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USA mass murders?!


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#91    dekker87

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 01:48 PM

View PostFLOMBIE, on 02 June 2011 - 01:36 PM, said:

Jesus Christ... I am for sure not full of anti-american hatred! What makes you say that? And like I stated before, if it was under direct order or not can be disputed!

that wasn't particularly aimed at you.....

and no...it isn't able to be disputed - a court found thus:

Quote

In a four-month-long trial, despite claims that he was following orders from his commanding officer, Captain Medina, Calley was convicted, on March 29, 1971, of premeditated murder for ordering the shootings.



#92    rashore

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 01:51 PM

Dekker.... What are the perimeters for the argument you started?


#93    dekker87

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 01:52 PM

View Postrashore, on 02 June 2011 - 01:46 PM, said:

ok, so it's not just USA mass murder...

It has to be several non-military people, not during war, not collateral damage.. By direct order of the government. Oops and soldiers doing their own thing don't count. Death via US support or sanction don't count either.

Is that about right for the perimeters of this Dekker?

edit: and it has to be since 1950

:lol:

it''s quite simple...most others have grasped it...i don't know why you're finding it so difficult...

mass murder committed by the US military under direct orders to carry out such murders as a US policy...in the years since the end of WW2.

i didnt put the 60yr parameter on it!


#94    rashore

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:01 PM

View Postdekker87, on 02 June 2011 - 01:52 PM, said:

:lol:

it''s quite simple...most others have grasped it...i don't know why you're finding it so difficult...

mass murder committed by the US military under direct orders to carry out such murders as a US policy...in the years since the end of WW2.

i didnt put the 60yr parameter on it!

I'm guessing folks are putting the 60 years on it since you made that parameter in your first post.

I'm not trying to be difficult, just trying to be clear about what sort of examples would be acceptable. You didn't really make that clear at first, it was just prove someones comments in another thread right.


#95    dekker87

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:02 PM

View Postrashore, on 02 June 2011 - 01:51 PM, said:

Dekker.... What are the perimeters for the argument you started?

about 4.5",

the parameters are as posted above.

just to clarify exactly what prompted this thread - hence the parAmeters set i'll requote the comment which provoked it:


Quote

Q came into the thread and made a statement about how the U.S. has been commiting mass murder for decades (since WW2 I think he said) - which is entirely true and not even controversial when one has only a quick look at history. But he was then ridiculed by other posters for making such an "absurd" claim. These posters clearly had no idea (or had shut their brains off to the relevant parts housing such acts) of their own history.

how long is this 'quick look at history' goin to take?

7 pages now and nothing is, as yet, indisputable and only one - cambodia / laos is even a reasonable case of us military endorsed mass killings.

Edited by dekker87, 02 June 2011 - 02:03 PM.


#96    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:14 PM

View Postdekker87, on 02 June 2011 - 01:52 PM, said:

mass murder committed by the US military under direct orders to carry out such murders as a US policy...in the years since the end of WW2.

Where did I add that qualifier? As far as I'm aware, you've added that part on yourself.

Edited by expandmymind, 02 June 2011 - 02:15 PM.


#97    Spark Plug

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:25 PM

View Postdekker87, on 02 June 2011 - 01:52 PM, said:

:lol:

it''s quite simple...most others have grasped it...i don't know why you're finding it so difficult...

mass murder committed by the US military under direct orders to carry out such murders as a US policy...in the years since the end of WW2.

i didnt put the 60yr parameter on it!

Just in case this debate is being watched let me point out the following -
1. I am a loyal and patriotic citizen.
2. I love Democracy and freedom.

I'm not onboard with the guy I've quoted and dont agree which anything hes saying.


#98    dekker87

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:35 PM

View Postexpandmymind, on 02 June 2011 - 02:14 PM, said:

Where did I add that qualifier? As far as I'm aware, you've added that part on yourself.

then offer us us your own classification that counts as 'the us committing mass killings' then..

you still claim that to be the case by the way?

you must be doubting yourself by now....


#99    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:40 PM

And just to be clear Dekker, you don't feel that the U.S. directing, training, arming, funding and supporting the terrorist dictators in, say, South America, is the U.S. committing murder?

This is quite silly, when we consider that most of the time the reason that the U.S. has created and propped up these men and groups was to quell popular social uprisings - there is no other way to do this other than to use excessive force, i.e. murder. Not only murder, but extreme torture also. All of which the U.S. was fully aware of.

This has been laid out in the International Court. After the case with Nicaragua the U.S. was found to be complicent in its actions:


[The Court]Decides that the United States of America, by training, arming, equipping, financing and supplying the contra forces or otherwise encouraging, supporting and aiding military and paramilitary activities in and against Nicaragua, has acted, against the Republic of Nicaragua, in breach of its obligation under customary international law not to intervene in the affairs of another State;


http://en.wikipedia....States#Judgment

This means that the attacks, although carried out by proxy, were an attack by the U.S., on Nicaragua. This is precedent in law.

What this basically means is that the U.S, any time it has acted in a manner similar to the case of Nicaragua, is in large part responsible for the actions carried out.

Especially when (in reference to the tens of thousands who were killed by the U.S. backed forces), to quote Noam Chomsky:

The National Guard had always been remarkably brutal and sadistic. By June 1979, it was carrying out massive atrocities in the war against the Sandinistas, bombing residential neighborhoods in Managua, killing tens of thousands of people. At that point, the US ambassador sent a cable to the White House saying it would be "ill-advised" to tell the Guard to call off the bombing, because that might interfere with the policy of keeping them in power and the Sandinistas out.

The U.S. knew of, and obviously had the ability to stop such attacks (which is paramount across the Globe).




Korean War Panel Finds U.S. Attacks on Civilians

http://www.nytimes.c...&pagewanted=all

Quote

SEOUL, South Korea — A commission charged with investigating wartime atrocities has found that American troops killed groups of South Korean civilians on 138 separate occasions during the Korean War.

But in a flurry of rulings made in the past few days, the commission decided not to seek compensation or criminal charges in about 130 of the cases either for lack of evidence or because it found that the killings were militarily justified.

The bold is nothing more than the NYT's opinion. But you get the jist.

And also as I have mentioned, claiming ignorance (according to international law) is just as bad as "full knowledge". What this means is that if you drop a bomb on a target you THINK may house civilians, then you are attacking the civilians as if you were attacking them directly.

Quote

Bombing North Korea

On 12 August 1950 the USAF dropped 625 tons of bombs on North Korea; two weeks later, the daily tonnage increased to some 800 tons.[143] Bruce Cummings, a historian at the University of Chicago, has said that U.S. warplanes dropped more napalm and bombs on North Korea than they did during the whole pacific campaign of WW2.[144]

As a result, eighteen of North Korea's cities were more than 50% destroyed. The war's highest-ranking American POW, US Major General William F. Dean,[145] reported that most of the North Korean cities and villages he saw were either ruins or snow-covered wastelands.[146]

As well as conventional bombing, the Communist side claimed that the USA had used biological weapons.

http://en.wikipedia....ing_North_Korea

When you destroy 50% of entire cities, the results are mass murder. This is not even in question when it comes to the British or German bombing of cities, just for the record.

Edited by expandmymind, 02 June 2011 - 02:45 PM.


#100    dekker87

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:40 PM

View PostSpark Plug, on 02 June 2011 - 02:25 PM, said:

Just in case this debate is being watched let me point out the following -
1. I am a loyal and patriotic citizen.
2. I love Democracy and freedom.

I'm not onboard with the guy I've quoted and dont agree which anything hes saying.

:lol:

i'm finding it pretty difficult to understand why you think the authorities would be interested in me...

odd.


#101    Spark Plug

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:41 PM

View Postdekker87, on 02 June 2011 - 02:35 PM, said:

then offer us us your own classification that counts as 'the us committing mass killings' then..

you still claim that to be the case by the way?

you must be doubting yourself by now....

When it comes to war there is a grey area.

For example if you're a solider in Afganistan how do you react when Taliban troops are getting their wives and children to throw the grenades at you? What do you do if instead of openly fighting you on the battlefield the Taliban dresses as civilians and takes up residence in a town?

If you start shooting the women, children and residents your enemy distorts it and says you're targetting civilians.

Dont be so naive Mr Conspiracy.


#102    Spark Plug

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:45 PM

View Postdekker87, on 02 June 2011 - 02:40 PM, said:

:lol:

i'm finding it pretty difficult to understand why you think the authorities would be interested in me...

odd.

I dont know about the US but in the UK and EU everyones emails and text messages are stored for 5 years.


#103    dekker87

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:47 PM

Quote

And just to be clear Dekker, you don't feel that the U.S. directing, training, arming, funding and supporting the terrorist dictators in, say, South America, is the U.S. committing murder?

:lol:

no!!! because it isn't!!

the us actions may be immoral and 'wrong' but they aren't committing mass murder themselves.

Quote

This is quite silly, when we consider that most of the time the reason that the U.S. has created and propped up these men and groups was to quell popular social uprisings - there is no other way to do this other than to use excessive force, i.e. murder. Not only murder, but extreme torture also. All of which the U.S. was fully aware of.

they created and propped up no-one....you seem to see ANY us involvement as meaning the US in in charge - a very naive and dare i say childish and simplistic view of the world.


Quote

This has been laid out in the International Court. After the case with Nicaragua the U.S. was found to be complicent in its actions:


[The Court]Decides that the United States of America, by training, arming, equipping, financing and supplying the contra forces or otherwise encouraging, supporting and aiding military and paramilitary activities in and against Nicaragua, has acted, against the Republic of Nicaragua, in breach of its obligation under customary international law not to intervene in the affairs of another State;


http://en.wikipedia....States#Judgment

This means that the attacks, although carried out by proxy, were an attack by the U.S., on Nicaragua. This is precedent in law.

What this basically means is that the U.S, any time it has acted in a manner similar to the case of Nicaragua, is in large part responsible for the actions carried out.

what it doesnt mean is that the US carried out mass murder!!

:lol:


Quote

Especially when (in reference to the tens of thousands who were killed by the U.S. backed forces), to quote Noam Chomsky:

The National Guard had always been remarkably brutal and sadistic. By June 1979, it was carrying out massive atrocities in the war against the Sandinistas, bombing residential neighborhoods in Managua, killing tens of thousands of people. At that point, the US ambassador sent a cable to the White House saying it would be "ill-advised" to tell the Guard to call off the bombing, because that might interfere with the policy of keeping them in power and the Sandinistas out.

The U.S. knew of, and obviously had the ability to stop such attacks (which is paramount across the Globe).

noam chomsky is a idiot but i digress....so what you're NOW saying is that because the US could have stopped the attacks and didnt that means it carried out the attacks!?!?

:wacko:

what!?!?


Quote

Korean War Panel Finds U.S. Attacks on Civilians

http://www.nytimes.c...&pagewanted=all

The bold is nothing more than the NYT's opinion. But you get the jist.

were these attacks by the US or by rogue servicemen who went a bit mental under wartime conditions?

were these attacks official US policy?

mate - you're really struggling now.....be honest with yourself...be intellectually honest with yourself...and admit that the US has not 'been commiting mass murder for decades' and that 'a quick look at history' actually proves otherwise.


#104    dekker87

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:49 PM

View PostSpark Plug, on 02 June 2011 - 02:41 PM, said:

When it comes to war there is a grey area.

For example if you're a solider in Afganistan how do you react when Taliban troops are getting their wives and children to throw the grenades at you? What do you do if instead of openly fighting you on the battlefield the Taliban dresses as civilians and takes up residence in a town?

If you start shooting the women, children and residents your enemy distorts it and says you're targetting civilians.

Dont be so naive Mr Conspiracy.

:lol:

errmmmmmmmmmmmmmm!!!!

are you quoting the wrong poster here?

because you're prety much agreeing with me...


#105    ExpandMyMind

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Posted 02 June 2011 - 02:51 PM

Quote

no!!! because it isn't!!

Actually, as the case with Nicaragua shows, it actually is.

Quote

what you're NOW saying is that because the US could have stopped the attacks and didnt that means it carried out the attacks

Anyone with even the slightest sense of morality knows that, essentially, they are the same.

And I edited my last post to add the part about 50% of entire cities in NK destroyed. Which, to be honest, isn't much different from entire Vietnamese villages being wiped out. Or Fallujah for that matter.

Edited by expandmymind, 02 June 2011 - 03:02 PM.





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