293 replies to this topic

[jmccr8]

I found the link that I had deleted and I had overstated the date of 50kbp,it is actually 35kbp,they have found about2,300 stone tools from this site and hope that further investigation will uncover more.

Neanderthal tools reveal advanced technology - Telegraph

jmccr8

[Swede]

jmccr8, on 12 February 2013 - 05:49 AM, said:

Hi,
  I know it has been a while since I have been active in this thread,but it has always been on my mind.I have been trying to find information that would show me qualities that were unique to neandertals or Hss,this has not been as simple as it sounds as they were more similar than not.This doesn't come as a surprise as they diverged from a common ancestor and would have developed with similar social structure and technology.

  I did find some articles that I found interesting and will post links to them,I would like it if those of you who have participated in the past,or any others who share an interest in this subject would respond to any of the information that is put forward.

  I did have two articles on tool-making but deleted instead of copying the link I will try to find it again as it showed a stable long term occupation in England 50kbp and there were several tousand artifacts discovered.This  the link to the one I still have.
On Neandertal Stone Tools & Estimations Of Their Intelligence « Anthropology.net

  This next link shows that Neandertals had a seafood diet much earlier than previously known
Neanderthal man lived on seafood far earlier than previously thought - Telegraph

This following article discusses how far Neandertals spread out over geographic areas
Neanderthal empire grows - Telegraph

  This link discusses cannibalism but I thought that some of the information on dna was interesting
Grisly Scene Gives Clues to Neandertal Family Structure - ScienceNOW

Swede or Cormac I would like your views on this following link,now I will say right off that I am not in agreement with what their projection of longetivity but for the article I was curious as to wheter or not there was any accuracy in the information presented by the author

The Neanderthal Theory of Autism

  This final link describes wooden structures used by Neandertals and suggests that it would identify working transient groups that either returned to this site as a stop-over or was used by several similar working groups as they traveled to and fro.They also suggest that these small groups were part of a larger group that was established elsewhere.

A Very Remote Period Indeed: Neanderthal wooden structures, sleeping areas and group size at Abric Romaní
Thanks for your time
jmccr8

Hi jmccr8,

The source of the "Autism" article is the below:

http://www.rdos.net/eng/asperger.htm

Have reviewed this piece of work and it is riddled with factual errors, unsubstantiated suppositions, and speculation. For example:

Primates originally were very small and evolved during the era of dinosaurs (Emphasis added). Erroneous. See below:

http://anthro.paloma...tes/early_2.htm

Australopithecus is most likely a descendant of Oreopithecus, and lived in Africa 3 million years ago. (Note: Spelling of descendant was corrected from the original, which is incorrect. The supposition itself is unsubstantiated, the date is inaccurate).

Australopithecus anamensis may have been the earliest australopithecine species.  They lived about 4.2-3.9 million years ago in East Africa.

http://anthro.paloma.../australo_2.htm

For more on Oreopithecus:

http://www.pnas.org/...5/8795.full.pdf

http://www.nyu.edu/g...reopithecus.pdf

Based on archaeological evidences, it seems most reasonable to assume that modern humans originated somewhere in Asia. This statement and the material that follows is quite the jumble. If the author is referring to H.s./H.s.s., it is demonstrably incorrect based upon current understandings.

Researchers claim modern man and Neanderthals were isolated for 700,000 years. Inaccurate:

By 300,000 years ago, some of these populations had begun the evolutionary transition that would end up with Neandertals.

http://anthro.paloma.../mod_homo_1.htm

There are numerous other examples. The allusion to matriarchal societies being the result of Neandertal genetic mixing is quite humorous. Will not consume any more space in elaborating. In short, one may wish to place this reference in the circular file.

You may find the following quite current articles to be of interest in regards to your studies:

http://www.sciencene...ted_by_redating

http://popular-archa...bors-says-study

Hope that the above is of assistance.

.

[jmccr8]

Hi Swede,
  Thanks for the links and your evaluation,much appreciated.My apologies for being late in responding,as I have been working extra hours and other commitments.As well I have been a little sidelined as I bought a 3d projector and have spent what little free time that I have had watching some movies,mostly kid's movies because of my grand-daughter but I did manage to see a couple of big guy movies when I have been alone.
  jmccr8

[jmccr8]

Hi All,

  I came across this article and thought I would add it here.Some of the reseach material is based on findings by Svante Poablo of the Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology in Lupzig Germany.The link is quite lengthy but covers a lot of areas of research,but gives the reader a good overview of what is known about Neanderrtals.

  Further on in the link there are a couple of articles on the "pioneer man" or Homo Anticessor having been in Briton 840k-950kbp,Their findings suggest that they numbered in the hundreds to a few thousand at most.Some of the data is quite suggestive and make one wonder if these humans could adapt and live under those conditions is it possible that some may have traveled to different places,islands,continents, that we have not discovered evidence of their presence of yet.


Neanderthals: They were human | Windows Live space

[jmccr8]

I also have this study by Rebecca Wragg Sykes,This paper investigates social structure and trade within the Neandertal culture.In part the study follows lithic trade and manufacturing to determine trade networks and group interactions.These tended to be in the form of blanks or tools that were adaptable and could be used for cores.At the very least given the increase in the archeological evidence of long distance transfers.

Neanderthals 2.0? Evidence for expanded social networks, ethnic diversity and encultured landscapes in the Late Middle Palaeolithic | Rebecca Wragg Sykes - Academia.edu

jmccr8

[lightly]

Hi j ,  interesting info...  i like the part about finding peas and beans on Neanderthal teeth  .    I can't help think...  that  in their familiarity with peas and beans.. someone noticed that a sprouting bean plant was  attached  to (of all things)  a Bean!   I don't recall ever hearing anything about Neanderthals gardening...  but.........   it makes me wonder anyway.

[jmccr8]

Hi Lightly,

  I suppose that it is possible that they grew some foods,but I wouldn't state it as so without some researched or documented study.I had placed a link in another thread some time back that shows that fire was used to clear land so that tubers and edible roots could grow faster,this was determined to have occurred 75-55kbp.

  The thread was "Plant/Human Symbiosis and the Fall of Humanity" and this was the link posted

http://www.smithsoni...-migration.html

Pages 3 and 4 deal with diet
jmccr8

[jmccr8]

I don't know but is it possible that they noticed that if they removed other plants from areas where the roots and tubers or whatever desirable food resources that they would be more bountiful.You really couldn't say that they were agrarian as they weren't physically planting seeds with an expectation to harvest,it would be more like assisting it to be more productive by modifying their environment.

  In the second article about the ancient occupation of Briton in the link in post 274.They speculate that this species of hominid may have adapted to the colder environment by eating more plant in the summer and meat in the winter.Their diet consisted of roots,shellfish,seaweed and tracking grazing animals.

  Charcoal was found at the site but it has not been determined as to whether its source is due to natural or controlled fire.They also imply that they may have worn some protective clothing and built shelters.

  I realize that what I have read to date does not affirm any opinion in my mind other that given their numbers they were obviously not hampered by the changes in their environment and adapted.Could any of this been passed on down to following species of homo.I am not sure if I can word this question properly,and I hope you realize that I only ask as a curiosity.Could these kinds of changes cause that species to evolve into a new species or even more than one species?I guess there is more than one question but I'll just ask one for now.
Thanks
jmccr8

[cormac mac airt]

jmccr8, on 07 May 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

I don't know but is it possible that they noticed that if they removed other plants from areas where the roots and tubers or whatever desirable food resources that they would be more bountiful.You really couldn't say that they were agrarian as they weren't physically planting seeds with an expectation to harvest,it would be more like assisting it to be more productive by modifying their environment.

  In the second article about the ancient occupation of Briton in the link in post 274.They speculate that this species of hominid may have adapted to the colder environment by eating more plant in the summer and meat in the winter.Their diet consisted of roots,shellfish,seaweed and tracking grazing animals.

  Charcoal was found at the site but it has not been determined as to whether its source is due to natural or controlled fire.They also imply that they may have worn some protective clothing and built shelters.

  I realize that what I have read to date does not affirm any opinion in my mind other that given their numbers they were obviously not hampered by the changes in their environment and adapted.Could any of this been passed on down to following species of homo.I am not sure if I can word this question properly,and I hope you realize that I only ask as a curiosity.Could these kinds of changes cause that species to evolve into a new species or even more than one species?I guess there is more than one question but I'll just ask one for now.
Thanks
jmccr8

Yes it's possible since much the same, or at least similar, kind of thing was what became the start of domesticating food crops from what I understand.

What timeframe are you thinking of? The Denisovans, who are more closely related to Neanderthals than us, would have been at best an offshoot very early on. And there's nothing to show that Neanderthals survived long enough to evolve into a more recent species AFAIK.

cormac

[lightly]

jmccr8, on 06 May 2013 - 11:50 PM, said:

Hi Lightly,

  I suppose that it is possible that they grew some foods,but I wouldn't state it as so without some researched or documented study.I had placed a link in another thread some time back that shows that fire was used to clear land so that tubers and edible roots could grow faster,this was determined to have occurred 75-55kbp.

  The thread was "Plant/Human Symbiosis and the Fall of Humanity" and this was the link posted

http://www.smithsoni...-migration.html

Pages 3 and 4 deal with diet
jmccr8

interesting j  ...  Early modern man manipulating the environment to advantage.  Pretty ingenious.

Edited by lightly, 07 May 2013 - 01:27 AM.

[jmccr8]

Hi Cormac,

Thanks for the reply.I really hadn't looked at a time frame that this may have occurred,I was just struck with the question and knew that between 950kbp til now seems like a reasonable amount of time for something to have occurred.I did wonder if they may have been the genus of either the Denisovans or Neanderthals or both.and if they may have interacted with other hominids.

  Based on what little there was in that article and after re-reading the link in post 277 it seemed to make sense to me that they were intuitive enough to manage the growth of their food source these and other practices would carry on to the following species.As the species developed they would modify their knowledge and at some point start saving seeds and sowing them according to the skies and stars.

jmccr8

[jmccr8]

Hi Lightly,

  Early hominid species were quite aware and manipulated stone into tools,we can see that they understood their food source,and even traveled distances to find new mates in order to keep their offspring healthier and protecting their survival.I have much to learn in these subjects and enjoy finding out more.Neanderthals and Hss both evolved with the ability to make tools,hunt,gather food,and I suspect that they may have had some religious ideology.and social construct that preceded them and that they modified.

jmccr8

[cormac mac airt]

jmccr8, on 07 May 2013 - 01:31 AM, said:

Hi Cormac,

Thanks for the reply.Ireally hadn't looked at a time frame that this may have occurred,I was just struck with the question and knew that between 950kbp til now seems like a reasonable amount of time for something to have occurred.I did wonder if they may have been the genus of either the Denisovans or Neanderthals or both.and if they may have interacted with other hominids.

  Based on what little there was in that article and after re-reading the link in post 277 it seemed to make sense to me that they were intuitive enough to manage the growth of their food source these and other practices would carry on to the following species.As the species developed they would modify their knowledge and at some point start saving seeds and sowing them according to the skies and stars.

jmccr8

I only wondered about the timeframe you might be looking at, as it would change the line of Homo in question. Within the last c.1 million years we could be talking about the possibility of extant Homo erectus, H. heidelbergensis, H. neandertalensis, Denisovans, early Homo sapiens or whatever lineage is responsible for the Gawasis Cranium. All of which span an rather large range.

cormac

[jmccr8]

Hi Cormac,

  I had only considered Denisovans and Neanderthals as possibility as the other species of Homo Erectus,H.Hiedelbergenis came out of Africa at a later date than the Homo anticessor is recorded to have been in Britain.My understanding is that the split between Hss and Neanderthals did not originate in the same local as there would have had to have been some conditions that prevailed and cause the species to evolve and adapt.Yes they did occupy some areas in close proximity at some locations in Europe and the Middle-East,but this does not appear to be a time or location that the conditions would have had the effect of causing the split .My understanding of the subject might be skewed so I ask to further my understanding.
Thanks
jmccr8

[cormac mac airt]

jmccr8, on 07 May 2013 - 02:58 AM, said:

Hi Cormac,

  I had only considered Denisovans and Neanderthals as possibility as the other species of Homo Erectus,H.Hiedelbergenis came out of Africa at a later date than the Homo anticessor is recorded to have been in Britain.My understanding is that the split between Hss and Neanderthals did not originate in the same local as there would have had to have been some conditions that prevailed and cause the species to evolve and adapt. Yes they did occupy some areas in close proximity at some locations in Europe and the Middle-East,but this does not appear to be a time or location that the conditions would have had the effect of causing the split .My understanding of the subject might be skewed so I ask to further my understanding.
Thanks
jmccr8

I'm going to assume that you meant an "earlier" date as a "later" date would suggest being closer to our time.

Actually the split between Homo sapiens and Homo neandertalensis appears to have been in Africa according to the most recent genetics study I've read. And since Denisovans appear to have split prior to the Neanderthal/HS split it too would be expected to have occurred in the same area as well. And if your timeframe were, for instance, in the 40,000 BP area then the latest available information on Neanderthals suggest they were extinct at approximately that time while HSS was in Italy by c.45,000 BP and England by c.42,200 BP. Which is why I wondered about the timeframe you might be investigating.

cormac