71 replies to this topic

[vitruvian12]

Soul Kitchen, on 24 May 2011 - 10:38 PM, said:

Matter contains energy. The problem is that people, in their heads, visualize energy as a form of matter. Energy isn't a tangible thing in itself, it is more of a phenomenon.

Energy isnt a phenomenon, its something we manipulate and use everyday.  If the soul can be defined by physical measurements like volume and weight, it must have a physical location in the body that we should be able to find.  If it is energy (in what form?) then we should be able to detect, identify and measure it. If its neither of these things, which seems to be the case as we have yet to find it, then it must be non-existant or some sort of magical item.  If its something magical and invisible to us then what can we possibly know about it?

[Soul Kitchen]

vitruvian12, on 26 May 2011 - 01:59 AM, said:

Energy isnt a phenomenon, its something we manipulate and use everyday.

I meant phenomenon as something that occurs, and is observable. I knew it wasn't the best word to describe it but I couldn't think of anything else.
All I meant to explain was that energy isn't what many people think it to be.
They imagine a substance, when energy is just the ability to do work.

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If the soul can be defined by physical measurements like volume and weight, it must have a physical location in the body that we should be able to find.

Perhaps we are CAPABLE of finding it, but it can't be easy. Perhaps the soul manifests as a tiny, dense solid hidden away in some nook of the body. Or a vapor that floats across a wide area.

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If it is energy (in what form?) then we should be able to detect, identify and measure it.

I'm not sure why you think that we should be able to so easily detect/identify/measure any form of energy.

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If its neither of these things, which seems to be the case as we have yet to find it, then it must be non-existant or some sort of magical item.  If its something magical and invisible to us then what can we possibly know about it?

Nothing transcends the laws of reality, only the limited human understanding of said laws. There can't be any such thing as "magic".

[vitruvian12]

Soul Kitchen, on 26 May 2011 - 02:26 AM, said:

Nothing transcends the laws of reality, only the limited human understanding of said laws. There can't be any such thing as "magic".

In my opinion the notion of a soul is magical, thats part of the reason why I dont believe we have one. That and the religious aspect that it carries.
I agree the term "energy" is grossly misused, mostly by the new age line of thought. I cringe when I hear it being used, that and "vibration".

[Soul Kitchen]

In all fairness, it's more a matter of a lack of better words. New definitions are assigned to "energy" and "vibration", and are established strongly enough so that, in a way, it isn't misuse any more than it's just an example evolving language.
I'm still not sure exactly what "vibration" is supposed to mean in the new age context, though.

[devilmaycare]

Well, If attention (a tention) is to be defined as whatever it is you pay attention to, then vibration is simply a state of attention of a certain frequency.
Energy defines you, not the other way round.
Putting an arbitrary number to the 'weight' of the soul is utter nonsense to begin with. When we have absolute control over gravity, matter will be of the mind.

Edited by devilmaycare, 05 June 2011 - 03:53 PM.

[vitruvian12]

devilmaycare, on 05 June 2011 - 03:48 PM, said:

Well, If attention (a tention) is to be defined as whatever it is you pay attention to, then vibration is simply a state of attention of a certain frequency.
Energy defines you, not the other way round.
Putting an arbitrary number to the 'weight' of the soul is utter nonsense to begin with. When we have absolute control over gravity, matter will be of the mind.

If thats your definition of attention then I have to assume your understanding of vibration is equally wrong or made up.  Attention is the concentration of your mental awareness on an object, not the object itself like your definition would imply.

[Qingu]

I find it quite amusing, that I have just finished reading Dan Brown's newest novel, the Lost Symbol, in which one of the characters claims she proved the Human soul has weight - and then I run into this thread.

[BiPolarMania]

my humble opinion.....

Number one, the McDougall experiment was done in the early 1900īs with i think about 5-6 patients, and there needs to be a new controlled study with today's technology Things like the weight of the lungs before and after, plus as many other parameter's as we can possibly measure...this seems to be a great way to investigate one of the biggest mysteries left!!

This has been a great thread/forum for a couple of really good ideas, the measuring of the fetus for example, really good idea for the pro life/choice movement, but in this case its only gonna raise the question of when "exactly" does the soul form. Great area for research but logically, first, we need to find evidence that a soul exists at all.

Now, I'm not a scientest (or obviously a good speller) I am a philosopher with a science interest, I see the importance of this discovery over how we get there, but we need to get there...not everything is making sense.

My theory is that the building blocks of the universe, simply worded, is energy. Thus if we have a soul its just another "form" of energy, as Einstein discovered there is a correlation between energy and mass, thus the soul MUST have a weight/mass......but wait....only if it exists.

Thanks for reading...

"Energy is the only religion, Consciousness the only god" - BiPolarMania

[_Only]

BiPolarMania, on 30 September 2011 - 07:27 PM, said:

My theory is that the building blocks of the universe, simply worded, is energy. Thus if we have a soul its just another "form" of energy, as Einstein discovered there is a correlation between energy and mass, thus the soul MUST have a weight/mass......but wait....only if it exists.

Wait, so electricity has mass? Got a Giorgio Tsoukalos vibe from that statement.

I really think there is a more natural explanation for that 21 gram average taken from 6 people.

[BiPolarMania]

Jerry Only, on 01 October 2011 - 05:06 AM, said:

Wait, so electricity has mass? Got a Giorgio Tsoukalos vibe from that statement.

I really think there is a more natural explanation for that 21 gram average taken from 6 people.

Agreed, its very possible, maybe even more plausible, that there is a natural explanation
for this phenomenon. Thus the need for a new investigation.

To measure something means when need a point of reference, if its unmeasurable by today's scientific standard or in other words outside our realm of understanding, then the question itself becomes redundant.

"Energy is the only religion, Consciousness the only god" - BiPolarMania

[-vv-]

On my early 20s I had just decided to study biochemistry. Long days of physiology, biology, physic caught me in those old buildings of the university with hundred of student listening to a professor with some aura of rock star performing in front of a current audience of nerds. I’ve never imagine that in my enlightenment mind I would be pushed to think in the paranormal thanks to those classes that found us more than one time at the edge of the knowledge of the science that planted the seeds that inspire my today research.

In one of those days in physiology's class, the study of the rigor mortis and the mechanims of how the biochemistry of muscles provoke that effect (long to explain now) showed us its relationship in some way with the energy loss at the moment of death, tempted the professor to add a weird comment about some experiment that measured weight loss at the moment of the death. But as he regretted what he had just said suggested to "focus in what we know and don’t get lost in this detail that science can’t explain yet". Just what I needed to hear to do the opposite.


In 1907, Dr. MacDougall, an early 20th century physician in Haverhill, Massachusetts, weighed six patients while they were in the process of dying from tuberculosis by placing the entire bed on an industrial sized scale which was apparently sensitive to grams. At the very moment of the death of the patient, he could measure a sudden loss of weight and concluded it should be the soul leaving the body.

A group of physicians were helping him in these experiments trying to obtain a good data that only could be gotten from four of the six patients, as follow, as I could find:

0.75 oz. = 21.3 g
0.5 oz. = 14.2 g (a few moments later the total loss was 1.5 oz.)
0.5 oz. = 14.2 g (a few moments later the total loss was 1.0 oz.)
0.375 oz. = 10.6 g (a moment later the weight seemed to come back and loss was measured at 0 oz.)

It seems that only the first one came out as the symbol of the weight of the soul on the popular culture that referred to the 21 grams of the soul.

[Mikko-kun]

Soul Kitchen, on 26 May 2011 - 10:09 PM, said:

In all fairness, it's more a matter of a lack of better words. New definitions are assigned to "energy" and "vibration", and are established strongly enough so that, in a way, it isn't misuse any more than it's just an example evolving language.
I'm still not sure exactly what "vibration" is supposed to mean in the new age context, though.

Many people link astrology and Edgar Cayce to new age stuff, but I dont know how you even define someone who's a "new age believer" of sort, maybe someone who listen whale sound tapes like Homer did in Simpsons? I do that too though sometimes... I guess there's many kinds of new agers to begin with so it reaaaally depends on who you ask. I think vibrations is just that, vibrations. Movement of atoms, electrons, our movement, everything that moves, "vibes" or feelings, all ordinary things.

Presuming that weight exists as we know it

BiPolarMania, on 01 October 2011 - 06:33 AM, said:

My theory is that the building blocks of the universe, simply worded, is energy. Thus if we have a soul its just another "form" of energy, as Einstein discovered there is a correlation between energy and mass, thus the soul MUST have a weight/mass......but wait....only if it exists.

Presuming Einstein was right. We humans are a presumptous bunch, are we not? As far as I know, despite of being a bright child, Einstein was no god who can determine the laws of universe, only someone observing them.

Edited by Mikko-kun, 19 May 2012 - 06:54 PM.