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#31    Esoteric Toad

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 09:18 PM

I am always amazed that some people believe any ancient mythology as factual. Keep in mind that people in ancient times did not understand nature and science as we do now. If something wasn't easily explainable it was automatically given supernatural characteristics. Dragons could have simply been derived from dionaurs bones (look at the skull of almost any dinosaur, striking similiarity to 'dragons') or elobarorated examples of ordinary animals. Sailors did that with whales, manatees (duodongs), oar fish, octopus and squid. Then there is the religious aspect. Many animals where elevated to spirits or gods. A god or spirit cannot be just like the mundane critter in question, it has to have super amazing powers. Can a snake fly? No (well some can glide by jumping out of trees and flattening themselves). No problem, the snake god can fly AND breath fire!!! This doesn't just apply to things such as dragons. Almost all mythological beasties are either allegorical or exaggerations of real animals. Keep in mind, at one time if you went wandering off in the woods there was a good chance you would not return (assuming you went alone). How would it be explained? Grog was eating by a bear. Then Grog was eaten by a montrous acid spewing super bear. Good deterant to keep little ones from roaming off on their on.

Read about Europe during the dark ages. Most of Europe was covered in thick forest. At night they had no street lights and highways. People who ventured out at night truly did risk their lives either by becoming prey to animals or highwaymen.

Stories of magical creatures and critters sprang up around these real things. JMO.


#32    Bracket

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 09:33 PM

View PostEsoteric Toad, on 26 May 2011 - 09:18 PM, said:

I am always amazed that some people believe any ancient mythology as factual. Keep in mind that people in ancient times did not understand nature and science as we do now. If something wasn't easily explainable it was automatically given supernatural characteristics. Dragons could have simply been derived from dionaurs bones (look at the skull of almost any dinosaur, striking similiarity to 'dragons') or elobarorated examples of ordinary animals. Sailors did that with whales, manatees (duodongs), oar fish, octopus and squid. Then there is the religious aspect. Many animals where elevated to spirits or gods. A god or spirit cannot be just like the mundane critter in question, it has to have super amazing powers. Can a snake fly? No (well some can glide by jumping out of trees and flattening themselves). No problem, the snake god can fly AND breath fire!!! This doesn't just apply to things such as dragons. Almost all mythological beasties are either allegorical or exaggerations of real animals. Keep in mind, at one time if you went wandering off in the woods there was a good chance you would not return (assuming you went alone). How would it be explained? Grog was eating by a bear. Then Grog was eaten by a montrous acid spewing super bear. Good deterant to keep little ones from roaming off on their on.

Read about Europe during the dark ages. Most of Europe was covered in thick forest. At night they had no street lights and highways. People who ventured out at night truly did risk their lives either by becoming prey to animals or highwaymen.

Stories of magical creatures and critters sprang up around these real things. JMO.

I completely agree.  :tu:

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#33    Farmer77

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Posted 26 May 2011 - 11:09 PM

No I don't believe the prototypical fire breathing dragon existed. I do think however it is highly possible that early man did have encounters with holdover populations of prehistoric creatures which would appear as dragons to them.

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#34    Soul Kitchen

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 01:35 AM

View PostDrakester, on 25 May 2011 - 03:17 PM, said:

I think Soul Kitchen was thinking of the dragon that was worshipped as a living god by the Babylonians and that was eventually slain by Daniel. The dragon is never said to be a flying creature, but it could perfectly be a giant snake (python) or a crocodile. Remember that dragon comes from old greek for serpent/snake.

There's also the symbolic dragon that represents the Devil in both Genesis and the Apocalypse- once again, If I well recall, these were said described as serpents, not giant winged creatures. (Although since I'm not Christian I haven´t read the Bible many times...)
Both wrong, although somewhat right in an indirect way.

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#35    kitco

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 01:41 AM

**EDIT**

**Kitco, knock it off.  No further warnings will be given.**


Edited by aquatus1, 27 May 2011 - 02:40 AM.

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#36    Aros

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Posted 27 May 2011 - 10:03 PM

Well there is still lots of places on this planet we haven't fully explored yet such as the ocean or beneath the earths surface so their could be a small possibility they could be there. Diffrent cultures considerd dragons as evil beings or good beings that if you cook up right(i prefer my dragon cooked with garlic and basil)would grant immortality or some kind supernatural usefulness and hunted down, kind of like most close to extinction animals that would go to extremes to hide itself from hunters. I'm not sure this may apply to dragons but there have been cases where animals are forced to evolve because of persisting predators(Im not talking about extremes here just small things like color,size,habits,or reproduction). For remains of dragons like the flying ones you would kind of assume they would perch in high mountain caves and the fact they could fly that would probably mean they had hollow bones which would disintegrate pretty fast. I could go on on about this crap but as it stands now it only comes to three things (1)they were all wiped out (2)they are just figments of ancient imagination (3)they are out there just waiting for us to find them.

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#37    Elric

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 03:33 AM

So it might not be something like in paintings, but something similar. A big reptile with some sort of ability to fly.So do you think if they existed, would they be a threat or in peace with humanity?

Edited by superdarkyoshi, 28 May 2011 - 03:35 AM.


#38    Long_Gone

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 08:48 AM

View Postsuperdarkyoshi, on 28 May 2011 - 03:33 AM, said:

So it might not be something like in paintings, but something similar. A big reptile with some sort of ability to fly.So do you think if they existed, would they be a threat or in peace with humanity?

A huge flying, predatory reptile going undetected up until now. Don't think so.


#39    Zantetsuken

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 10:34 AM

View PostDieChecker, on 25 May 2011 - 01:26 AM, said:

Banned, but not forgotten. Very interesting theory, if pushed a little to hard. Said he was coming out with a book on Dragons in Christianity in 2006, which no one has seen yet.

So he got banned. Agree, he's got an interesting theory indeed. But this beings will remain a myth unless proven otherwise the theory remains a theory.

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#40    Blackwhite

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 02:08 PM

There are several creatures of what may be described as dragons that have turned up in England.

One of the North East of England's most famous legends concerns the Lambton Worm.

The story revolves around John Lambton, an heir of the Lambton Estate, County Durham, and his battle with a giant worm (dragon) which had been terrorising the local villages. As with most myths, details of the story change with each telling.

Origin of the worm

Posted Image

The story states that the young John Lambton was a rebellious character who missed church one Sunday to go fishing in the River Wear (pronounced "weir"). In many versions of the story, while walking to the river, or setting up his equipment, John receives warnings from an old man that no good can come from missing church.

John Lambton does not catch anything until the time the church service finishes, at which point he fishes out a small eel- or lamprey-like creature with nine holes on each side of its salamander-like head. Depending on the version of the story the worm is no bigger than a thumb, and in others it is about 3 feet long. In some renditions it has legs, while in others it is said to more closely resemble a snake.

At this point the old man returns, although in some versions it is a different character. John declares that he has caught the devil and decides to dispose of his catch by discarding it down a nearby well. The old man then issues further warnings about the nature of the beast.

John then forgets about the creature and eventually grows up. As a penance for his rebellious early years he joins the crusades.

The worm's wrath

Posted Image
Worm Hill, Fatfield, Washington, Tyne & Wear

Eventually the worm grows extremely large and the well becomes poisonous. The villagers start to notice livestock going missing and discover that the fully-grown worm has emerged from the well and coiled itself around a local hill (above).

In some versions of the story the hill is Penshaw Hill, that on which the Penshaw Monument now stands, but locally the credit goes to the nearby Worm Hill, in Fatfield. In most versions of the story the worm is large enough to wrap itself around the hill 7 times. It is said that one can still see the marks of the worm on Worm Hill.

Posted Image

The worm terrorises the nearby villages, eating sheep, preventing cows from producing milk and snatching away small children. It then heads towards Lambton Castle where the Lord (John Lambton's aged father) manages to sedate the creature in what becomes a daily ritual of offering the worm milk of nine good cows, twenty gallons, or a filled wooden/stone trough.

A number of brave villagers try to kill the beast but are quickly dispatched. When a chunk is cut off the worm it simply reattaches the missing piece. Visiting knights also try to assault the beast but none survive. When annoyed the worm would uproot trees by coiling its tail around them. It then created devastation by waving around the uprooted trees like a club.

The vanquishing of the worm

After seven years John Lambton returns from the crusade to find his father's estates almost destitute because of the worm. John decides to fight it but first seeks the guidance of a wise woman or witch near Durham.

The witch hardens John's resolve to kill the beast by explaining his responsibility for the worm. She tells him to cover his armour in spearheads and fight the worm in the River Wear, where it now spends its days wrapped around a great rock. The witch also tells John that after killing the worm he must then kill the first living thing he sees, or else his family will be cursed for nine generations and will not die in their beds.

John prepares his armour according to the witch's instructions and arranges with his father that when he has killed the worm he will sound his hunting horn three times. On this signal his father is to release his favourite hound so that it will run to John, who can then kill the dog and thus avoid the curse.

John Lambton then fights the worm by the river. The worm tries to crush him, wrapping him in its coils, but it cuts itself on his armour's spikes. As pieces of the worm are chopped off they are washed away by the river, preventing the worm from healing itself. Eventually the worm is dead and John sounds his hunting horn three times.

The Lambton curse

Unfortunately, John's father is so excited that the beast is dead that he forgets to release the hound and rushes out to congratulate his son. John cannot bear to kill his father and so, after they meet, the hound is released and dutifully dispatched. But it is too late and nine generations of Lambtons are cursed so they shall not die peacefully in their beds.

This curse seems to have held true for at least three generations, possibly helping to contribute to the popularity of the story.

1st generation: Robert Lambton, drowned at Newrig.
2nd: Sir William Lambton, a Colonel of Foot, killed at Marston Moor (English civil war).
3rd: William Lambton, died in battle at Wakefield.
9th: Henry Lambton, died in his carriage crossing Lambton Bridge on June 26, 1761.

(General Lambton, Henry Lambton's brother, is said to have kept a horse whip by his bedside to ward off violent assaults. He died in his bed at an old age.)


http://en.wikipedia....ki/Lambton_Worm

Edited by Blackwhite, 28 May 2011 - 02:16 PM.


#41    Blackwhite

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 02:25 PM

And here are more British dragons.

Britain, of course, abounds in dragon mythology.  St George, the patron saint of England and whose symbol (red cross on a white background) is used as England's flag, famously slayed a dragon.  

Wales, of course, has a red dragon, the Ddraig Goch (Welsh for "red dragon"), on its national flag. As late as the 17th century, dragons were reported to have arrived in parts of England, frightening the local country folk. The most recent was in a chapbook of 1669, referring to a winged serpent nine feet long and ‘as thick as a man’s leg’ at Henham in Essex. Here are some of the UK'’s most voracious dragons:

1) Aller, Somerset: A flying serpent poisoned everything it flew over with its venomous breath;
2) Bamburgh, Northumberland: The Laidley Worm ‘laid waste to the country for miles around’;
3) Bisterne, Hampshire: ‘A particularly dreadful dragon’;
4) Bures, Suffolk: A dragon which appeared in 1405 ate a shepherd and then his sheep;
5) Cardiff: A dragon sucked down swimmers in the River Taff and feasted on them;
6) Cornwall: At an unspecified location, a huge snake ‘which tore men and cattle to pieces’;
7) Deerhurst, Gloucestershire: A serpent ‘of prodigious bigness’ fed on cattle and poisoned people with its breath;
8 ) Dundee, Forfarshire: A dragon here devoured nine maidens;
9) Horsham, Sussex: A fearsome dragon was slain here by St Leonard in the 6th century, but it turned up again in 1614;
10) Lambton, Durham: The colossal Lambton Worm was the terror of the countryside but also liked drinking milk;
11) Moston, Cheshire: A dragon here was overly fond of eating children;
12) Nunnington, Yorkshire: A dragon with ‘teeth like pitchforks and a venomous tongue’;
13) Orkney: The Stoor Worm would sweep entire villages into the sea with his forked tongue and crush ships so he could devour the sailors;
14) Severn Estuary: A vicious dragon living in the river’s mouth defeated even King Arthur and his Knights;
15) Taunton, Devon: A dragon which ‘caused great damage and loss of life’.

[Sources: ‘British Dragons' by Jacqueline Simpson, (1980); ‘Folklore, Myths and Legends of Britain' (Reader's Digest, 1973)]

In the early 19th century folklorist Mary Trevelyan interviewed many elderly people living in the Glamorgan area of Wales. They recounted memories from their youth (early 19th century) of a race of winged serpents said to inhabit the forest around Penllyne Castle. They had crested heads and feathery wings. The serpents were brightly coloured and sparkled as if covered with jewels. They rested coiled on the ground but if threatened would attack by swooping down at their aggressors.

The snakes killed poultry and were described as ‘the terrors of farmyards and coverts’. Many were shot for their depredations of livestock. One woman recalled that her grandfather shot one after it attacked him. Its skin had hung for years on the wall at his farm. Tragically this artifact was discarded after his death: a fact that would make any modern day cryptozoologist wince.

A dragon skin was once said to hang in the church in Sexhow, Cleveland. The forest-dwelling worm was slain by a knight and the skin kept as a relic hung on pegs in the church. This skin has also long since vanished.  Cromwell'’s men (the Parliamentarians or "Roundheads") probably destroyed it after the Civil War. A portion of the hide of the Lambton worm was supposedly kept on display at Lambton castle. It was said to resemble cow’s hide. The specimen was lost when the castle was demolished in the 18th century.

http://www.uncannyuk...re-dragon-lore/

Edited by Blackwhite, 28 May 2011 - 02:32 PM.


#42    The Gremlin

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 09:32 PM

i like the way this thread has progressed, makes a welcome change.
:tu:
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lest we forget. :rolleyes:

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#43    Drakester

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Posted 28 May 2011 - 10:46 PM

View PostBlackwhite, on 28 May 2011 - 02:25 PM, said:

And here are more British dragons.

Britain, of course, abounds in dragon mythology.  St George, the patron saint of England and whose symbol (red cross on a white background) is used as England's flag, famously slayed a dragon.  

Wales, of course, has a red dragon, the Ddraig Goch (Welsh for "red dragon"), on its national flag. As late as the 17th century, dragons were reported to have arrived in parts of England, frightening the local country folk. The most recent was in a chapbook of 1669, referring to a winged serpent nine feet long and ‘as thick as a man’s leg’ at Henham in Essex. Here are some of the UK'’s most voracious dragons:

1) Aller, Somerset: A flying serpent poisoned everything it flew over with its venomous breath;
2) Bamburgh, Northumberland: The Laidley Worm ‘laid waste to the country for miles around’;
3) Bisterne, Hampshire: ‘A particularly dreadful dragon’;
4) Bures, Suffolk: A dragon which appeared in 1405 ate a shepherd and then his sheep;
5) Cardiff: A dragon sucked down swimmers in the River Taff and feasted on them;
6) Cornwall: At an unspecified location, a huge snake ‘which tore men and cattle to pieces’;
7) Deerhurst, Gloucestershire: A serpent ‘of prodigious bigness’ fed on cattle and poisoned people with its breath;
8 ) Dundee, Forfarshire: A dragon here devoured nine maidens;
9) Horsham, Sussex: A fearsome dragon was slain here by St Leonard in the 6th century, but it turned up again in 1614;
10) Lambton, Durham: The colossal Lambton Worm was the terror of the countryside but also liked drinking milk;
11) Moston, Cheshire: A dragon here was overly fond of eating children;
12) Nunnington, Yorkshire: A dragon with ‘teeth like pitchforks and a venomous tongue’;
13) Orkney: The Stoor Worm would sweep entire villages into the sea with his forked tongue and crush ships so he could devour the sailors;
14) Severn Estuary: A vicious dragon living in the river’s mouth defeated even King Arthur and his Knights;
15) Taunton, Devon: A dragon which ‘caused great damage and loss of life’.

[Sources: ‘British Dragons' by Jacqueline Simpson, (1980); ‘Folklore, Myths and Legends of Britain' (Reader's Digest, 1973)]

In the early 19th century folklorist Mary Trevelyan interviewed many elderly people living in the Glamorgan area of Wales. They recounted memories from their youth (early 19th century) of a race of winged serpents said to inhabit the forest around Penllyne Castle. They had crested heads and feathery wings. The serpents were brightly coloured and sparkled as if covered with jewels. They rested coiled on the ground but if threatened would attack by swooping down at their aggressors.

The snakes killed poultry and were described as ‘the terrors of farmyards and coverts’. Many were shot for their depredations of livestock. One woman recalled that her grandfather shot one after it attacked him. Its skin had hung for years on the wall at his farm. Tragically this artifact was discarded after his death: a fact that would make any modern day cryptozoologist wince.

A dragon skin was once said to hang in the church in Sexhow, Cleveland. The forest-dwelling worm was slain by a knight and the skin kept as a relic hung on pegs in the church. This skin has also long since vanished.  Cromwell'’s men (the Parliamentarians or "Roundheads") probably destroyed it after the Civil War. A portion of the hide of the Lambton worm was supposedly kept on display at Lambton castle. It was said to resemble cow’s hide. The specimen was lost when the castle was demolished in the 18th century.

http://www.uncannyuk...re-dragon-lore/

It's not that I believe all this stuff, but this info is molten gold. Thanks! :D

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#44    cerberusxp

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 04:43 AM

Wanted to do something special for my 1,000th post but oh well. Click here Bures Dragon Then open your Google earth and put in 51 58'28 60" N  0 45'31 94" E
The calciferous remains of a Dragon? Looks like the mere has dried out!

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#45    Apopo

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Posted 08 September 2012 - 07:49 AM

Imagination + crocodiles/constrictors = legends of dragons.

Like Drakester said, the Chinese attributed many different creatures' fossils to different features of the dragon.

"A fool sees not the same tree that a wise man sees"




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