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Randi's Challenge


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#16    SolarPlexus

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 02:38 AM

View PostSakari, on 14 May 2011 - 01:06 AM, said:

View PostSolarPlexus, on 14 May 2011 - 01:01 AM, said:

Dont be so naive, Randi will never publicly admit he's wrong. We all know this deep inside.

We all know deep inside?....that is proof then.

No, it is an observation. Come on think. Randi is the judge and jury of an outcome he has a *big* personal interest in. No man in his position would rule against himself, the first logical thing you do is make yourself safe through the contract.

You really think Randi has a honest intention of ever finding a genuine psychic??

Edited by SolarPlexus, 14 May 2011 - 02:42 AM.

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#17    Sakari

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 02:39 AM

View PostSolarPlexus, on 14 May 2011 - 02:34 AM, said:

No, it is an observation. Come on think. Randi is the judge and jury of an outcome he has a *big* personal interest in. No man in his position would rule against himself, the first thing you do is make yourself safe through the contract

So, if I said I agreed ( I do not ), what about the other places offering money?....Or just proving it to the World for free?

So, you are mad at Randi and think he is a fraud because he has the final say so.This says someone wanted to prove their ability, but Randi denied it.Are they mad because they did not get the money, or because they did not get to show the world?

They can still show the World.

And again, look at the other applicants, hundreds of them, that did not even make it past their own criteria....It is on the link.

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#18    ShadowSot

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 02:49 AM

JREF and Randi shouldn't be used interchangeably.
  
For example, it is not his money on the line, but the JREF's.

Randi dosn't make final decisions (and actually, isn't usually that involved in the testing, instead the organizers and specialists who are brought in to do the tests usually do that) it's left to the people doing the experiment.

Randi is getting old, and he's not personally involved in the JREF organization as much.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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#19    chaoszerg

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 02:50 AM

I think this is more of a be mad at randi because his test is a slap in the face to those claiming to have strange powers, or those who believe in that sort of stuff.

James is not going to get some random joe bloggs off the street to be a judge because quite frankly many people are gullible. James is offering up a huge amount of money and if I was in his position I would be judge too, or at least find someone of a like sceptical mindedness who is not going to be easily wowed by cheap parlour tricks.



Edit:


Since we are on about randi, here he is having a talk about psychics.


http://www.ted.com/t...ames_randi.html

Edited by chaoszerg, 14 May 2011 - 03:17 AM.


#20    SolarPlexus

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 03:24 AM

View PostSakari, on 14 May 2011 - 02:39 AM, said:

what about the other places offering money?

Im not familiar with them, wanted to make a thread about Randi

View PostSakari, on 14 May 2011 - 02:39 AM, said:

So, you are mad at Randi...

No im not mad at Randi, any man would do the same in his situation

View PostSakari, on 14 May 2011 - 02:39 AM, said:

... and think he is a fraud because he has the final say so.

Yes because he has the final say so.

Thats totally normal from his side, im just saying he is a pseudo-skeptic

Edited by SolarPlexus, 14 May 2011 - 03:25 AM.

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#21    chaoszerg

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 03:33 AM

http://www.randi.org/site/

His website for those interested.


#22    ShadowSot

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 04:03 AM

Quote


Yes because he has the final say so.

Which is just it, he doesn't.

The Million Dollar Challenge director is currently a fellow by the name of Banachek.

The JREF organization does make the final say so, ut this is the organization itself, not Randi.

Which, since it's the JREF's money, makes sense.

Further, if the JREF was doing something shady, I'd expect to hear more from the people being examined, and universally at the exam and afterwards,they will give testimony stating it was a fair test, and usually some reason  for why they failed it.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
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#23    SolarPlexus

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 05:55 AM

View PostShadowSot, on 14 May 2011 - 04:03 AM, said:

Which is just it, he doesn't.

The Million Dollar Challenge director is currently a fellow by the name of Banachek.

The JREF organization does make the final say so, ut this is the organization itself, not Randi.

So what if Banachek is the director of the James Randi Educational Foundation (JREF) ?  Tell me, who is on the top of the Rockefeller Foundation, Judith Rodin or David Rockefeller? Come on this is nonsense. Randi is the Founder and Chair and Banachek is just appointed as the managing director because Randi is old

And it doesnt even matter who is what, it's irrelevant. Randi and his gang (JREF) will never admit they're wrong, look...

Quote

If the Prize is awarded, this would not mean that the JREF acknowledges the existence of the supernatural. (source)


So even if someone meets the Challenge and actually gets the $1.000.000 (unlikely), they still wont admit it! Hahahaha

Edited by SolarPlexus, 14 May 2011 - 05:57 AM.

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#24    ShadowSot

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 07:08 AM

So, you're point is, that despite the JREF doing everything they can to accommodate every person who is willing to take the Challenge, despite the people themselves stating the JREF is very accommodating and very willing to work with them, and the JREF practically stacking everything in the favor of a true psychic entering, you thing they are not faithful to their intent because... they are the one's running it?
Despite no evidence of this, you state they will do so. Most people call that slander.
This isn't a discussion, this is just you shaking your hate stick at a effigy you've created to focus your disgruntlement with James Randi and his organization.

If you want to rant your beef with Randi or the JREF, put it in your blog.

Edited by ShadowSot, 14 May 2011 - 07:18 AM.

It was so much easier to blame it on Them. It was bleakly depressing to think that They were Us. If it was Them, then nothing was anyone's fault. If it was us, what did that make Me? After all, I'm one of Us. I must be. I've certainly never thought of myself as one of Them. No one ever thinks of themselves as one of Them. We're always one of Us. It's Them that do the bad things.
-Terry Pratchett

#25    eight bits

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 09:56 AM

I have often posted against drawing conclusions about non-applicants to the Randi challenge, so perhaps the OP will consider some advice about curbing his enthusiasm.

What Randi does is legal under American law. He is not a crook.

You are correct to look at the rules and ask "what is really being offered here?" If you were actually thinking of participating, then you should ask your own American lawyer.

If, however, we are just discussing this in the abstract, then a judge on YouTube or an anonymous hamster like me will suffice.

The rules offer an opportunity to negotiate an agreement, at your own expense. There is nothing about the test being "truly fair," but if it occurs, then you will have agreed to it. There is nothing about the test being "truly scientific," either. And, as is typical of offers to negotiate, there is no guarantee that an agreement will actually be reached. If one is reached in this offer, there is no limit on how long that will take or cost you in the meantime.

Some constraints on what is open for negotiation are announced in the rules. Many people would decline to apply on those grounds alone. For example, the rules move the issue from "whether a person has any genuine abilities" to "whether a person can perform a specifc feat on demand, in public, twice." Those are not the same question.

(The classic hypothetical example, of course, is this test of whether some adult human beings have the ability, rare in the animal kingdom, to walk upright.

You are asked to walk the full length of a rigid and sturdy steel beam, 10 meters long. You are to walk back and forth, once in each direction, supporting your entire weight only with your feet. The walkway is 50 cm wide, clean, horizontal, level, and flat. You must complete the circuit within three minutes.

Can you do this? Not everyone can, but some people say they can. Would you perform that feat for $ 1,000,000?

OK. Let's negotiate some specifics. The beam will be suspended 100 meters in the open air over a concrete surface, without any net.

OH! Unfair example. Randi wouldn't be like that. Maybe not, but the issue is whether there is anything in the rules that prevents him being "like that." No, there isn't. And there is no court in the United States that will order him to pay you a million for walking along any old beam, when that isn't what he offered.)

The original purpose of the Randi challenge, apart from promoting Randi's stage career, was to be a honey trap for crooks who either prey on the credulous, or who induce the general public to buy books, etc. based on false claims about their authors.

Nobody has gotten anywhere near the final round, and there are very few serious applicants. What can be inferred from that is that crooks know that Randi is probably at least as good an illusionist as they are. Not only will they get no money, they will be publicly exposed as crooks.

If you really were psychic, however, then you would know that Randi isn't going to give you any money, ever. Besides, there are plenty of legal ways to make a million with your gifts. And if your ability happens not to be psychic, then you can always hire a lawyer, who'll tell you the same thing.

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#26    IamsSon

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 12:47 PM

View PostSakari, on 14 May 2011 - 02:03 AM, said:

Good point.....

I now declare myself a " certain ".....:tu:
So you have absolute, undeniable proof then?

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#27    markdohle

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 01:02 PM

View PostSakari, on 13 May 2011 - 11:56 PM, said:

"Skeptics" have facts and proven evidence that back up their " claims "......

Big difference here.

Real "Skeptics" yes.  Then there are those who believe that some things are simply impossible and go from there.  Randi could be like that.....

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#28    chaoszerg

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 02:21 PM

View Postmarkdohle, on 14 May 2011 - 01:02 PM, said:

Real "Skeptics" yes.  Then there are those who believe that some things are simply impossible and go from there.  Randi could be like that.....

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Not everything is possible but there are people who like to delude themselves and think anything is possible. I think people are mainly upset with Randi because he is waging a crusade against all those pretend psychics out there role playing that they have super powers and especially gunning for those who try and make money off it. He does not just gun for psychics though, he goes after fake medical treatments also and other things. If people want to be angry at Randi and make him shut up, then they should just go show their supposed real powers in a controlled environment and do the tests that are asked of them instead of crying evil skeptics, or spewing out excuses.


Heck some of the people in the metaphysic section should be able to put him in his place with their supposed weather controlling abilities, fire bending abilities, psy energy weapon abilities and other supposed super powers they claim to have. I am sure no one will step up to it though.


#29    markdohle

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 02:56 PM

View Postchaoszerg, on 14 May 2011 - 02:21 PM, said:

Not everything is possible but there are people who like to delude themselves and think anything is possible. I think people are mainly upset with Randi because he is waging a crusade against all those pretend psychics out there role playing that they have super powers and especially gunning for those who try and make money off it. He does not just gun for psychics though, he goes after fake medical treatments also and other things. If people want to be angry at Randi and make him shut up, then they should just go show their supposed real powers in a controlled environment and do the tests that are asked of them instead of crying evil skeptics, or spewing out excuses.


Heck some of the people in the metaphysic section should be able to put him in his place with their supposed weather controlling abilities, fire bending abilities, psy energy weapon abilities and other supposed super powers they claim to have. I am sure no one will step up to it though.


I think your point is valid, however, our world views do limit us as well as give us a hold on reality.  There are I believe real deals out there but for those who believe it is impossible for anything 'other' to happen, they will not see it.  It is like people who do not believe love is possible, well, they live in a loveless world.  Below is something from a web page I like.  I think Victor is on t something.

Here is something from Victors's Zammit web page:  http://www.victorzammit.com/

BRILLIANT EVIDENCE OF MATERIALIZATIONS OF DAVID THOMPSON: We investigated materialization medium David Thompson weekly for 15 months. But the most spectacular evidence for the afterlife was when my wife Wendy's father materialized announcing his name. He was in the 'flesh'. He was speaking as when a loved one talks to you. It was his voice. It was his mannerism. No one in the experiment knew of Wendy's (pictured) maiden name. No one knew about the intimate circumstances raised by Wendy's father about their early life; no one knew about very special relationship she had with her brother. There was physical contact when her father kissed Wendy on the forehead. Further, Wendy's father materialised a piece of paper with his signature on it - which perfectly matched his signature on existing documents. Absolutely, that kind of evidence would have sent an accused to the gallows in a courtroom situation. Of course, the spiritually blind, deaf and dumb - and other dummies, would not understand the hugely great value of this magnificent materialization evidence.

MORE MATERIALIZATIONS: UNREBUTTABLE, ABSOLUTE, POWERFUL AFTERLIFE EVIDENCE : another most memorable materialization of David Thompson was when my own younger sister Carmen materialized. Carmen crossed over just more than twelve months ago. She was familiar with materializations because she sat twice with David's Circle of the Silver Cord. Carmen was there, fully materialized 'in the flesh', she knew about some very intimate circumstances no one knew about during this materialization experiment. Carmen also was the artist to do a picture of David Thompson's guide from the afterlife 'William' (pictured, left). Names were mentioned of her husband and others. Other very special information was was also mentioned about the circumstances which happened to her before her death. All this spectacular evidence meant that she was who she claimed to be. I repeat: materialization of afterlife entities is the best, most convincing evidence for the afterlife we have to-day.

Edited by markdohle, 14 May 2011 - 02:56 PM.


#30    chaoszerg

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Posted 14 May 2011 - 03:38 PM

Quote

I think your point is valid, however, our world views do limit us as well as give us a hold on reality.  There are I believe real deals out there but for those who believe it is impossible for anything 'other' to happen, they will not see it.  It is like people who do not believe love is possible, well, they live in a loveless world.  Below is something from a web page I like.  I think Victor is on t something.

Even Randi has said himself there could be real deals out there, but the only ones really showing up are the liars and the people who have deluded themselves into thinking they have some sort of powers.


As for evidence of the afterlife in that link I seemed to notice that it is something that wishes to mix religion and science, which is not a smart thing to do. I would love for such things to be real like psychic powers and I am hoping that somewhere out there a genuine person will step up and show the world that such things are real. Unfortunately though all we have at the moment are liars and people who genuinely believe they have some sort of power, but really dont.

Its not that scientists just do not believe it and refuse to see any evidence. There just is not any convincing evidence that such things are real and also many of these supposed people with psychic powers have no way of measuring their own power, or have a understanding of how other factors can influence their own tests that they do to convince themselves. That is why such things have to be done under a controlled environment by the correct people and they have to be strict on the test and conditions.

Edited by chaoszerg, 14 May 2011 - 03:39 PM.





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