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Stan Gooch & The Neanderthal Legacy


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#241    cormac mac airt

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 04:19 AM

View Postjmccr8, on 18 August 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

Hi Cormac,

   Glad to see that you are back in the thread,and yes it is possible that somethings may be copied from one culture by another through observation.I have learned things in my trade or other associated trades in the same manner,however I was not hiding behind a rock or tree when it happened, I was in an environment where I was interacting with others and able to observe them while they worked.They knew I was there, they either didn't care or were not aware that I was observing them.

   The settlement of North America by Europeans gives us some examples of interactions where one culture aids in the survival of another.Thanksgiving Day is based on how one culture saw that another new culture was not able to survive without their help, and took compassion on them.Could something similar have happened with Neanderthals and Homo-Sapiens? Neanderthals had existed in colder climates and would have been well adapted to surviving, some of the articles in the pages of this thread have shown that Neanderthals had compassion and cared for others that had been injured or unable to survive without assistance,is it possible that they mentored Homo-Sapiens in some ways?
jmccr8

The difference though is that you were interacting in an environment of your own species. Obvioiusly this could not be true of HSS and the Neanderthal.

Which is not the case when we are in the environment of our nearest primate relatives, since they tend to take exception to our invading their territory.

It's just as possible that both groups received much of their learning from before they split off from H. heidelbergensis. One should also keep in mind that at the time Neanderthals had gone extinct in Europe (circa 39,000 BP) that the earliest HSS in Europe had only been there for about 2000 years. And yet their level of cultural structure was already comparable in many ways to the Neanderthals. That kind of puts into question just how much would have been shared between cultures IMO.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#242    jmccr8

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 07:10 PM

Hi Cormac,

   As of yet I have seen no documentation supporting any hostility between these two species,although in an earlier post  was told that we were the same species or rather that one of us is a sub-species, so it is possible that Neanderthals and Homo-Sapiens may not have considered each other as being so different if they saw similarities in each others communities.

  I gave a personal example of observation that was in a non-hostile environment within a same species, I suppose that I could have used some examples that were not as favorable, but chose not to as I do not wish to cite some of the hostile situations as examples.It is enough that we are all aware of the nature of man and the hostility that is displayed by our species.

  To sneak around hunter/gatherers is more difficult,especially to get close enough to observe the details of what someone else is doing.Again I will use a more recent example to try to illustrate, when the settlers first arrived here, both the settlers and the Aboriginals could smell each other before they could be seen,so any close uninvited observation would have to have been made from down-wind so as not to give away their presence.

I don't know if you read the link in post #231, it shows that they had found the remains of a Neanderthal dated at 16,000bp.,that would mean that if he was a sole survivor that he was at least 23,000yrs old or that there were Neanderthal populations that we have not found evidence of yet which is why I suggested that Neanderthals may have had some presence in Doggerland.What's your take on that link?
jmccr8


#243    lightly

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 07:48 PM

Hi jmccr8,      .. while your waiting to hear back from cormac,  i read that link you shared. Very interesting, and i hope the 6000bp date holds up.  

As far as interaction between us and Neanderthal , our shared genetic material proves contact.  It's a mystery whether it was voluntary  or otherwise.      ..anyway, Happy Sunday :)

Edited by lightly, 19 August 2012 - 07:48 PM.

Important:  The above may contain errors, inaccuracies, omissions, and other limitations.

#244    cormac mac airt

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 08:04 PM

Quote

As of yet I have seen no documentation supporting any hostility between these two species...

The flip side of this is that there is no documentation of cultural exchange between the two. At times when a location has shown evidence of both Neanderthal and HSS habitation, BOTH show different points in time in which they were there.

Quote

although in an earlier post was told that we were the same species or rather that one of us is a sub-species

This would be incorrect as that would mean one group was ancestral to the other and neither were. Both descended from Homo heidelbergensis with Neanderthals being designated Homo neandertalensis while modern humans went from Homo sapiens (archaic) through Homo sapiens idaltu to Homo sapiens sapiens (Us).

Quote

I don't know if you read the link in post #231, it shows that they had found the remains of a Neanderthal dated at 16,000bp.

If you read the article a bit closer, the writer obviously made a mistake and didn't catch it. To whit:

Quote

In a cave on Gower Island they found a skeleton of a Neanderthal man from 16,000 B.C. which according to researchers had been buried before the ice age started.

The only way this skeleton could have been buried before the ice age started is if it was buried prior to c.120,000 BP. I would suggest that the 16,000 BC claim probably should have been 160,000 BC.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#245    Swede

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Posted 19 August 2012 - 09:00 PM

View Postjmccr8, on 19 August 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

Hi Cormac,

   As of yet I have seen no documentation supporting any hostility between these two species,although in an earlier post  was told that we were the same species or rather that one of us is a sub-species, so it is possible that Neanderthals and Homo-Sapiens may not have considered each other as being so different if they saw similarities in each others communities.

  I gave a personal example of observation that was in a non-hostile environment within a same species, I suppose that I could have used some examples that were not as favorable, but chose not to as I do not wish to cite some of the hostile situations as examples.It is enough that we are all aware of the nature of man and the hostility that is displayed by our species.

  To sneak around hunter/gatherers is more difficult,especially to get close enough to observe the details of what someone else is doing.Again I will use a more recent example to try to illustrate, when the settlers first arrived here, both the settlers and the Aboriginals could smell each other before they could be seen,so any close uninvited observation would have to have been made from down-wind so as not to give away their presence.

I don't know if you read the link in post #231, it shows that they had found the remains of a Neanderthal dated at 16,000bp.,that would mean that if he was a sole survivor that he was at least 23,000yrs old or that there were Neanderthal populations that we have not found evidence of yet which is why I suggested that Neanderthals may have had some presence in Doggerland.What's your take on that link?
jmccr8

Hi jmccr8 - While none of the following could be considered to be conclusive in regards to interspecies violence, there is evidence for weapons-related injury in some Neandertal recoveries. The Shanidar 3 case is the most suggestive of interspecies as opposed to intraspecies aggression.

The wound that ultimately killed a Mesopotamian (modern day Iraq) 'Neanderthal' (Neanderthal became the colloquial name over time) between 50,000 and 75,000 years was most likely caused by a thrown spear, the kind modern humans used but Neanderthals did not, according to Duke University-led research.

http://www.science20...cide_shanidar_3

Also:

http://www.guardian....ciences-journal

http://news.bbc.co.u...ure/1943960.stm

.


#246    jmccr8

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 11:55 AM

Hi Cormac,

  I may have mis-understood the article,so I went back and re-read it to see why.The way the article is written I took it as saying that that particular area of Wales may not have been covered in ice until 16000bp,as there were still parts of Wales that was ice free during the last ice age.I will refrain from using it as a marker point unless clarified,Thanks

jmccr8


#247    jmccr8

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:34 PM

Hi Swede,

  Thanks for the links.The low frequency of finding remains that show signs of violence would seem to show that these species did not actively practice acts aggression against each other.I live in a city of over a million people and annually have more deaths by violence then we have as of yet found between these two species.

  As far as cannibalism,it has been speculated that both species may have practiced this act, although some have stated that it is possible that the remains had been stripped of flesh as part of a burial practice.

jmccr8


#248    jmccr8

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 12:40 PM

Hi Lightly,

  As Cormac said the article may have not been accurate in presenting the information.I will have to wait and see if any other information is published that will validate or refute it.
Have a good day.
jmccr8


#249    cormac mac airt

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Posted 22 August 2012 - 04:36 PM

View Postjmccr8, on 22 August 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

Hi Swede,

  Thanks for the links.The low frequency of finding remains that show signs of violence would seem to show that these species did not actively practice acts aggression against each other.I live in a city of over a million people and annually have more deaths by violence then we have as of yet found between these two species.

  As far as cannibalism,it has been speculated that both species may have practiced this act, although some have stated that it is possible that the remains had been stripped of flesh as part of a burial practice.

jmccr8

I wouldn't say that, I would say they didn't continuously practice acts of aggression against each other.

As to the latter, keep in mind that there were never 1 million Neanderthals living at any one time throughout their history nor even 1 million HSS. And definitely not all in one place. Also, considering the low size of early human groups, the death of a handful of individuals could potentially be a death dealing blow to any group.

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#250    Swede

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 12:22 AM

View Postjmccr8, on 22 August 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

Hi Swede,

  Thanks for the links.The low frequency of finding remains that show signs of violence would seem to show that these species did not actively practice acts aggression against each other.I live in a city of over a million people and annually have more deaths by violence then we have as of yet found between these two species.

  As far as cannibalism,it has been speculated that both species may have practiced this act, although some have stated that it is possible that the remains had been stripped of flesh as part of a burial practice.

jmccr8

jmccr8 - Just to add a bit to Cormac's reply:

First, one must look at the sampling bias. To date, somewhat over 400 Neandertal individuals have been recovered. If we utilize (for sake of convenience) the 400 figure and the single Shanidar 3 recovery, this would yield an interspecies conflict death rate of .25%. Extrapolation of this rate to a population of one million would yield a death rate of 2,500 individuals, likely well in excess of the actual figures. This aspect does not take into account the low population density and the dispersement of such. These factors would influence the potential for direct conflict.

Cormac's thoughts on the significance of population-group effect are also well considered. Current understandings would suggest that Neandertal social units were not unlike those of early H.s.s., i.e., family units and/or extended family units.

A more modern comparison may be the family-unit size of Amerindian groups. These families often consisted of six to seven individuals, with one or possibly two viable males.

Thus, the loss of even a single viable male (or female) would have the potential to seriously affect the survival probabilities of the entire family unit/extended family unit. Consider the impacts on resource procurement, defense, etc.

.


#251    jmccr8

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 05:57 AM

Hi Cormac and Swede,

  Thank you for your responses, Cormac I agree with you expression of continuously. As for population based numbers I don't fell that with what we have recovered to date is sufficient to make any real judgement on this matter. Earlier I gave two links tha showed parts of Ireland and Wales were ice free during that last iceage.Doggerland was a part of the land mass is it possible that there was a belt of land that was also ice free. After Doggerland sunk into the ocean we may have no way to determine what their popluation might be.This is only one event there have been many of them over time.

   With respect to the effect of even one individual dying within a small group I agree with you also, I did however read an article that expressed the idea that they chose their mates from different groups rather than their own. I see them as a highly social and mobile groups because as the family grows so does their hunting territory,they would in all likelihood rotate the culling between family territories and work together in groups then separate after the hunt.I don't see them as isolated groups several groups might have been within half to a day walk from each other,a runner could pass by many groups in a day. Social interactions are what drives creation,communication/religion/law/art/science all attributes of this species.I am not suggesting any far out ideas,we're not talking highly advanced ancient civilizations or aliens,just that this species and possibly our own may have had greater populations at other times.I am not suggesting multi-millions of people but significantly more than what we are presently aware of.

  As always I enjoy and respect your input and look forward to any information that you may think is relevant as I find this subject quite interesting and look forward to learning more about it.
jmccr8

  .


#252    cormac mac airt

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Posted 23 August 2012 - 07:39 PM

View Postjmccr8, on 23 August 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

Hi Cormac and Swede,

  Thank you for your responses, Cormac I agree with you expression of continuously. As for population based numbers I don't fell that with what we have recovered to date is sufficient to make any real judgement on this matter. Earlier I gave two links tha showed parts of Ireland and Wales were ice free during that last iceage.Doggerland was a part of the land mass is it possible that there was a belt of land that was also ice free. After Doggerland sunk into the ocean we may have no way to determine what their popluation might be.This is only one event there have been many of them over time.

   With respect to the effect of even one individual dying within a small group I agree with you also, I did however read an article that expressed the idea that they chose their mates from different groups rather than their own. I see them as a highly social and mobile groups because as the family grows so does their hunting territory,they would in all likelihood rotate the culling between family territories and work together in groups then separate after the hunt.I don't see them as isolated groups several groups might have been within half to a day walk from each other,a runner could pass by many groups in a day. Social interactions are what drives creation,communication/religion/law/art/science all attributes of this species.I am not suggesting any far out ideas,we're not talking highly advanced ancient civilizations or aliens,just that this species and possibly our own may have had greater populations at other times.I am not suggesting multi-millions of people but significantly more than what we are presently aware of.

  As always I enjoy and respect your input and look forward to any information that you may think is relevant as I find this subject quite interesting and look forward to learning more about it.
jmccr8

.

It's not just a matter of the physical remains, since genetic studies also support low populations amongst early humans.

http://www.livescien...population.html

cormac

The city and citizens, which you yesterday described to us in fiction, we will now transfer to the world of reality. It shall be the ancient city of Athens, and we will suppose that the citizens whom you imagined, were our veritable ancestors, of whom the priest spoke; they will perfectly harmonise, and there will be no inconsistency in saying that the citizens of your republic are these ancient Athenians. --  Plato's Timaeus

#253    jmccr8

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 07:41 PM

Hi Cormac,

  Sorry to take so long in responding, I have been looking for other articles to bring to the thread for discussion.I looked at the link you provided and with those numbers it is hard to imagine that there would be much competition for resources considering the expanse of dispersion.

  i have been hesitant to use this as an example and hope that it is not taken out of context.There is a religious agricultural community here that many years ago had a limited source for potential mates,the members of these communities all shared the same features as they appeared to be of the same family.This had a negative impact on them and in the late 60s and early 70s they would come to the military bases looking for donors with certain physical characteristics that would fit in with their cultural heritage,blond hair, blue eyes,and of course the bigger and stronger the better.I guess that they would have had very little genetic diversity at that time compared to the population living in their country of origin.


#254    Swede

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Posted 25 August 2012 - 11:03 PM

View Postjmccr8, on 25 August 2012 - 07:41 PM, said:

Hi Cormac,

  Sorry to take so long in responding, I have been looking for other articles to bring to the thread for discussion.I looked at the link you provided and with those numbers it is hard to imagine that there would be much competition for resources considering the expanse of dispersion.

  i have been hesitant to use this as an example and hope that it is not taken out of context.There is a religious agricultural community here that many years ago had a limited source for potential mates,the members of these communities all shared the same features as they appeared to be of the same family.This had a negative impact on them and in the late 60s and early 70s they would come to the military bases looking for donors with certain physical characteristics that would fit in with their cultural heritage,blond hair, blue eyes,and of course the bigger and stronger the better.I guess that they would have had very little genetic diversity at that time compared to the population living in their country of origin.

Hi jmccr8 - Apologies for not always understanding the basis for some of your queries. You may find the following recent paper to be rather informative in regards to the social/cultural aspect. Note the procurement-related aspects/habitation patterns.

http://onlinelibrary...11.00376.x/full

.


#255    jmccr8

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Posted 26 August 2012 - 05:36 PM

Hello Swede,

  Yes,thank you for the excellent link, this article shows the types of interactions that I thought were a part of their development.I also came across this article that I thought that I had posted yesterday but for some reason it didn't post.It is quite long but I thought that is was a good read and would like to know what your assessment is of the information presented.

Paleoanthropology

I will also add this link for the use of Red Ocher 200kbp

Sciency Thoughts: Neanderthals using red ochre at least 200 000 years ago.

  I am still curious what circumstance would lead two species to have similar practices of using red ocher as well as head-binding,would these practices be something that they had arrived at independently or would these customs be assumed by one species to another?

As always thanks for your patience.jmccr8





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