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Stan Gooch & The Neanderthal Legacy


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#1    The Puzzler

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 04:49 AM

Posted Image

Sorry this is such a big chunk of text but I wanted to convey as much as this idea as possible in the words of the article, much better than me trying to explain it...

Ultimately Gooch developed a framework and theory of human personality in terms of dualities, such as unconscious versus consciousness, religion versus science, magic versus logic, dreaming versus waking. In his list are two key comparisons: psychic phenomena versus materialism, and Neanderthal man versus modern man.9

Gooch’s great insight was that while modern humans might manifest occasional psychic phenomena,10 Neanderthals “certainly possessed abilities in respect of the purely paranormal that far exceeded our own.”11 According to Gooch, we modern humans are literally the result of the dualities coming together, the biological interbreeding of Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons (that is so-called “modern humans,” Homo sapiens) and the melding of Neanderthal religious beliefs and cultural practices with Cro-Magnon societal elements even as Cro-Magnons may have come to physically dominate, and even apparently exterminate, the earlier Neanderthals.

The Neanderthal Question
Who, or what, the Neanderthals were has been a much discussed issue ever since their remains were first recognised in the middle nineteenth century.12 The popular conception of Neanderthals is that of big-browed, short, stocky, stooping, grunting, ape-like cave men (and women) eking out a meagre existence during the harsh conditions of ice age Europe, the Near East, and Southwest Asia.

Classic Neanderthals in Europe date from around 130,000 years ago to perhaps as recently as 24,000 years ago in Gibraltar, but Neanderthal characteristics and antecedents are seen in fossil forms going back to perhaps half a million years ago or earlier.

In many people’s minds Neanderthals are a primitive side branch of the human tree at best, a totally separate species from us, that was driven to extinction by the more intelligent and better armed “Cro-Magnon Man” group (archaic Homo sapiens, essentially the direct ancestors of living humans) who progressively migrated from East Africa into Eurasia during the period of about 60,000 to 30,000 years ago.13

Stan Gooch had a very different view of the place and importance of Neanderthals – in Gooch’s view modern humanity is a result of the intermixing, both biologically and culturally, of Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal elements. In his words,

A biological supernova occurred when Cro-Magnon and Neanderthal man met. We can, if we will listen, still clearly hear the echoes of that explosion and observe its after-effects… [B]ehind these echoes and tendrils we can also then detect the still fainter traces of Neanderthal civilisation itself, and hear the still fainter echoes of falling cities of dreams.14

According to Gooch, Neanderthals possessed an intricate, psychically-charged, magical culture.15 Neanderthals built a long-lasting “high civilisation of dreams.”16 Neanderthal culture, more sophisticated than that of the Cro-Magnons when they first arrived in Europe, served as a primary source for much so-called ancient wisdom.

Gooch argued that Neanderthals were the original creators, the innovators, of high culture, of symbolic values and religious sensibilities, which early modern humans (Cro-Magnons) copied and adopted without genuine understanding. Neanderthal culture was not a civilisation of high technologies, but one of the mind and spirit that survives today in our beliefs, myths, folklore, and religious practices.

Neanderthal Culture
Neanderthals developed in time a culture of the mind of a very high order, but also of a strangeness that is extremely difficult for us to imagine.

Neanderthals, according to Gooch, worshipped the cave bear, the spider, and the serpent – animals with whom they shared their caves. Neanderthals were the first humans to fully develop religious cults, and cave bear worship was their most significant cult. Neanderthals worshipped the number 13, associated with the moon and the lunar calendar, a number that is still considered magical today. Neanderthals developed a profound knowledge of crystals and minerals. According to Gooch, Neanderthals developed their own unique symbols, signs, and sophisticated language systems.17

Neanderthals weaved and sewed embroidery, wore jewellery, painted their faces and bodies, danced, had an elaborate mythology and cosmology, built stone circles, utilised sacred fires, and made ceremonial sacrifices. They had their own grand celebrations and feasts, which were spectacularly colourful and creative performances.

They worshipped the moon and other celestial bodies including constellations still worshipped today worldwide such as The Big Bear, Little Bear, and Draco (the dragon or serpent in the sky). Gooch asserted that Neanderthals had a strong religious life, based on an earth-magic religion, and they believed in the afterlife, practicing complex burial rituals.18

Neanderthals, as Gooch emphasised, were capable of great cultural innovations that included wearing jewellery and decorating their bodies and faces with colourful paints for special ceremonies. There is evidence that the sophisticated Chatelperronian culture of France belonged to the Neanderthals and not, as was formerly believed, to modern humans.19 This culture included symbolic artefacts, such as jewellery. The Uluzzian culture in Italy, also now attributed to Neanderthals, is another example – an innovative culture that included a variety of very sophisticated tools that were similar to modern humans’ tools.20 Neanderthals in Spain were painting perforated shells for decoration, using pigments, and engaged in other ritual behaviour.21 As archaeologist João Zilhão, has stated,

The one thing these finds make clear is that Neanderthals were behaviourally modern. They were not like early modern humans anatomically, but they were cognitively as advanced or more so.22

In many ways Neanderthal culture and Cro-Magnon culture were diametrically opposed. Gooch wrote,

I believe the actuality of Neanderthal man – of whom archaeologists find only a handful of skeletons, a few altars, traces of ritualised burial, a range of flint tools, and an apparent knowledge of herbal remedies – was this: his was a moon-goddess-worshipping, matriarchal, food-gathering society, where women governed all matters. The only tasks delegated specifically to men were those where muscle power was directly and literally required, as in fighting, for example. The structure and nature of Cro-Magnon life was diametrically opposite. This was a patriarchal, hunter-warrior society, of which men governed all aspects, including religious life. Women were mere adjuncts in all things, whose main purpose was to bear sons and to comfort and care for the male. The supreme deity worshipped was the sun god.23

Gooch believed that Neanderthals were a mostly nocturnal species, and came out at night. Observing the skies and the moon for thousands of generations, they had become experts in all phenomena of the stars, having a great understanding of cycles and time, equinoxes and solstices, the phases of the moon.

Cro-Magnons would have come to know Neanderthal religion and knowledge initially through secret observation during 10,000 years (or more) of co-existence. When Cro-Magnons arrived in Europe they were shocked by the knowledgeable Neanderthals, and wanted the Neanderthal magic for themselves; so, they slowly and carefully spied on Neanderthals, copied them, and in the process stole all of their knowledge and wisdom, including writing systems and rituals.

The meeting of Classic Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons in Europe some 35,000 years ago was an immense culture shock for both parties… The two species were culturally opposite to each other in every way.24 At the purely psychological/cultural level,… Neanderthal dealt Cro-Magnon a culture-shock of such magnitude that its consequences are still with us today. Though it left little physical trace, there is in fact… not one aspect of our present lives, our attitudes and our institutions which does not today bear that ancient [Neanderthal] culture’s stamp.25

According to Gooch, Cro-Magnon was dazzled by the religious rituals, symbolism, cosmology, and deep intimate knowledge of the natural world the Neanderthals possessed.

Cro-Magnon took over all the ‘magic’ and ritual of Neanderthal for his own. But he took it over without any real understanding of most of it, and also with certain appropriate changes to suit his own world view, his own existing social structure, his own biological imperatives. He took over essentially empty forms, while losing the priceless content.

http://www.newdawnma...nderthal-legacy

Quite frankly, I found it made so much sense it floored me and I had to start a topic here about it.

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#2    The Puzzler

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 05:07 AM

Could European fairness also come from these people - no Eastern people are naturally fair. All Eastern intrusions into Europe imo would have bought a darker people in.

My daughter just about looks like that girl. Light brown hair, greenish eyes, fair lightly freckled skin, full but small mouth and a largish sized part between the nose and mouth, a typical European trait, with our longer heads.

I am completely English ancestry Australian, I have no eastern element in me at all nor does my partner.

It makes me think how much Neanderthal is actually left in Western Europeans of Germanic extraction.

It seems more logical than we changed from black when we came out of Africa.

Neanderthals are often ginger haired they say - this is a very uncommon gene, red head, Hebrews are said to be redheads mainly, Scottish, Irish, green eyes.

Is the ginger haired gene a Neanderthal one I wonder and fairness and light brown developed from that.

It's almost like the brutish warrior Achaeans wiping out the wise spiritual Trojans.

Edited by The Puzzler, 03 May 2011 - 05:10 AM.

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#3    Leonardo

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 07:43 AM

I am not certain where Mr Gooch gained the detailed knowledge of what the Neanderthal's worshipped, Puzz, and I'd be very interested in discovering the studies which evidence that. Until I can corroborate that these claims are founded in the proper studies, I have to state I am not convinced of his conclusions. Especially the 'nocturnal hypothesis'.

Neanderthal culture was, I am sure, more complex than we gave credit to even a decade ago. New discoveries have highlighted they had a sensibility towards 'spirituality' not unlike our own. I would strongly recommend you research what we know of Neanderthal language. Studies of that are based on physiology, rather than any archaeology, but the hypotheses floating around regarding it are very interesting.

A further area of study I would recommend, is the neurological. Again, conclusions based on study of this are circumstantial - based on the analogy with the structure of our own brain - but are also interesting.

Edited by Leonardo, 03 May 2011 - 07:44 AM.

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#4    The Puzzler

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 09:25 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 03 May 2011 - 07:43 AM, said:

I am not certain where Mr Gooch gained the detailed knowledge of what the Neanderthal's worshipped, Puzz, and I'd be very interested in discovering the studies which evidence that. Until I can corroborate that these claims are founded in the proper studies, I have to state I am not convinced of his conclusions. Especially the 'nocturnal hypothesis'.

Neanderthal culture was, I am sure, more complex than we gave credit to even a decade ago. New discoveries have highlighted they had a sensibility towards 'spirituality' not unlike our own. I would strongly recommend you research what we know of Neanderthal language. Studies of that are based on physiology, rather than any archaeology, but the hypotheses floating around regarding it are very interesting.

A further area of study I would recommend, is the neurological. Again, conclusions based on study of this are circumstantial - based on the analogy with the structure of our own brain - but are also interesting.
I thought of that and I have a good book called The Last Neanderthal, they've always been an interest of mine and it seems many of those things can be found in the symbolism and finds associated with the Neanderthal. I do think that some is probably guesswork though, maybe based on conclusions of finds, that lead to other things.

Still, the idea is quite incredible and probably wouldn't be that far wrong imo. Maybe the ancient knowledge is very old and we just don't realise it. Some of the European cave art is very complex and very old. Some lesser known items such as the Lion Man, 30,000 years old, show examples of highly skilled art at 'ridiculously' early times. I'm not saying this is Neanderthal made but it's not impossible, even if not, it doesn't mean, as said, they weren't creating things like this or even introduced the idea to the Cro-Magnon. Maybe it was a trade item, the Neanderthals could have made it and it ended up in the hands of the others. Like Greek art in Etruria, then they found it was made in Greece. That sort of thing - an actual trade good, maybe the Cro-Magnons gave them something in return. This would be highly likely imo.

Lion Man:
Lion man takes pride of place as oldest statue 30,000-year-old carving might be work of Neanderthals or modern humans.

Intricate ivory carvings said to be the oldest known examples of figurative art have been uncovered in a cave in southwestern Germany. Researchers say that the finding could change our understanding of early man's imaginative endeavours.

The artefacts - including a figurine depicting a Lowenmensch ('lion man') - have been carbon-dated to around 30,000 years ago, when some of the earliest known relatives of modern humans populated Europe.

Discovered last year by a team led by US archaeologist Nicholas Conard of the University of Tübingen in Germany, at the Hohle Fels cave near Ulm, the objects include figures depicting a horse and a bird.
-
Fossil remains suggest that modern humans and Neanderthals both lived in Europe during this period. Conard reported that the sedimentary levels in which the ivory carvings were embedded did not include any Neanderthal fossils. But some archaeologists argue that it is possible that the much-maligned Neanderthals produced similar objects. "I don't think that is as far-fetched as some people might think," says Jeffrey Brantingham, an archaeologist at the University of California, Los Angeles. "These objects are pushing the markers and traits" of modern man "further back into time", he says.

Archaeologists have pointed out that beads, bone points and pendants have already been discovered in association with Neanderthal fossils. Attributing artefacts to one of the two hominid groups remains difficult, says Brantingham. Gamble says that the discovery will spur fresh exploration of France, Spain and South Africa, where even older cave drawings - but not figurative art of this age - have been identified.

http://www.freerepub...ws/976414/posts

Maybe the pendants, beads and burials indicate different ideas they might have had too.

Several flutes found in the same sediment show that the Aurignacians also made music. Their pre-historical period is known as Upper Palaeolithic. The culture name comes from the first site to be studied, at Aurignac in the Haute Garonne area of France.

Over the past two years, German archaeologists have carefully excavated more of the sediment near the spot where the Lion-Man showed up. Thousands of bone fragments and some ivory pieces were found.

Some of them matched the Lion-Man perfectly, a delighted Kind reported.

'This a wonderful time,' he said.

Some of the figure's missing right side and parts of the back have already been restored as a result.

'It needs a huge amount of patience,' said Kind. 'It's like doing a jigsaw puzzle in 3D.'

The work is continuing with the help of computer tomograph images of the pieces and simulation software.

By next year, the Lion-Man may be complete.

The restorers have also concluded that Lion-Man was somewhat taller than the 30 centimetres of him that currently exist. He was carved from one tusk, with the artist forming the legs from two sides of tusk's hollow root.

The archaeologists assume that the Lion-Man is several thousand of years younger than the Venus, the Aurignacian female figure with an enormous bosom and hips which was found in a nearby cave, Hohle Fels, in 2008.


http://www.monstersa...-in-German-cave

Edited by The Puzzler, 03 May 2011 - 09:31 AM.

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#5    SlimJim22

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 09:59 AM

The Lion Man statue is amazing for its quality and timeframe. I had always assumed it was the work of modern humans but there are Venus like statues going back to 200,000 BP. They could well have been Neanderthal and over the millenia they could have imroved the standard of their carving.

I really like the idea of Neanderthals as matriarchicl and living at one with nture and utilitizing magick. It makes a good story and I like to think they had a role in our development of culture.

However, the evidence supporting the Out-Of-Africa is very strong and we have an abundance of rock art showing that homo sapiens sapiens were creative and dextrous. We just don't have enough high quality artefacts that are unequivocally Neanderthal to make a firm conclusion but I like Gooch for proposing a new and rational view.

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#6    The_Spartan

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:31 AM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 03 May 2011 - 04:49 AM, said:


Gooch’s great insight was that while modern humans might manifest occasional psychic phenomena,10 Neanderthals “certainly possessed abilities in respect of the purely paranormal that far exceeded our own.”11 According to Gooch, we modern humans are literally the result of the dualities coming together, the biological interbreeding of Neanderthals and Cro-Magnons (that is so-called “modern humans,” Homo sapiens) and the melding of Neanderthal religious beliefs and cultural practices with Cro-Magnon societal elements even as Cro-Magnons may have come to physically dominate, and even apparently exterminate, the earlier Neanderthals.

Though i am a layman, i would like to point out that accepting Gooch's assertion (the underlined portion) based on minimal evidence, be it archaeological evidence like beads, pendants, burials etc (mentioned later in your post) is quite tough.

Of course, as Leo pointed out, our understanding of the Neanderethal as a species, as a culture is still evolving from our misconception of thinking of them to being cave men (perhaps they were cave men) with a limited brain & thought capacity   ..to...a species which is quite like us, who think, who had developed tool making, lived as a community, who bured their dead and eho even had some sort of religion..perhaps.

But,

Quote

According to Gooch, Neanderthals possessed an intricate, psychically-charged, magical culture.15 Neanderthals built a long-lasting “high civilisation of dreams.”16 Neanderthal culture, more sophisticated than that of the Cro-Magnons when they first arrived in Europe, served as a primary source for much so-called ancient wisdom.

The above is hard to digest with just Gooch's assertion alone. Any religion or cult or belief will have a central figure who could be a shaman,  perhaps. But, on what evidence does he make statements like "intricate", "Physically-Charged", "Magical Culture"??

Quote

Neanderthals, according to Gooch, worshipped the cave bear, the spider, and the serpent – animals with whom they shared their caves. Neanderthals were the first humans to fully develop religious cults, and cave bear worship was their most significant cult. Neanderthals worshipped the number 13, associated with the moon and the lunar calendar, a number that is still considered magical today. Neanderthals developed a profound knowledge of crystals and minerals. According to Gooch, Neanderthals developed their own unique symbols, signs, and sophisticated language systems.17

Neanderthals weaved and sewed embroidery, wore jewellery, painted their faces and bodies, danced, had an elaborate mythology and cosmology, built stone circles, utilised sacred fires, and made ceremonial sacrifices. They had their own grand celebrations and feasts, which were spectacularly colourful and creative performances.

They worshipped the moon and other celestial bodies including constellations still worshipped today worldwide such as The Big Bear, Little Bear, and Draco (the dragon or serpent in the sky). Gooch asserted that Neanderthals had a strong religious life, based on an earth-magic religion, and they believed in the afterlife, practicing complex burial rituals.18

I have serious doubts of Gooch's assertions , underlined above.
Just because they had some form of primitive worship it does not imply that it was highly sophisticated.
Just because archaeologists/anthropologsits etc  found some bear bones, arranged in a pattern does not imply that they "worshipped" the bear. hell, the bear would have been dinner and as all humans go, neandrethals were also inclined to decoration of their homes, be it with bear bones.

Just because of a idea/theory that the neandrethals worshipped the bear does not imply that they knew the stars and understood or could associate with constellations.

Below is a timeline for Paleolithci religion..

Quote

    300,000 years ago – first (disputed) evidence of intentional burial of the dead. Sites such as Atapuerca in Spain, which has bones of over 32 individuals in a pit within a cave.[23]
    130,000 years ago – Earliest undisputed evidence for intentional burial. Neanderthals bury their dead at sites such as Krapina in Croatia.[23]
    100,000 years ago – The oldest known ritual burial of modern humans at Qafzeh in Israel: a double burial of what is thought to be a mother and child. The bones have been stained with red ochre. By 100,000 years ago anatomically modern humans migrated to the middle east from Africa. However the fossil record of these humans ends after 100kya, leading scholars to believe that population either died out or returned to Africa.[24][25]
    100,000 to 50,000 years ago – Increased use of red ochre at several Middle Stone Age sites. Red Ochre is thought to have played an important role in ritual.
    50,000 years ago – Humans have evolved the traits associated with modern human behavior. Much of the evidence comes from Late Stone Age sites in Africa. Modern human behavior includes abilities such as modern language, abstract thought, symbolism and religion.[25]
    42,000 years ago – Ritual burial of a man at Lake Mungo in Australia. The body is sprinkled with copious amounts of red ochre - seen as evidence that the Australians had brought along with them religious rituals from Africa.
    40,000 years ago – Upper Paleolithic begins in Europe. An abundance of fossil evidence includes elaborate burials of the dead, Venus figurines and cave art. Venus figurines are thought to represent fertility goddesses. The cave paintings at Chauvet and Lascaux are believed to represent religious thought.
    30,000 years ago – Earliest known burial of a shaman.[15]
    11,000 years ago – The Neolithic Revolution begins.
Source - Wikipedia


My stupid question is, does all the above religion based evidence point out to be a Neanderthal activity or could they be of Homo sapiens alone or a mix of both?

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#7    The Puzzler

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:46 AM

It may be a case of they were the first real dreamers in a sense of recalling the dream.

Maybe even for a hundred thousand years or more, they were able to dream, like we do today and undersand our visions afterwards. I hardly think a dog or cat wakes up and knows they were being chased by a dog or cat, I'm not sure if they have tested apes for this - we can recall our dreams and also interpret them to a degree, many do. The practice is ancient. Dream beds and cubicles (on Malta, don't quote me on Malta but I think it's there). Joseph's technicolour dreamcoat, which he could interpret dreams and did so. Many myths involve interpretation of dreams. Because of a dream someone did such and such, they were warned in a dream or such.

Do we think we are the only ones who dreamt and my conclusion is this would have appeared quite special and possibly led to a development of other mind skills. Recalling dreams, memory, interpretation of them, the events in them, maybe crazy beasts or unreal situations that become meanings for the dream, all produce a skill of the mind for the first people who dreamed.

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#8    The Puzzler

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 11:56 AM

View PostLeonardo, on 03 May 2011 - 07:43 AM, said:

I am not certain where Mr Gooch gained the detailed knowledge of what the Neanderthal's worshipped, Puzz, and I'd be very interested in discovering the studies which evidence that. Until I can corroborate that these claims are founded in the proper studies, I have to state I am not convinced of his conclusions. Especially the 'nocturnal hypothesis'.

Neanderthal culture was, I am sure, more complex than we gave credit to even a decade ago. New discoveries have highlighted they had a sensibility towards 'spirituality' not unlike our own. I would strongly recommend you research what we know of Neanderthal language. Studies of that are based on physiology, rather than any archaeology, but the hypotheses floating around regarding it are very interesting.

A further area of study I would recommend, is the neurological. Again, conclusions based on study of this are circumstantial - based on the analogy with the structure of our own brain - but are also interesting.
Hi Leo, you put forth valid points certainly and I'm glad you find it interesting.  :tu:
This is the book I have...
Posted Image

It's pretty in depth and recent with many great photos in it and I recommended it if you wanted to follow through any Neanderthal info more. There's plenty ont he net but you know as well as I that books are sometimes much better to resource.


It's not in conjunction with this topic it's just a really excellent book on Neanderthals of recent. I'm onto it, I haven't read it all yet.

Review:

Tattersall, a polished presenter of paleoanthropology (The Fossil Trail ), turns this album toward a specific vexation of the field: the relation of our species to the Neanderthals. Do they constitute lineal ancestors or a separate evolutionary branch? Were they exterminated or absorbed by humans about 30,000 years ago? Interpretations of the evidence excite strenuous debate among the experts, as chronicled in James Shreeve's The Neandertal Enigma , so what's a curious amateur to make of the brouhaha? That's where Tattersall (also a museum curator) excels as he conveys the essentials of the technical literature to the public. These consist of methods by which Neanderthal sites are dated, what inferences may be drawn from the fossils' anatomy, and for background, a narrative of current knowledge about the hominid line. Abundant full-page photos of specimens and archaeological digs cement Tattersall's clarity on the topic, making this an immeasurable aid to students and armchair anthropologists alike.

Another one:

I'm not a reader who usually pays too much attention to photos and illustrations, but I could recommend "The Last Neanderthal" on that basis alone. There are nearly 150 of them in this 200-page book, some covering an entire page in my oversized edition. Almost all of them are superb. The illustrations are mostly of various fossilized bones and reconstructions. They are not haphazardly thrown throughout the book or tightly grouped in the middle, but introduced when appropriate for the text.
Ian Tattersall's set-up of what is known about Neanderthals is masterful. Most of the first third of the book is about evolution, how fossilization works, and a brief description about what is known of the precursors to both Homo neanderthalensis and Homo sapiens. Tattersall is clearly at home with this material and confident in his presentation of it. He takes his time in this area - even though it has little to directly do with the topic of his book - because one cannot understand Neanderthals unless one has some understanding of other pre-modern humans and the scientific techniques used to understand them.

The set-up is not wasted on a flat ending. When Tattersall finally gets to the Neanderthals, he maintains a high level of interest for the reader by first showing how the scholarly views on Neanderthals have changed so much over the last hundred-fifty years (much more fascinating than it sounds) and then by moving into areas about its evolution and what is known about its lifestyle. He appears to be a fair partisan, pointing out evidence both for and against different sides of the numerous controversial topics on Neanderthals.
http://www.amazon.co...s/dp/0813336759

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#9    Harte

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 12:13 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 03 May 2011 - 11:46 AM, said:

It may be a case of they were the first real dreamers in a sense of recalling the dream.
I doubt this very much.

It is known that animals dream.  Why do you cut Homo Erectus out of this idea of remembering a dream?

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#10    The Puzzler

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 12:18 PM

View PostThe Spartan, on 03 May 2011 - 11:31 AM, said:



My stupid question is, does all the above religion based evidence point out to be a Neanderthal activity or could they be of Homo sapiens alone or a mix of both?
My thought on this would be, it seems logical that both would possess an ability to worship something so I don't think it's necessarily even all religious activity even though much seems so in todays term of the word. What constitutes religion, burying someone with some nice things? The red ochre is a possible ritual but it would be normal imo to bury people with goods with no religion based reasoning.

It's more than religion, it's a spiritual, magical ability to connect better with the environment and become aware FIRST of things that then were developed accordingly to what would seem again to me, logically, to be passed on to another people who came in that did not possess the knowledge or ability to use it correctly and understand it.

What tends to happen is the stronger willed people can purposely absorb another's culture to take them over - insidiously creep in and use something as power to control and take over the masses. Spirituality may have once been for everyone once, until some people decided they'd take it.

Edited by The Puzzler, 03 May 2011 - 12:32 PM.

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#11    The_Spartan

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 12:20 PM

Ben Bova's book "Orion" has  a character Ahriman (as in the anglized version of Angra Mainyu from Zoroastrianism) who is shown as a Neanderthal.
In the book, the Neanderthals had developed a happy, self sustaining culture and communicated using telepathy.

In the book, Ormazd (as in Ahura Mazda of Zoroastrianism) is actually human who have developed so advanced that he and his kind have kind of achieved god hood or sort of it.
He looks backs into the time space continuum and finds the evolution of Ahriman's kind and decides that Neanderthals will stagnate and all evolution will fail. So he sends Orion and some others (humans, perhaps cloned) to the past to kill the Neanderthals and the Humans who survive the battles are the original homo sapiens. nice premise!!

But what bought this book to my  mind again, is gooch's assertion of Neanderthals using their brain capacity of higher things!

edited for silly stupid typo

Edited by The Spartan, 03 May 2011 - 12:22 PM.

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#12    The Puzzler

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 12:30 PM

View PostHarte, on 03 May 2011 - 12:13 PM, said:

I doubt this very much.

It is known that animals dream.  Why do you cut Homo Erectus out of this idea of remembering a dream?

Harte
I said they can't recall a dream, as far as I know. I never said they didn't dream. Don't waste my time and annoy me stright off the bat Harte.

As for your other point, yes, but Erectus is not a candidate for the behaviours of the Neanderthal. They might have dreamed but they didn't put anything into practice by the seems of it, the point being Neanderthals may have been able to use the ability to forward themselves mentally and spiritually better than those before them through interpreting dreams and looking at the night sky for so long and passed this knowledge on to us.

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#13    cormac mac airt

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 12:34 PM

Quote

It seems more logical than we changed from black when we came out of Africa.

Except that recent research would suggest that it's much more recent than the 50,000 BP - 70,000 BP timeframe for the OOA migrations.

Quote

Now a new report on the evolution of a gene for skin color suggests that
Europeans lightened up quite recently, perhaps only 6000 to 12,000 years
ago.

European Skin Turned Pale Only Recently, Gene Suggests


Quote

Neanderthals are often ginger haired they say - this is a very uncommon gene, red head, Hebrews are said to be redheads mainly, Scottish, Irish, green eyes.

Neanderthal's red hair color has nothing to do with the red hair of modern humans.

Quote

"We found a variant of MC1R in Neanderthals which is not present in modern humans, but which causes an effect on the hair similar to that seen in modern redheads," said lead author Carles Lalueza-Fox, assistant professor in genetics at the University of Barcelona, Spain.

Neanderthals 'were flame-haired'

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#14    questionmark

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 12:48 PM

A believe system, even the simple believe system, is too complicated to be deduced from what we know of either the Cro-Magnon or the Neanderthal. And little circumstantial evidence, such as the lion man offers itself more to speculation than to scientific fact establishing.

I could imagine what an anthropologist or archeologist in 35.000 years, without knowledge of our present culture, could fabulate after finding a crucified JC somewhere.

I am afraid this one is straight back to the drawing board and no further presentation until at least a connecting evidence, other than circumstantial, has been discovered.

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#15    Harte

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Posted 03 May 2011 - 12:55 PM

View PostThe Puzzler, on 03 May 2011 - 12:30 PM, said:

I said they can't recall a dream, as far as I know. I never said they didn't dream. Don't waste my time and annoy me stright off the bat Harte.
Don't tell me what to do or post.  You waste your own time right here in this thread with your ridiculous speculation based on, apparently, a "feeling" or something.

Note what I said:

Quote

I doubt this very much.

It is known that animals dream. Why do you cut Homo Erectus out of this idea of remembering a dream?
Where, in the above, do you see me implying that you said Erectus didn't dream?

Now, please state why it is that you cut Erectus out of your considerations for species that can remember a dream?

There is no evidence for either species dreaming or remembering dreams.


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