Jump to content




Welcome to Unexplained Mysteries! Please sign in or create an account to start posting and to access a host of extra features.


* * * - - 2 votes

Roswell was Soviet plot to create US panic


  • Please log in to reply
438 replies to this topic

#91    psyche101

psyche101

    Conspiracy Realist

  • Member
  • 32,072 posts
  • Joined:30 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oz

  • If you stop to think, Remember to start again

Posted 07 June 2011 - 02:54 AM

View Post747400, on 06 June 2011 - 04:39 PM, said:

Really, I think ET is much, much more likely.


Are you just being facetious?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#92    cassandra5655

cassandra5655

    Alien Embryo

  • Member
  • Pip
  • 32 posts
  • Joined:07 Jun 2011

Posted 07 June 2011 - 03:29 AM

I have lurked for quite a while on this forum. In particular I have researched roswell in great detail. I can safely say that psyche101 simply does not know what he/she is talking about some things when it comes to roswell. I don't know if he/she is a disinfo agent, or just genuinely misinformed. In one thread I recall psyche mentioning that mac brazel said he saw eyelets and pieces of rubber and wood. While this is true, you fail to mention the most critical piece of information, mac was interrigated for several days and mentioned this because he was forced to. The police were right outside the door while mac was basically forced to say this on the radio. If you did any real research you would know his original testimony revealed that he never seen anything before like the material he found. Also, mac was no idiot, he knew what a weather ballon looks like, hell even a monkey can figure out what a balloon looks like. If fact mac had found several ballons on his land before.

The smoking gun for me is the original newspaper article. "RAAF captures flying saucer", do you have any idea what it would take to put that in the paper? People have reputations on the line and back in those days then you would be looked at like a clown for putting something like that in the paper if you couldn't back it up. People would think you were a looney. So you can be damn sure that a high ranking officer like marcel genuinely believed he had a flying saucer on his hands. Jesse Marcel was a high ranking officer, he would know what a balloon looks like, what a V2 rocket looks like, what a horten wing looks like. The material that those vehicles are made of is instantly recognizable. Yet this material was different. So much so in fact that he even took some home to show his wife and kids. Now just think for a moment. That MUST have been some pretty amazing stuff if you are going to take home a bunch of debris home to show your family? There is no question, that Marcel genuinely believed the craft was a flying saucer, so much so, he was willing to put his reputation on the line and report it the the newspaper.

The mogul explanation is preposterous. MOgul is practically the same thing as a weather balloon, the only differece is the measuring device that hangs from the balloon. Both measuring devices are still attached to a balloon. You know the big inflatable part? You know the part that screams balloon? You know the part that a monkey can figure out what it is? The mogul explanation for the roswell crash is quite frankly an insult to the intelligence of roswell researchers. I mean just stop and think for a moment. The very idea that multiple high ranking officials confused a giant inflatable balloon with a flying saucer??? Oh and that Jesse Marcel took pieces of the balloon home to show his family??? Hahahahahaaaa.

Oh and we are told the bodies were supposedly the 6+ foot plastic dummies. Derp derp derp, oh whats that? Thats everybody's IQ dropping a few points. How the hell can you confuse a 6foot plastic dummy for a small 4foot child size creature with an oversize head? Not to mention the decomposition/smell that was reportedly involved with the cadavers.

Here's the kicker though, imagine the sight of hundreds of men, shoulder to shoulder, combing through a field for all pieces of evidence they can find. Now imagine this being carried out for weeks. They basically vaccumed that place up. Don't you get it? Whatever crashed there was far more important than some old dumb project mogul balloon. I mean really, just stop for a moment and picture this in your mind. Hundreds of men, shoulder to shoulder on their hands and knees picking through the grass for any possible crash debris they can find. How often does this happen? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that whatever crashed there was pretty exotic. Exotic enough for every single last piece to be recovered at all costs. I even recall that people who took crash debris as "souvanieurs" were later contacted and forced to hand over the material.

The recent theory that roswell was the result of mendele/stalin is quiet frankly, a joke. If people did any research you would know that soviets didn't have even close the technology to make this happen. Not even close. The structure of DNA wasn't even discovered until 1953, making genetic engineering impossible. Megele had strong anti-communist beliefs and would basically have nothing to do with stalin. Quoted by Accipiter, "Yeah, because the Russians had all of those super jet airplanes that could be flown by remote control 10,000 kilometers across entire oceans in 1947.  Too bad that they immediately forgot how to make them for the Korean War and other such times, though." Not to mention flying over 300 miles inland undetected in radar thick territory. In other words, the plane would have been intercepted and shot down. Simply put, if the soviets had the capability to do this, in 1947, I wouldn't be speaking english right now, I would be speaking Russian, if you know what I mean.

Lets for a moment suspend disbelief and ask ourselves this question. Why would mendele/stalin team up and invest time/money into a stunt like this a full 2 years after the war? Apparantly stalin wanted to "scare" the americans akin to "war of the worlds" radio show? To me this sounds stupid, and heres why. The U.S. air force would be able to tell immediately if the craft was of human manufacture. The soviets don't have access to exotic materials or technology, so when the craft is discovered, it will look like any ordinary plane crash, bent steel, wire, glass, you know... common debris. It most definitely wouldn't look like the debris from an extraterrestrial craft. The deformed bodies are another stupid idea, even if the exterior of the bodies were deformed in order to look like aliens, the internal organs would be a dead giveaway. In other words, as soon as the autopsy is carried out on the bodies, they will be confirmed human from the identical organs and bone structure. Not to mention DNA composition.

So, to me if the soviets were going to pull a stunt like this, it would make more sense to crash the craft near a populated area, like a city, if they were trying to scare people. Why crash in the middle of the desert near an army base? An army base has people who know what crash debris looks like. An army base has a hospital that perform autopsies. An army base will know almost immediately that this is some sort of sick prank. Seems like a giant waste of time for stalin/mendele doesn't it??? It doesn't just sound like a waste of time, it sounds completely rediculous. Far, far, far more outlandish than the thought of a legitimate alien craft crash landing along with extraterrestrial bodies.

The truth is, in my opinion, that this whole stalin/mendele theory was made-up and perpetrated by the author Annie Jacobson to create a stir in the ufo community as a marketing tactic to promote her new book. It's not like it is the meat and potatoes of her book either, she briefly mentions it near the end of her book. It's like something that she just tacked on, last minute. If the story was real, don't you think she would have created an entire book dedicated to it? And of coarse her source is anonymous... I saw that coming from a mile away. It just screams made up. In my opinion, if you are going to propose such a radical theory, you need actual legitimate sources for your information. It isn't just good journalism practice, it's common sense.


#93    booNyzarC

booNyzarC

    Forum Divinity

  • Closed
  • 13,536 posts
  • Joined:18 Aug 2010
  • Gender:Not Selected

Posted 07 June 2011 - 04:35 AM

Welcome to UM cassandra.  I searched very hard through your post to find something that I could agree with.  Here it is:

View Postcassandra5655, on 07 June 2011 - 03:29 AM, said:

--
The recent theory that roswell was the result of mendele/stalin is quiet frankly, a joke.
--
The rest...   well, hopefully you'll actually find a way to substantiate some of it at some point but I won't hold my breath.  Until then, welcome to UM and I look forward to your future participation.

Cheers.


#94    psyche101

psyche101

    Conspiracy Realist

  • Member
  • 32,072 posts
  • Joined:30 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oz

  • If you stop to think, Remember to start again

Posted 07 June 2011 - 05:25 AM

View Postcassandra5655, on 07 June 2011 - 03:29 AM, said:

I have lurked for quite a while on this forum. In particular I have researched roswell in great detail. I can safely say that psyche101 simply does not know what he/she is talking about some things when it comes to roswell.

Hello Cassandra

I am sorry about your manners. Way to set the tone there.
It seems you have not done as much research as you thought, lets delve a little deeper shall we. I must say I am holding a similar opinion of yourself, but in the interest of our first conversation, I shall refrain from commenting further right now.

View Postcassandra5655, on 07 June 2011 - 03:29 AM, said:

I don't know if he/she is a disinfo agent, or just genuinely misinformed. In one thread I recall psyche mentioning that mac brazel said he saw eyelets and pieces of rubber and wood. While this is true, you fail to mention the most critical piece of information, mac was interrigated for several days and mentioned this because he was forced to. The police were right outside the door while mac was basically forced to say this on the radio. If you did any real research you would know his original testimony revealed that he never seen anything before like the material he found. Also, mac was no idiot, he knew what a weather ballon looks like, hell even a monkey can figure out what a balloon looks like. If fact mac had found several ballons on his land before.

:rolleyes: Yes that is it, I am on the US Government payroll as an Australian citizen. Gee, not much gets past you does it! I shall have to stay on my toes :lol: And you will notice under my Avatar that I have boy bits. Been here for years you say? You never noticed this?

Ridiculous conjecture. This "critical information" that you allude to is hearsay, and few agree on a time frame. We have testimony that reaches from a few hours to days. Forced to say this on the radio? What on earth are you talking about? Brazel said this when interviewed by the Roswell Daily Chronicle on July 9, 1947. No Police were outside the door, military escorted him to the premises some say, and freedom of speech was on his side with witnesses. Why would Police being doing a job that as you described would be carried out by military personel anyway?
Mac knew what a weather balloon looked like, but could not possibly be familiar with MOGUL components, if he did indeed see any. One member you have missed input from altogether is Lost Shaman, which makes me think you have not been perusing the forum for a long time at all, you just read this thread, didn't you. In fact I would not be surprised to find that you were "put up to this". If you had been following the Roswell conversation on here, you would know that most sensible people in here give the CIC hypothesis by Lost Shaman much possibility as opposed to the more popular theories of MOGUL and ET.

View Postcassandra5655, on 07 June 2011 - 03:29 AM, said:

The smoking gun for me is the original newspaper article. "RAAF captures flying saucer", do you have any idea what it would take to put that in the paper? People have reputations on the line and back in those days then you would be looked at like a clown for putting something like that in the paper if you couldn't back it up. People would think you were a looney. So you can be damn sure that a high ranking officer like marcel genuinely believed he had a flying saucer on his hands. Jesse Marcel was a high ranking officer, he would know what a balloon looks like, what a V2 rocket looks like, what a horten wing looks like. The material that those vehicles are made of is instantly recognizable. Yet this material was different. So much so in fact that he even took some home to show his wife and kids. Now just think for a moment. That MUST have been some pretty amazing stuff if you are going to take home a bunch of debris home to show your family? There is no question, that Marcel genuinely believed the craft was a flying saucer, so much so, he was willing to put his reputation on the line and report it the the newspaper.

It would be about as hard to put in the paper as this headline:

Posted Image

And do you honestly think a reporter is going to be concerned about the truthfulness of his headline where sales are concerned? Well at least I can see you are not a disinformation agent or you would not say something so silly, just not very realistic.

The material that Marcel took home is indeed interesting. Did you know that Jesse Marcel Senior and Jesse Marcel Jr. could not agree on what it looked like? Marcel Snr. went to his grave disagreeing with his son over the alleged beams. One says they were I beams, the other says square beams. They never did agree. That does not sound like the debris was all that important of they could not agree on an obvious detail, wouldn't you say? And Mrs. Brazel thought the debris was so interesting that she swept it off the back porch as rubbish! I know my wife can be a clean nut when she puts her mind to it, but she would not sweep a Flying Saucer of the back porch. In fact the material may still be there as a concrete slab was poured right there a short time later. Nobody seems to think it is worth ripping up for a look see though. His daughter Betty Brazel also said what she saw looked like a balloon which had burst.
Marcel also said alot of things that were not true. Flying hours, service, and academic accomplishments all form part of his embellishments. Kevin Randle has a story about these embellishments at his blog. If he was truthful to the very end, why did he cite these embellishments?

View Postcassandra5655, on 07 June 2011 - 03:29 AM, said:

The mogul explanation is preposterous. MOgul is practically the same thing as a weather balloon, the only differece is the measuring device that hangs from the balloon. Both measuring devices are still attached to a balloon. You know the big inflatable part? You know the part that screams balloon? You know the part that a monkey can figure out what it is? The mogul explanation for the roswell crash is quite frankly an insult to the intelligence of roswell researchers. I mean just stop and think for a moment. The very idea that multiple high ranking officials confused a giant inflatable balloon with a flying saucer??? Oh and that Jesse Marcel took pieces of the balloon home to show his family??? Hahahahahaaaa.

What about this officer? Ever heard of Irving Newton?

Quote

I told them that this was a balloon and a RAWIN.  I believed this because I had seen many of these before.  They were normally launched by a special crew and followed by a ground radar unit.  They provided a higher altitude winds aloft.  We did not use them at Fort Worth.  However, I was familiar with them because we used them and their products on various projects in which I was involved.  These were used mostly on special projects and overseas.  The balloon was made out of a rubber type expandable material and when launched was about six to eight feet across.  When the balloons got to altitude they expanded to twenty feet or more.  the target was used for radar reflections and I believe each leg of the target was approximately 48 inches.  It resembled a child's Jack (like a child's ball and jacks set) with a metallic material between the legs.  The legs were made of material appearing to be like balsa wood kite sticks but much tougher.
  While I was examining the debris, Major Marcel was picking up pieces of the target sticks and trying to convince me that some notations on the sticks were alien writings.  There were figures on the sticks lavender or pink in color, appeared to be weather faded markings with no rhyme or reason.  He did not convince me these were alien writings.
  I was convinced at the time that this was a balloon with a RAWIN target and remain convinced.
  I remember hearing the General tell someone to cancel the flight, the flight to Wright Patterson.

Are you saying Irving Newton was less intelligent than a Monkey? He was not the only "official" to say the Alien story is bonkers. You have only considered the testimony that agrees with your conclusion.

The MOGUL explanation is a good one - to the folks that can wrap their heads around it anyway. I understand it might be a little too much for you at face value. It does not stand up when comparing it with Lost Shamans CIC hypothesis, but it is a darn deal more sensible than ET ranting. Is this your MOGUL argument? Marcel would have know what it was? Did you know Marcel was intelligence at Roswell base? Considering this nugget of information, I would hope that you might have a good look at the BE thread, and Lost Shamans Intel Ops hypothesis.
Do you know why MOGUL falls down? Ask nice and I will tell you a real reason why MOGUL has a big hole in it. Not silly ranting about who would know what this and that looked like. Real information.

View Postcassandra5655, on 07 June 2011 - 03:29 AM, said:

Oh and we are told the bodies were supposedly the 6+ foot plastic dummies. Derp derp derp, oh whats that? Thats everybody's IQ dropping a few points. How the hell can you confuse a 6foot plastic dummy for a small 4foot child size creature with an oversize head? Not to mention the decomposition/smell that was reportedly involved with the cadavers.

Derp derp?

Dummies without arms, legs or heads are much less than 6 foot. And you are refusing a medical explanation for a tale of Aliens? Perhaps derp derp might be the best thing to say here? Memory is indeed altered by trauma, do you dispute that? And the smell claim come from Glenn Dennis does it not? Should I start laughing right now?
You do know about the major air crashes at the base which this explanation is based on don't you? Medically the theory is sound, I would love to see your paper refuting it. Whilst you are at it, can you give me a photo of an Alien for comparison? Or are you simply preferring one claim over another? Surely not, as that would be in effect, cherry picking, wouldn't it now.

View Postcassandra5655, on 07 June 2011 - 03:29 AM, said:

Here's the kicker though, imagine the sight of hundreds of men, shoulder to shoulder, combing through a field for all pieces of evidence they can find. Now imagine this being carried out for weeks. They basically vaccumed that place up. Don't you get it? Whatever crashed there was far more important than some old dumb project mogul balloon. I mean really, just stop for a moment and picture this in your mind. Hundreds of men, shoulder to shoulder on their hands and knees picking through the grass for any possible crash debris they can find. How often does this happen? It doesn't take a genius to figure out that whatever crashed there was pretty exotic. Exotic enough for every single last piece to be recovered at all costs. I even recall that people who took crash debris as "souvanieurs" were later contacted and forced to hand over the material.

Did these military men not have to disband and send away civillians - as the story goes? I would like to see you back that tale of having to return crash debris with a reputable link. People were there before the military arrived. How did they know who these people were that came and went? Psyops? The Men who stare at Goats? Dont tell me - CCTV on the crashed craft was still operational. Am I getting warm yet?
Hundreds of men hey! Must have been nobody left at WPAFB! Any proof of this claim, or just a story you heard somewhere?
Regardless, the debris field is not intrinsic evidence to the end result. For all we know, it may not so much as have existed. Can you show me a picture of it? All these civillians, press, military, surely you can back your claim of the debris field?

View Postcassandra5655, on 07 June 2011 - 03:29 AM, said:

The recent theory that roswell was the result of mendele/stalin is quiet frankly, a joke. If people did any research you would know that soviets didn't have even close the technology to make this happen. Not even close. The structure of DNA wasn't even discovered until 1953, making genetic engineering impossible. Megele had strong anti-communist beliefs and would basically have nothing to do with stalin. Quoted by Accipiter, "Yeah, because the Russians had all of those super jet airplanes that could be flown by remote control 10,000 kilometers across entire oceans in 1947.  Too bad that they immediately forgot how to make them for the Korean War and other such times, though." Not to mention flying over 300 miles inland undetected in radar thick territory. In other words, the plane would have been intercepted and shot down. Simply put, if the soviets had the capability to do this, in 1947, I wouldn't be speaking english right now, I would be speaking Russian, if you know what I mean.

Lets for a moment suspend disbelief and ask ourselves this question. Why would mendele/stalin team up and invest time/money into a stunt like this a full 2 years after the war? Apparantly stalin wanted to "scare" the americans akin to "war of the worlds" radio show? To me this sounds stupid, and heres why. The U.S. air force would be able to tell immediately if the craft was of human manufacture. The soviets don't have access to exotic materials or technology, so when the craft is discovered, it will look like any ordinary plane crash, bent steel, wire, glass, you know... common debris. It most definitely wouldn't look like the debris from an extraterrestrial craft. The deformed bodies are another stupid idea, even if the exterior of the bodies were deformed in order to look like aliens, the internal organs would be a dead giveaway. In other words, as soon as the autopsy is carried out on the bodies, they will be confirmed human from the identical organs and bone structure. Not to mention DNA composition.

So, to me if the soviets were going to pull a stunt like this, it would make more sense to crash the craft near a populated area, like a city, if they were trying to scare people. Why crash in the middle of the desert near an army base? An army base has people who know what crash debris looks like. An army base has a hospital that perform autopsies. An army base will know almost immediately that this is some sort of sick prank. Seems like a giant waste of time for stalin/mendele doesn't it??? It doesn't just sound like a waste of time, it sounds completely rediculous. Far, far, far more outlandish than the thought of a legitimate alien craft crash landing along with extraterrestrial bodies.

The truth is, in my opinion, that this whole stalin/mendele theory was made-up and perpetrated by the author Annie Jacobson to create a stir in the ufo community as a marketing tactic to promote her new book. It's not like it is the meat and potatoes of her book either, she briefly mentions it near the end of her book. It's like something that she just tacked on, last minute. If the story was real, don't you think she would have created an entire book dedicated to it? And of coarse her source is anonymous... I saw that coming from a mile away. It just screams made up. In my opinion, if you are going to propose such a radical theory, you need actual legitimate sources for your information. It isn't just good journalism practice, it's common sense.

I take it you missed the very first post, and how everyone pretty much agreed from there? It bears repeating, it said:

Quote

Men come from Mars and women are from Venus, but surely this story comes from Uranus ? :wacko:  
( :lol: Kudos Habitat)

Your post is getting a bit ridiculous, every response on here is that the Russian connection seems very unlikely. Can you tell me who has supported the notion? Albeit no stranger than ET, I do not see any support for this claim at all outside of a tongue in cheek comment. That is because it is based on the same rubbish the ETH is. Hearsay and conjecture. As for the question of the middle of nowhere, they would have been quite close to the worlds only nuclear capable bomber group. A good enough reason wouldn't you say? That is if the story could be at all substantiated.

But as I mentioned throughout the post, you have missed the boat altogether here. Try going through the BE thread part 2, and search Lost Shaman, and you will see where this forum, thanks to Lost Shaman, has far advanced from the conjecture you are repeating, that has already been argued to death. If your poor little jailed mind can get out for just a second, you will find this incredibly enlightening, and will clear up the muddy mystery that has surrounded Roswell for so long, that we, and largely the media, have created for ourselves.
Have a good day, and I do hope we can get along better than this in the future. For Pete's sakes Cassandra, if that be your name, this is a discussion forum. Coming in with "gloves on" is neither necessary, desired, not warranted. I do hope future exchanges can be more amicable. I do not blame you for having this view, the media has propagated the ridiculous ideal for decades as it is a great cash cow, but that does not explain your manners nor your claim as to being some sort of expert on Roswell, which you clearly are not. Try reading posts by Paxus, and Quillus. They are good, nay great role models that display how two sides of the fence can get along just fine, and even move forward. Good luck to you.

Cheers.

Edited by psyche101, 07 June 2011 - 05:33 AM.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#95    skyeagle409

skyeagle409

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 31,295 posts
  • Joined:14 Apr 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Keep Your Mach Up and Check Six

Posted 07 June 2011 - 05:30 AM

**EDIT**

**Do not make irrelevant posts.  If you are not going to bother to read the purpose of the post you are responding to, don't bother posting.**


Edited by aquatus1, 07 June 2011 - 05:34 AM.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#96    psyche101

psyche101

    Conspiracy Realist

  • Member
  • 32,072 posts
  • Joined:30 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oz

  • If you stop to think, Remember to start again

Posted 07 June 2011 - 05:41 AM

Aquatus1, you are a God amongst MODs.

:nw:

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#97    skyeagle409

skyeagle409

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 31,295 posts
  • Joined:14 Apr 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Keep Your Mach Up and Check Six

Posted 07 June 2011 - 05:53 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 06 June 2011 - 12:50 AM, said:

In 1945? 46?

And no, it turned out we did not need all of the projects running, only one was successful, but that is how you back yourself up isn't it? One does not leave something as important as defending the country against possible atomic threats does one? One has back up plans, doesn't one?

It was well known that the Soviet's first blast could be detected by air samples, and that is how the Soviet's frist blast was detected. Project Mogul was nothing more than research, and not anything to do with spying on the Soviets.

Quote

Just because a plane finally made the detection that the US military were listening to for years, does not mean all other projects devoted to listening did not exist.

But,, Project Mogul was nothing more than a research project. As mentioned before, its experiments were posted in newspapers around the country and, Mogul balloons had questionnairs attached so ordinary civilians who recovered Project Mogul balloons, could add their own data input such as time and location and of the decent rate, etc. In fact, Mogul balloons were recovered by ordinary civilians for rewards and reward tags were attached to Mogul balloons as well.

What it all means is this, Project Mogul was not indicative of a classified program,. You don't involve ordinary civilians without securtiy clearances in any classified program, and yet, ordinary civilans became involved in the recovery of Project Mogul balloons. When I read where the Air Force has said that Project Mogul was a classfied program, then I knew that a cover-up was in progress, because that is not what the Air Force taught us in regards to classifed prorams in our classes.

Quote

God help us all. One wonders what you will be like when you return from your personal Mecca. Not too much to say about your own service record there huh? The plot is thickening.

Well, I am leaving Texas  soon after 3 1/2 years and heading back home to California and Roswell will happen be on the road on my way home as I pass through New Mexico.

Quote

And according to those involved in the Roswell incident and the surrounding area, there were balloons as well. Depends on who you speak to doesn't it.

Balloon projects were conducted in the area, and I might add that the balloon teams in New Mexico were also reporting obserrving and  tracking flying saucers during their experiments and of course, one of them was none other than Charles Moore, who reported tracking a flying saucer,  and Charles Moore's sighting was confirmed by other scientist who have  worked with him  as well.

So what we have here is, not  only were civilians and military personnel reporting flying saucers over the area in New Mexico, but balloons scientist have now made it known that they were also observing and tracking flying saucers as well.

Charles Moores report can be read here.

Quote

LIFE MAGAZINE, April 7, 1952


HAVE WE VISITORS FROM SPACE?


The Air Force is now ready to concede that many saucer and fireball sightings still defy explanation; here LIFE offers some scientific evidence that there is a real case for interplanetary saucers.



INCIDENT 3. On April 24,1949 at 10:20 a.m., a group of five technicians under the general supervision of J. Gordon Vaeth, an aeronautical engineer employed by the Office of Naval Research, were preparing to launch a Skyhook balloon near Arrey, N. Mex.  A small balloon was sent up first to check the weather.  Charles B. Moore Jr., an aerologist of General Mills Inc. (pioneers in cosmic ray research) was tracking the weather balloon through a theodolite -- a 25-power telescopic instrument, which gives degrees of azimuth and elevation (horizontal and vertical position) for any object it is sighted on.  At 10:30 a.m. Moore leaned back from the theodolite to glance at the balloon with his naked eye.  Suddenly he saw a whitish elliptical object, apparently much higher than the balloon, and moving, in the opposite direction.  At once he picked the object up in his theodolite at 45 degrees of elevation and 210 degrees of azimuth, and tracked it east at the phenomenal rate of 5 d of azimuth-change per second as it dropped swiftly to an elevation of 25 d.  The Object appeared to be an ellipsoid roughly two and a half times as long as it was wide.  Suddenly it swung abruptly upward and rushed out of sight in a few seconds.  Moore had tracked it for about 60 seconds altogether.  The other members of his crew confirmed his report.  No sound was heard, no vapor trail was seen.  The object, according to rough estimations by Moore and his colleagues, was about 56 miles above the earth, 100 feet long and was traveling at seven miles per second.  [Note:  This is the same Charles B. Moore who is now debunking the Roswell UFO crash object of June/July 1947 as nothing more than one of his secret Mogul balloons that he helped launch.]


  EVALUATION. No known optical or atmospheric phenomenon fits the facts.  A natural object traveling at seven miles per second has never been seen to make a sudden upward turn.  There is no known or projected source of silent, vaporless power for such a machine.  No human being could have borne the tremendous "G" load brought to bear on the craft during its abrupt vertical veer.

My link

In addition:


Project Mogul UFO Sightings


One of the ironies of using Project Mogul to try to explain away the Roswell case and other New Mexico sightings is that Mogul and later Skyhook balloon personnel themselves contributed many high-quality UFO sightings.


One very famous Mogul sighting involved Charles Moore on April 24, 1949.  An additional irony here is that this is the same Charles Moore that has been trying so hard in the present-day to debunk the Roswell caseas one of his Mogul balloons.  Moore's sighting was written up in the equally famous 1952 LIFE Magazine article of high-quality UFO reports and in a 1950 TRUE Magazine article by Naval Commander Robert B. McLaughlin, head of the Naval missile program at White Sands (who unequivocally stated that the flying saucers being spotted by White Sands personnel, including himself, were not only real but extraterrestrial in origin).  Moore's sighting is also found in a number of government documents, including those of the CIA, whose scientists were very impressed by it.

My link

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#98    skyeagle409

skyeagle409

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 31,295 posts
  • Joined:14 Apr 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Keep Your Mach Up and Check Six

Posted 07 June 2011 - 06:00 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 06 June 2011 - 12:39 AM, said:

And I have repeatedly asked you to produce one of my unclassified letters so that you can demonstrate how a private communique` is public domain. You refuse to answer this because you cannot, and it demonstrates the validity of your straw man here. What you have is a letter that someone got a hold of way after the fact, which proves nothing. Very hypocritical of you to consistently avoid the challenge I set for you to prove your point, when you keeping asking Boon to keep doing his math over and again in the BE thread. How about we see some effort from you, and not your constant appeal to authority?

So post the letter I wrote and prove me wrong or cease and desist your ranting and raving would you.

I have repeatedly warned you that I will use logic and reasoning against the nonsense you post.

I have been involved in classified matter while serving in the Air Force and in fact, I faced OSI interviews to vouch for the characters of my co-workers who were to be sent to secret bases within the United States, and, I have well aware of how we conduct classified projects within the Air For rce, which is why I have stated for the record that  Project Mogul was not a classified project by any means and was never indicative of any classified program.

You do not allow ordinary civilians with no security clearances to even come near any classified project and yet, Project Mogul folks allowed ordinary civilians to recover Mogul balloons for reward and to even add their own input on Mogul balloon questionnaires.

What I can say about all of that is, the Air Force did a fantastic job of duping many folks on Project Mogul.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#99    skyeagle409

skyeagle409

    Forum Divinity

  • Member
  • 31,295 posts
  • Joined:14 Apr 2006
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:California

  • Keep Your Mach Up and Check Six

Posted 07 June 2011 - 06:11 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 06 June 2011 - 12:28 AM, said:

How many times have you been asked to read posts and counter debates with debate as opposed to an appeal to authority?

I can do so as I have been involved in classified matters while serving in the USAF. In fact, based on my OSI interviews, the Air Force allowed my co-workers to be reassigned to secret bases around the country. To furhter add to that, I am well aware of how we conduct secret operations in regards to our classified assets, which once again, my statement that  Project Mogul was not indicative of any classified program run by our military services.

Quote

Yes Project MOGUL was indeed classified, the balloons were not.

Project Mogul was never a classifed program. The Air Force mislead people on Project Mogul The fact that Mogul balloon operations was recorded in unclassified reccords of A. P. Crary, told us right there that Project Mogul was nothing more than an unclassified research project and nothing else.

Commander McLauglin's unclassified letter, which mentioned Projject Mogul by name was another clue that Project Mogul was not a classified project at all. I must also mention that Project Moby Dick was not a Project Mogul balloon train.

Edited by skyeagle409, 07 June 2011 - 06:13 AM.

KEEP YOUR MACH UP AND CHECK SIX

#100    Valdemar the Great

Valdemar the Great

    a dark, sarcastic, depressing blanket of nihilism

  • Member
  • 25,348 posts
  • Joined:09 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:there

  • Vampires are people too.

Posted 07 June 2011 - 06:39 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 07 June 2011 - 02:54 AM, said:

Are you just being facetious?
No i'm not. You've read the theory; does that sound more plausible than the suggestion that it may have been (say) a probe from another civilisation? I don't think it does.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


:cat:


#101    psyche101

psyche101

    Conspiracy Realist

  • Member
  • 32,072 posts
  • Joined:30 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oz

  • If you stop to think, Remember to start again

Posted 07 June 2011 - 06:44 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 07 June 2011 - 05:53 AM, said:

It was well known that the Soviet's first blast could be detected by air samples, and that is how the Soviet's frist blast was detected. Project Mogul was nothing more than research, and not anything to do with spying on the Soviets.

Absolute rubbish. I would like to see you back that claim. MOGUL's primary purpose was to develop a system that would specifically assist in detecting Soviet bomb blasts. It would be a quicker way to accomplish this as the WB-29 collected Air Samples. The WB-29 discovered the first traces of radioactivity but it was not all that efficient was it? When it was finally picked up, it was the 112th alert, and more flights were required to gather the initial find. It took weeks. I will grant only that it was ironic that it was a declassified project that finally made the discovery. During 1947-1949, a complex process of review and decision at the Defense Department led to the creation of an "Interim Surveillance Research Net" that was operating routinely by the spring of 1949. A more comprehensive surveillance system integrating radiochemical, seismic, acoustic, and other methods was not yet in place.

View Postskyeagle409, on 07 June 2011 - 05:53 AM, said:

But,, Project Mogul was nothing more than a research project. As mentioned before, its experiments were posted in newspapers around the country and, Mogul balloons had questionnairs attached so ordinary civilians who recovered Project Mogul balloons, could add their own data input such as time and location and of the decent rate, etc. In fact, Mogul balloons were recovered by ordinary civilians for rewards and reward tags were attached to Mogul balloons as well.

Good God man, how many times do I need to explain this to you?

The papers called MOGUL a test to detect Cosmic rays. Please offer a headline that says MOGUL to validate your nonsense. The reward tags were for recovery of assets, you forgot to mention that the tags even contained false information that the equipment was volatile to deter those that wanted to figure out what the primary purpose of the experiment was. The data was sensitive, the Ballons themselves and the payload contained no information detrimental to the project. Remember how I posted the definitions for project and balloon? Have another look at that.

View Postskyeagle409, on 07 June 2011 - 05:53 AM, said:

What it all means is this, Project Mogul was not indicative of a classified program,. You don't involve ordinary civilians without securtiy clearances in any classified program, and yet, ordinary civilans became involved in the recovery of Project Mogul balloons. When I read where the Air Force has said that Project Mogul was a classfied program, then I knew that a cover-up was in progress, because that is not what the Air Force taught us in regards to classifed prorams in our classes.

What this means is that you have skimmed over the information to form your own conclusion. MOGUL was indeed a classified program. Your own links agree with me. You know the engineers analysis that I knocked down for you? It says:

Quote

All components and systems were ordinary off-the-shelf items; only the Mogul program objective was classified.

And what does Kevin Randlesay?

Quote

The ultimate purpose, to launch these constant level balloons and send them over the Soviet Union to spy on their atomic programs was classified. The men working in New Mexico probably didnít know that. All they knew was that they were trying to keep the balloons at a certain altitude for a certain length of time.

And for the sides of the fence, here is a credulous site, it says:

Quote

Even though Project Mogul was classified, the kind of threats received by civilians went far beyond the restrictions imposed upon civilians for any other classified project in United States history.

Global Security.orgsite says:

Quote

MOGUL, in other words, was conducted as a compartmented, classified project in which participants knew only what they needed to know, and no more.

You are the Roswell Anti-Authority.

Why do you keep harping on about MOGUL when you know very well that the point is moot in light of Lost Shamans Intelligence Hypothesis?

View Postskyeagle409, on 07 June 2011 - 05:53 AM, said:

Well, I am leaving Texas  soon after 3 1/2 years and heading back home to California and Roswell will happen be on the road on my way home as I pass through New Mexico.

Thank the lord I do not live in California. Time to visit Big D I reckon.

View Postskyeagle409, on 07 June 2011 - 05:53 AM, said:

Balloon projects were conducted in the area, and I might add that the balloon teams in New Mexico were also reporting obserrving and  tracking flying saucers during their experiments and of course, one of them was none other than Charles Moore, who reported tracking a flying saucer,  and Charles Moore's sighting was confirmed by other scientist who have  worked with him  as well.

So what we have here is, not  only were civilians and military personnel reporting flying saucers over the area in New Mexico, but balloons scientist have now made it known that they were also observing and tracking flying saucers as well.

Charles Moores report can be read here.



In addition:


Project Mogul UFO Sightings


One of the ironies of using Project Mogul to try to explain away the Roswell case and other New Mexico sightings is that Mogul and later Skyhook balloon personnel themselves contributed many high-quality UFO sightings.


One very famous Mogul sighting involved Charles Moore on April 24, 1949.  An additional irony here is that this is the same Charles Moore that has been trying so hard in the present-day to debunk the Roswell caseas one of his Mogul balloons.  Moore's sighting was written up in the equally famous 1952 LIFE Magazine article of high-quality UFO reports and in a 1950 TRUE Magazine article by Naval Commander Robert B. McLaughlin, head of the Naval missile program at White Sands (who unequivocally stated that the flying saucers being spotted by White Sands personnel, including himself, were not only real but extraterrestrial in origin).  Moore's sighting is also found in a number of government documents, including those of the CIA, whose scientists were very impressed by it.

My link


This is the same man who blames Roswell on MOGUL. You sure about this interpretation? Do you support Charles Moore in everything he says?

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#102    psyche101

psyche101

    Conspiracy Realist

  • Member
  • 32,072 posts
  • Joined:30 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oz

  • If you stop to think, Remember to start again

Posted 07 June 2011 - 07:00 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 07 June 2011 - 06:00 AM, said:

I have been involved in classified matter while serving in the Air Force and in fact, I faced OSI interviews to vouch for the characters of my co-workers who were to be sent to secret bases within the United States, and, I have well aware of how we conduct classified projects within the Air For rce, which is why I have stated for the record that  Project Mogul was not a classified project by any means and was never indicative of any classified program.

Pffft, I have told you that if you served, I do not believe it was more than Janitorial. OSI indeed.

Another appeal to authority that has let you down.

View Postskyeagle409, on 07 June 2011 - 06:00 AM, said:

You do not allow ordinary civilians with no security clearances to even come near any classified project and yet, Project Mogul folks allowed ordinary civilians to recover Mogul balloons for reward and to even add their own input on Mogul balloon questionnaires.

How many civillians were privy to the collected data? Tat was the part which maintained a classified status. I have explained this to you in great detail. You seem to really struggle with the ideal of compartmentalisation.

View Postskyeagle409, on 07 June 2011 - 06:00 AM, said:

What I can say about all of that is, the Air Force did a fantastic job of duping many folks on Project Mogul.

You would not know.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#103    psyche101

psyche101

    Conspiracy Realist

  • Member
  • 32,072 posts
  • Joined:30 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oz

  • If you stop to think, Remember to start again

Posted 07 June 2011 - 07:04 AM

View Postskyeagle409, on 07 June 2011 - 06:11 AM, said:

I can do so as I have been involved in classified matters while serving in the USAF. In fact, based on my OSI interviews, the Air Force allowed my co-workers to be reassigned to secret bases around the country. To furhter add to that, I am well aware of how we conduct secret operations in regards to our classified assets, which once again, my statement that  Project Mogul was not indicative of any classified program run by our military services.



Project Mogul was never a classifed program. The Air Force mislead people on Project Mogul The fact that Mogul balloon operations was recorded in unclassified reccords of A. P. Crary, told us right there that Project Mogul was nothing more than an unclassified research project and nothing else.

Commander McLauglin's unclassified letter, which mentioned Projject Mogul by name was another clue that Project Mogul was not a classified project at all. I must also mention that Project Moby Dick was not a Project Mogul balloon train.


No point in addressing this, it has all been said on the last 2 post save for the McLauglin comment. And I do not need yet another chuckle via your claimed service record. Again you think a personal letter is public domain. When are you going to post a letter that I have written to prove your point, or do you plan to just keep making the same claim without validating yourself endlessly? Personel correspondance, whilst not classified, is not public domain. Please try to wrap your head around this.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#104    psyche101

psyche101

    Conspiracy Realist

  • Member
  • 32,072 posts
  • Joined:30 Nov 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:Oz

  • If you stop to think, Remember to start again

Posted 07 June 2011 - 07:10 AM

View Post747400, on 07 June 2011 - 06:39 AM, said:

No i'm not. You've read the theory; does that sound more plausible than the suggestion that it may have been (say) a probe from another civilisation? I don't think it does.


Whilst the russian tale does not seem likely, the components of the tale do exist, and are here, unlike our friends the LGM. Whilst LGM surely exist, they only exist here on earth in our imagination.

I do not think ET is more likely. The crashed story is more likely, but neither tale has any substance, nor a reason to believe them. I think it is what the Roswell ETH should consist of. Light entertainment that is not meant to be taken seriously, and I do feel the research and proof offered reflect just that. If I had a gun to my head and had to choose one of the two, I would go with the Russians.

Things are what they are. - Me Reality can't be debunked. That's the beauty of it. - Capeo If I have seen further it is by standing on the shoulders of giants. - Sir Isaac Newton Let me repeat the lesson learned from the Sturrock scientific review panel: Pack up your old data and forget it. Ufology needs new data, new cases, new rigorous and scientific methodologies if it hopes ever to get out of its pit. - Ed Stewart Youtube is the last refuge of the ignorant and is more often used for disinformation than genuine research.  There is a REASON for PEER REVIEW... - Chrlzs Nothing is inexplicable, just unexplained. - Dr Who

#105    Valdemar the Great

Valdemar the Great

    a dark, sarcastic, depressing blanket of nihilism

  • Member
  • 25,348 posts
  • Joined:09 May 2005
  • Gender:Male
  • Location:there

  • Vampires are people too.

Posted 07 June 2011 - 09:12 AM

View Postpsyche101, on 07 June 2011 - 07:10 AM, said:

Whilst the russian tale does not seem likely, the components of the tale do exist, and are here, unlike our friends the LGM. Whilst LGM surely exist, they only exist here on earth in our imagination.

I do not think ET is more likely. The crashed story is more likely, but neither tale has any substance, nor a reason to believe them. I think it is what the Roswell ETH should consist of. Light entertainment that is not meant to be taken seriously, and I do feel the research and proof offered reflect just that. If I had a gun to my head and had to choose one of the two, I would go with the Russians.
Welll... the components if the tale that we do know exist are;
* Josef Stalin;
* Joseph Mengele; and
* the Horten bomber.
The components that we don't know existed are that:
* Stalin cooperated with Mengele in genetically Engineering mutoids;
* that the USSR developed a bomber, with transatlantic range, based on the Horten design,
and, even more so, that
* Stalin would then have risked a war with the US, at a time when the US had the Bomb and he didn't, by deliberately intruding into US airspace with a Russian bomber.
I think just saying "oh, Stalin was evil and mad" doesn't, as they say, fly as an explanation; he may have been evil, but I don't think he was mad. Paranoid, yes, but not mad in the sense of provoking WWIII just two years after his country had lost millions in WWII.

Life is a hideous business, and from the background behind what we know of it peer daemoniacal hints of truth which make it sometimes a thousandfold more hideous.

H. P. Lovecraft.


:cat:





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users