72 replies to this topic

[Soul Kitchen]

ShadowSot, on 23 April 2011 - 06:49 PM, said:

Keep in mind, theism includes all religions, not just Christianity.
You can also respect the members of a religion, though not the religion itself.

I realize that it isn't completely self-contradictory, but you can't deny at least some level of irony there.

[Wyrdlight]

Paranoid Android, on 20 April 2011 - 08:46 AM, said:

Admittedly you are going by your own experience, but would you believe me if I told you that my belief is not based on fear but on love?  I love God for who he is, not because I fear what happens if I didn't do so?  Would you believe me or would you think I am lying (either to you or to myself) and that I really am working through a fear-based construct?

Thanks for the answer in any case

~ Regards,

I would argue that one cannont love somthing so immaterial and vague.

Love is a strong emotion, fuelled mostly by chemical and hormonal impusles mixed with instinct and social conditioning,  I dont think that an abstract conecept such as a divine creator can bring about such emotions.

You may have strong emotional feelings towards a point of view, you may belive in somthing, you may have faith in a certain out-come or set of rules.  But thats not love in my view, thats fear making you want/beleieve things in order to nulify that fear.

If religion is based on love, then why are religious texts littered with references to smiting places, stoneing people to death, waging war on other faiths, being intolerant.  I look at religion and the only love i see is the love of control, to shape the lives of those who practice the religion in accordance to the will of those who lead the religious community and write the religious texts.

[Br Cornelius]

On the point of the original question.
I do think that those who say that "they do not know", until they have objective proof, are superior to anyone who claims to know based on subjective belief (atheist or believer). A state of expectant unknowing is the only really honest position which I feel tenable. This can only be answered through personal Gnosis. Anyone who has had a personal Gnosis can say that they know their belief is superior to either Atheism or Faith. However even here great care needs to be used in interpreting what the Gnosis actually represents as most people will simply attempt to fit personal experience into their preconceived world view.

An example would be if you claimed to have seen a white light which spoke to you - that seems like a reasonable narrative of a real subjective/objective event. If you then claimed that that white light was God or a representative of God, because your beliefs had primed you to interpret white lights as Divine manifestations - then you are severely overstepping the mark and drawing erroneous conclusions based on the evidence of your own senses. So seeing white lights is only proof of the existence of certain forms of white light which require an objective explanation.

Uncertainty seems the only honest intellectual position when all available evidence is tainted by subjectivity and tradition.

Br Cornelius

[thewatchman7]

as an atheiest, i feel absolutely no feeling of superiority. i was raised in a very christian environment and decided to question what i beleived. upon looking into deeper i found what i belevied to be based on nothing but stories (written by the hand of MAN) and blatant stealing and fusion of other religions. i feel that the beleif in which you cannot see, feel or hear to be lacking for me personally, its empty and unfulfilling. my main two problems with religion is, a) the amount of trouble it produces b)ignorance to other religions.

a) i feel that so many atrocities in history have been chalked up to 'gods will' just look at the crusades. going halfway around the world to kill men, women and children because god said its ok. another point of interest here is i once knew a very devout christian who said if he heard gods voice telling him to kill people, he would. god forbid he ever gets any mental illness.

ahh good old ignorance is next, an above poster, i forget who, stated he 'knows' yahweh to be the one true god. really? really dude? of the countless other religions that exist, your imaginary friend is more valid than anyone elses? and your logic is because more people beleive in yours? im sorry but just because people beleive something doesnt make it so.

[=Jak=]

markdohle, on 18 April 2011 - 02:28 PM, said:

Do the atheists on this site think that they are superior to believers? No

Also do you think that we are weak and only believe because we are afraid of death and non-existence? NO  

In other words to you think we are actually dishonest in the reasons we give about our different spritural paths. No, because logic and reasoning won't work out in FAITH


The more outspoken atheist, seem to think this, but I don't want to fall into the trap (that some atheist seem to fall into to when talking about believers) of stereotyping all atheist in this way.  So your input will be welcome, whatever it is.


Peace
Mark

Yes, we feel sorry for those who preaches us, who hopes that they can change us soon or later.

Even place like unexplained mysteries, each one trying to put us in some group. When actually we don't exist in one or don't want one.  

We also feel sorry, when someone really fears on blackmail rules of religion books.

We feel sorry for those who try to explain full AI, when we are just a macros of micros.

[=Jak=]

Edited by =Jak=, 18 May 2011 - 02:30 PM.

[joshy]

Quote

Do the atheists on this site think that they are superior to believers?

Personally no.

Quote

Also do you think that we are weak and only believe because we are afraid of death and non-existence?

Again personally I do not, however some people do use religion like that, death bed converts for example.

Quote

In other words to you think we are actually dishonest in the reasons we give about our different spritural paths. The more outspoken atheist, seem to think this, but I don't want to fall into the trap (that some atheist seem to fall into to when talking about believers) of stereotyping all atheist in this way.

Some people are dishonest with themselves and others, yet others are not. I take it on a per person basis

Quote

So your input will be welcome, whatever it is.

*salutes*

[markdohle]

Wyrdlight, on 19 April 2011 - 12:55 PM, said:

I think that people are religious due to two things.

One, childhood indoctrination.

Two, a fear and/or inabilty to cope with the idea that that there is no life after death, no diven will, no creator, that we are alone, that we make our own morals etc.

I my experiance "religious" people use thier religion as a "get out of jail free card" to avoid any and all difficult, painful or scary problems that they find in life.

Not sure what to do in a certain situation? read the Bible and find out what X said about it.  Dont use your own mind, and will and morals to make a decisions.  Use what another person said and thus avoid all respnsibility.

Avoidance and/or shifting responsibility is key as well, if you can say "its Gods will" then you can do anything, endure anything make it somone elses problem.

I see at as a weakness, an inabilty to cope with the fundementals of life in general.

Does that mean I look down on religious people? no.
Do I think I am better? no.

People are people are people, we each deal with life as best we can, for some thats religion and thats fine by me.

I doubt any of us "use our own minds" as such.  I think today the religious view takes thinking and is becoming counter cultural while to follow the morals of our culture takes nothing like that at all.  All you have to do is go along.  Abortions are one instance, though I don't have any simplistic answers in how to deal with issue.

Also faith is more complex than you present, though you try to be fair and I like that. I think some people have a cultural faith, and that is fine as long they don't hit any bumps, then trouble starts.  In the future, as the faithful become the minority, I think the tables will turn, believers will become intellectual, while those who don't have faith will sink into a cultural mode of living out their unbelief, they will have no need to defend themselves any longer.  I think atheism will continue to become a force that will sweep away the faith of many, yet, there are always those who simply believe, because atheism really makes no sense, at least for them.  If everyone believed that God does not exist, or if they believed the opposite, we are still in waiting mode, we simply don't know.

As a Christian, I have my path, I read, study, ponder, look into other beliefs systems and then there is my own experience that also leads me.  I don't fear death, nor do I fear oblivion, in fact at times that can be a quite pleasant prospect.  No an afterlife means that we are responsible for our lives and we will have to face what we become.  I think the NDE brings that up very clearly in the life review.

Peace
Mark

[Alzimba]

Dravenguild, on 25 April 2011 - 06:25 AM, said:

That's actually a much better explanation of how I feel, not so long winded an all =P

The essense of being good or bad is determined by genetic and enviromental factors. One can be better good or evil gradually over veryy long period of times if his self-awareness and logic challenges his essense, ego and emotions. Being atheist or being religious are two seperate things from being good. Good is the essence of your connection and perception of equality to the rest of the universe. Atheism and religion are beliefs. Being religious does not mean you are good nor does being athiesm give you a higher rank of perception over others.You can be both good and evil in both beliefs. For example ,Pol Pot and Stalin were both atheists who had no disregard for human life. Ayotallah Kohmeini and Medieval Christianity were both relgious people who also had total disregard for certain genre of people. It doesnt matter ,being good is an essence that some people have while some people do not develop. Self awareness and socialization is one to become good.

[Spock_the_Future]

markdohle, on 18 April 2011 - 02:28 PM, said:

Do the atheists on this site think that they are superior to believers?  Also do you think that we are weak and only believe because we are afraid of death and non-existence?  In other words to you think we are actually dishonest in the reasons we give about our different spritural paths.  The more outspoken atheist, seem to think this, but I don't want to fall into the trap (that some atheist seem to fall into to when talking about believers) of stereotyping all atheist in this way.  So your input will be welcome, whatever it is.
Peace
Mark

We are not "superior", Sorry I didn't see all the replies and maybe the same has already been quoted and I am also sure that it would have gotten to written directives (Whatever books Bible or otherwise ).

Science Yeah maybe but then I don't tend to attribute everything to it (My main contention with aqua maybe), In an Atheist kind of way all I can say is that you are free to believe whatever you choose to get to your Target In Life. Target is all you.

My reason is Do you need GOD to get there or Hard Work ? I'll ask you instead, What should we believe in ? GOD or myself ?

Spock

[Spock_the_Future]

Edit: Unintended repost. I clicked post only once. Coders please check the Bug.

Edited by Spock_the_Future, 19 April 2012 - 09:24 PM.

[Arbenol68]

I'm not sure that 'superior' is the right word to use. But they definitely think they know better.

It's really a question for everyone:

Do ........ think they are superior to ........?

Insert atheist, christian, muslim, jew, buddhist, scientologist etc...........

[markdohle]

Arbenol68, on 19 April 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

I'm not sure that 'superior' is the right word to use. But they definitely think they know better.

It's really a question for everyone:

Do ........ think they are superior to ........?

Insert atheist, christian, muslim, jew, buddhist, scientologist etc...........

Yes it is, I think most of us (I do) suffer from personal infallibility.....it is diffiuclt to break loose from that and to listen....a life long endeavor, at least for me.

Peace
mark