what is not true. In order to overcome that tendency it is not sufficient to exhibit the true; it is also necessary to expose and denounce the false." - H. L. Mencken